possible 4th Uechi kata Suparenpei

[brothermanontario]

I have just finished viewing the tape of Mr. Glasheen doing Suparenpei. It sure looks on closer examination to have at least a few Uechi Ryu elements, and on more meticulous view to have a tremendous depth of interpretation of the hand movements of Sanchin Kata.

Any thoughts?

[Glenn]

Determining cause and effect is tricky here: Does it look like Uechi Ryu because it is related to Uechi Ryu or because a Uechi Ryu practitioner is performing it? If you look at the tape of Simon performing it, you can detect Simon's Goju Ryu influence coming through his performance. With any kata, the performer's background will show through, which can lead to a false impression of relatedness.

If I were to learn a Shorin Ryu (for example) kata, due to my Uechi Ryu background I suspect I would interprete movements and applications differently from a Shorin Ryu practitioner. Watching me perform it, Uechi Ryu practitioners unfamiliar with Shorin Ryu kata would likely say the kata I performed appears related to Uechi Ryu.

Of course that does not dictate that this Suparenpai is not related to Uechi Ryu, just that there are factors at work that will make such conclusions tenuous if not impossible if based solely on visual performances.

[Bill Glasheen]

Good point, Glenn.

But let's get even more complex than that. You remember the line they always told you about how after studying Sanseiryu, that you'd go back to the beginning (Sanchin) again with your training in circular fashion? Well... First, it's true. You cannot understand "mochi" (elastic movement) without exposure to Sanseiryu. Then once you do, you'll be killing yourself trying to get it into your Sanchin thrusts.

Well... The same thing happened once I started practicing the Fuzhou Suparinpei. Once the essence of that form penetrated my psyche, I began to see things in The Big Three that I hadn't seen before. I began not only to have a better understanding of this elasticity of movement, but also to understand energy flow from technique to technique a whole lot better.

Maybe it's a chi thing...

I've been doing Tsukenshitahaku no sai and Hamahiga no tonfa in my classes more lately, and taught the sai form at camp. I was taught these forms from 2 Okinawan Uechika at camp about 21 years ago. (Yonamine taught me the tonfa form. Sorry, but can't tell you the name of the fellow who taught me the sai form.) After watching George Schriefer do first the "Red Man" eiku form and then Uechi Sanseiryu kata, I immediately saw how he was doing something the Chinese have said you should do all along - do weapon forms to teach you how to do empty-hand forms. For the last few months, I've been having a devil of a time adding in a little hip thingie that George does in the shoken sukuiage uke. He got it from doing bo and eiku, and said he saw Narahiro Shinjo had done the same from the same source. You have to see it to believe it; it's a beautiful manifestation of the whole-body elasticity thing. Well... Teaching sai at camp this past August suddenly made me "get" it. Weapons provide a load against which you can learn how to do power movements, and with the extension they amplify both power and position error. Not only did I suddently "get" this thing I saw George do, but I was able to get CJ to do it (our muscular Uechika/dancer).

Plus... When I look at Tsukenshitahaku no sai and Hamahiga no tonfa, it now screams "Seisan!!" to me. All the elements are there. I can see why these great Uechi masters latched onto these classics. And when you see them, and see them done by a Uechika who understands them, you (hopefully) will see that, yes, those weapon forms and Uechi Seisan came from the same body of knowledge. Somewhere... Somehow...

The more you dig into this stuff, the more the BFOs (a McCarthyism, meaning Blinding Flashes of the Obvious) start to kick in. One person will practice Sanchin and Sanseiryu, and never see the connection. Another person will see how Sanseiryu cannot exist without Sanchin, and vice versa.

Bill

[Guest]

Bill wrote:

After watching George Schriefer do first the "Red Man" eiku form and then Uechi Sanseiryu kata, I immediately saw how he was doing something the Chinese have said you should do all along - do weapon forms to teach you how to do empty-hand forms. For the last few months, I've been having a devil of a time adding in a little hip thingie that George does in the shoken sukuiage uke. He got it from doing bo and eiku, and said he saw Narahiro Shinjo had done the same from the same source. You have to see it to believe it; it's a beautiful manifestation of the whole-body elasticity thing.

George Scheifer's underlying kata style derives from Ric Martin. I think George is the 3rd of 5 Godans Rick has promoted. George has modified those foundation patterns by his own intensive training and study of kobudo. He is also 5th degree in weapons. There aren't many in the U.S. that have achieved that rank. That particular pliable pelvic "thingie" that George does isn't done by Ric and Kiyohide Shinjo doesn't do it either even though Narahiro does. Ric and Kiyohide are about the same size and are much larger men than George and Narahiro. When George does Sansei Ryu, I've seen Kiyohide look at Ric, and Ric look back at Kiyoide and nod ok and Kiyohide look back at Ric and nod in agreement accompanied by a long, low soft gutteral affirmation.

My take on the origins of the move is that it is a bo kakai uke, a circular parry and thrust. You drop the tip of your bo under an incoming thrust (the dipping of the cup) and as you do so you pull your right leg back into a cat stance while cocking your left hip back. Then as your bo rises, at the moment of contact with the incoming thrust, you pull your right hip back and thrust your left hip forward while thrusting the attacker's bo to your right side. The power comes from the push-pull ying-yang action at the center and not from your arms. The entire movement is a sinuous, wirey snap. I'm surprised when I practice how much more power I have in the block and thrust than just blocking with my arms.

The whole movement less the cat stance flows seamlessly into sansei ryu and all the explanations about dipping water, fishooks and umbrella handles you can just chuck .

On the bo technique, make sure in the thrust that each fist turns over and reverses position making the bo spiral and corckscrew into the target. George loves to show how the skin around your throat and neck winds up around the tip of the bo. Yuck and ouch!!! You got to love it

[Stryke]

Ive seen the kata and think it`s a huge leap to assume it`s a lost kata of Uechi .

But I`m no Uechi expert .

I think Glen had a good point

I could demonstrate shotokan katas in a uechi method that would accentuate and fit into uechi seamlessly , with many of the same techniques .

not to say it isnt based on similar things etc but It`s best just taken as anothe rkata IMHO

[brothermanontario]

I thank you all for the imput> My purpose was to open exchange of ideas for mutual benefits.

I have practiced chinese kenpo since 1995 and would not mistake it's kata for Uechi. I have been practicing Goju ryu as long and don't see the similarities to Uechi kata, I have not seen Simon performing Suparenpei so I can't comment.

Could some one post a clip?

I have seen shotokan kata and don't see any similarity to Uechi

Some katas one can see similarities, but more so the differences in posture stance ect

Unless Bill has altered the kata from Simons original Their are a number of similarities to the Goju versions with slight alterations, but the emphasis seems to me to be fast efficient blocks strikes grabs ect.

I look forward to the responses

[gmattson]

kata was definately influenced by his Goju. Bill didn't change any of the movements, but where a circle block was executed by Simon, close to the face, Bill extended his arm more, as the circle move is performed in Uechi.

There were a number of other goju inflenced techniques which are "similar" to Uechi, that Bill gave a uechi "emphasis" to.

As I've said many times, this "set" is the closest to what might be considered in the uechi historical kata tree. We've looked at and studied many of the Fuzