Close race and short tempers?

[Mills75]

why is it in the opinion of the people of this forum that even today in America that we have such divisions and sometimes such anger and resentment for one anothers views? I saw one marine stated to his girlfriend on the news that if she planned on voting for Kerry for President that she would not live to see election day and others punching and fighting over the same issues and political divisions.I personally feel strongly for the things I believe in but I sincerely respect the views of others and think that is the gift of choice of America to decide for yourself..So why is it that we have so many people prone to anger and violence when someone offers another side of the coin or a different perspective?

Have we still not yet grown enough as civilized people living in the 21st century to be able to disagree without coming to blows or threatening one another with violence and have we not yet learned that violence does not change hearts or minds but makes them stand only firmer in opposition?I can see someone standing firm and coming to life or death only for the most serious situations such as defending ones family or giving ones life for their country but why are we so willing to throw ourselves and our better nature and our sense of community away over things that our forefathers fought and died for and that is the right to be able to disagree with the next guy? Yes freedom and if one guy likes bush and one likes kerry and even if the ramifications are serious by choosing one or another we must still always remember and never forget that we are all Americans as one..I understand the emotions and the seriousness of political elections and that is why we must vote and encourage others to vote but one thing we must not do is forget ourselves and what our country stands for and act out in violence against another person with a different set of beliefs..

We all have the right to choose our leaders which is a wonderful thing but we never have the right to harm others who seek to do us no harm and only seek to express themselves and if we do then we act no better than the ones who try to scare our citizens and try to take those choices away..Other countries won't have to invade to take our choices if we act in violence against our own and do the work of the enemy for the enemy..Value peoples rights noone ever said you have to agree but step back and remember the person you're punching in the face is a fellow American citizen who might of had relatives die for your rights or one day might die himself for them..we can disagree and have differences but violence is not the answer and it serves no purpose and advances no idealogy or goal..Live and let live and Remember we are all Americans.Noone should be intimidated when it comes to casting a vote in a free and equal Democratic election..

Jeff

[Med Tech]

why is it in the opinion of the people of this forum that even today in America that we have such divisions and sometimes such anger and resentment for one anothers views?

ills75"]

I don't think it's just this election. I haven't met very many people who do NOT feel very strongly about something, usually a number of things. Abortion, casinos, guns, gods, soy, and everything in between, all equally important to whoever carries those issues. Without an outlet for stress relief, people can get violent quickly over the banal. Trying to discuss God, abortion, etc. can quickly devolve into a shoutfest.

Alot of this frenzy is fed by the media. Our issues used to be defined for us by our families. With seperation, new modes of family, a cultural explosion, the media, etc. etc. etc, too many things intrude into our daily lives, and it loses proportionality. And proportionality is the key. I've seen people who don't give a rip about politics the rest of the year go into a frenzy every presidential election.

[Bill Glasheen]

Part of the problem is the constant pounding by the media and by "interested parties" of their views. When you hear a candidate or a filmmaker say something against a position you hold so dearly...again, and again...with passion...and with distortion of the facts...it starts to wear at your protective veneer. There's only so much a person can take before they want to lash back out in some way.

It's possible for parties to pick unifying platforms. It's possible for visionaries to lead and to inspire. But when you have lawyers jumping into a state after an election, when you have filmmakers using their media to attack a leader's character with the spoken intent of destroying their political career, when you have news agencies stepping away from their traditional role of unbiased reporting of the news, well the gloves come off. When attacked, it is natural either to cower, flee, or counterattack.

This goes way back. IMO, the Republicans shouldn't feel entirely victimized. Even though Clinton is a scumbucket, a special prosecuter had no right spending millions investigating an elected president for a real estate deal, and finishing with charges against the same president for lieing about blowjobs in the oval office. That's a different piece of real estate altogether, my friend. So if it's OK for the Republican attack dogs to destroy a man by any means possible, don't be surprised when the liberal Hollywood media jumps in and wrestles with the pigs in their ****.

You reap what you sow.

And if Kerry/Edwards make it into the White House, it's only going to get worse. Bush's enemies are running out of material, and his supporters (48% of the eligible voters) have endured a year of constant abuse. Kerry and Edwards are fresh meat, and I can think of at least half a dozen points of vulnerability just off the top of my head. Mark my word - there will be no traditional honeymoon period.

I am not hopeful here. However when it smells bad, I'm going to call it like I see it.

But don't ever ask me what I really think...

- Bill

[Med Tech]

Have we still not yet grown enough as civilized people living in the 21st century to be able to disagree without coming to blows or threatening one another with violence and have we not yet learned that violence does not change hearts or minds but makes them stand only firmer in opposition? Jeff

I still don't get where people think we'll become more civilized as time goes by, simply because time has passed by. People are violent by nature. Without an outlet, it will come bubbling to the surface one way or another. We are not going to evolve out of this. All we can do is choose to be constructive with it. Politics has always been ugly. This stuff happens every four years, it's just becoming easier to hear about the whacked out stuff.

[Valkenar]

Last night on the Daily show, John Zogby was on and said something interesting. I can't find the exact quote, but when asked about how intense and divided this election is, he mentioned that his polling indicates neither side will accept the legitimacy of the opposing candidate's win of the election. Vive la revolucion? Let's hope not.

[IJ]

Is that new, though? Everyone who loses views the guy in the oval office as the president for the present. And when there was perhaps the most disputable election result in our history last time, there was nary a peep, and still, while partisan politics have directed election management in voter drives and election mechanics in key states like florida, there's little news of it (drowned out by followup reports on Simpson's lip synch and the latest shooting). I think we'll be ok.

[Bill Glasheen]

And when there was perhaps the most disputable election result in our history last time, there was nary a peep

Joke, right?

It started with jokes about Bush's lack of intelligence (never mind the degrees from Yale and Harvard), and finished with Farenheit 911 (they stole the election, killed Iraqi women and children, lied to us, etc., etc.). The only thing that interrupted it, Ian, was 3 thousand innocent people burning to death in an attack on our nation.

You are forgiven. You were working 24/7 saving lives while the poop was flying.

Perspective is a funny thing in a battle. It has a heck of a lot to do with which side of the gun you are looking at.

- Bill

P.S. I didn't even vote for the guy, and I'm pi$$ed

[IJ]

The comment I responded to hinted at revolution. What I meant was, while words predictably flew, generally the supreme court decision was quietly accepted. Words have flown many times before. Propaganda films were made accusing Clinton of murder, for example. This was all politics as usual. It bothers people when their team is under fire. And of course, people did have a reason to be po'd--including partisan politics in the key state which've continued into this cycle.

And while there were riots after the Sox beat the Yanks, including a death, over something of no tangible consequence, I believe the riot and death toll for the questionable election was zero.

[Mills75]

I agree the death of the young woman was tradgic and very unneccassary and sad agreed..

Jeff

[Mills75]

I believe the riot and death toll for the questionable election was zero.[/quote] by Ian

The way it's going it sounds crazy but I would not be surprised to see a death or a very bad injury the way these elections are so heated and so divided today.you could say they were just as divided then but I feel personally that the heat has been turned up a notch this time around..

Jeff

[Valkenar]

I feel personally that the heat has been turned up a notch this time around..

I think it has, definitely. There is some animosity towards Kerry because of his own traits (war protesting, voting record and so forth) but for the most part I think it's because Bush inspires such strong feeling. I am seriously considering moving out of the country if he wins. I really think he's that bad. And because one side feels strongly, the other side will tend to feel strongly as well. Also because he was president during 9/11 and because we're at war some people will become that much more strident.

[Dana Sheets]

If you move out then you turn your back on the long history of individuals who have worked against all adversity to make changes in our society.

What if all the abolitionists had moved away?
What if all those who fought for women's suffrage had moved away?
What if all those who marched for civil rights in the 60's and 70's had moved away?

Ours is not a history of walking away from the problem and leaving it for others to solve.

If not you, then who? Who will stand in your place and further your beliefs?

I strongly feel that each of us, as US citizens, has a duty to stand on the shoulders of the giants that helped us reach this point in history and continue forward with the good and important work of making this a country where there is freedom for all.

Dana

[Doug Erickson]

Justin, please do not take the following as a personal attack on you...this is a general rant.

I hear the idle threat every election year..."If so-and-so wins, I'm moving to [choose one: Canada, Britain, Denmark, etc]." And it infuriates me every time. Dana, your response to it was much more eloquent than mine. I say, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out." If you'll excuse my language.

The reason I feel so strongly about this is that for every politically disgruntled American citizen who would leave, there are a thousand potential immigrants who would give anything to take their place. Who would give their lives so their children could grow up in freedom. Who would come here if they could, and pursue every opportunity to try to pursue the American dream, whatever that means to them.

We live in one of a very small handful of countries where, if you disagree with/hate the president, you're free to (for example) produce a lie-filled hatchet job of a movie about him and make millions of dollars doing so. If anyone thinks they can do better than that somewhere else, then please, by all means.

So go out, support your candidate, and vote. And if you don't like the outcome and decide to take your bat and ball and leave the country, the rest of us won't be holding your spot for you. Someone who wants to be here will be taking your place the second your trailing foot crosses the border.

-Doug

[IJ]

I agree with you Dana. And I disagree with you (a wee bit) as well. It all depends on the severity of the problem you're speaking of. And what a move means to the problem.

Bush has some well known faults, but I think it would be a reach to say that he's so awful, and so much more awful than all the other politicians for hire, that despite all the other steps and individuals in our government, he can make this place not worth living in. Rigt now I'm slightly bummed that I don't get to vote in a "battleground" state, because my vote will have about zero chance of affecting the election results. On the other hand, I don't have to LIVE in a battleground state either.

I will say that I would move from Virginia if I still lived there or Ohio if I lived there and their current antigay ballot measure passes, as expected. I consider that a vote of sorts... why stay in some godforsaken hole where your neighbors have written and voted for legislation that makes you a second class citizen and impedes your pursuit of happiness? These two states are among the worst for cvil union legislation at present. Ohio in particular is also facing a serious brain drain, where people with advanced degrees (who happen to be more often open minded) are splitting. That would be my vote: I'd take my advanced degree and split and make my opinion felt that way after I was outvoted at the polls. I'd let the government know I was leaving and why, too. And I'd try to find out who held conventions in my former state, and write them about the issue, as well.

[Valkenar]

If you move out then you turn your back on the long history of individuals who have worked against all adversity to make changes in our society.

Remember that Amerca's history is also of people fleeing persecution, it's not only one of people fighting for their rights. But to some extent I do agree with you. You should stay to advocate for your beliefs, within reason. But I'm not sticking around for crystal nacht 2 as a police state develops. Am I exagerating? Yes. Yes, I am.

The question is, how much am I exagerating? Does indefinite detention for those even suspected of terrorist links (such as donating to greenpeace, for example, or certain anti-abortion groups) sound like a stepping stone? How about this alert system they've set up?

Bush's unjust war, orwellian doublespeak, economic insanity, trashing of the environment and so forth are more than just terribly embarassing, but I'm very unlikely to leave because of it. A police state, however, is not something to sit and tolerate.

When it comes to whether you should stay because it's a duty, the question is where the loyalty owed? Is it the geography or the ideology that matters? If the land ceases to be governed according to the ideology, then what?

This is the kind of thing that will make me leave.

Doug:

I hear the idle threat every election year..."If so-and-so wins, I'm moving to ...

For the most part it is idle, yes. I'm not going to boarding the first plane leaving once Bush is re-appointed. When I say seriously consider, I mean that I went to Canada's, Australia's and Ireland's immigratino web pages and spent some time finding out what their eligibility requirements are. But you're absolutey right, even if Bush gets to be president some more, chances are I will not move.

We live in one of a very small handful of countries where, if you disagree with/hate the president, you're free to (for example) produce a lie-filled hatchet job of a movie about him and make millions of dollars doing so.

That's not really true. The US has historically done a great job on freedom compared to most other parts of the world. Not perfect, but hard to match. However, there are many countries these days that offer free speech and the ability to criticize the government. It may not be a majority, but it's certainly not a very small handful. In what countries in Europe or Scandanavia can you not criticize the government? What aobut Australia, New Zealand or Japan? The US is not the only source of freedom on the planet.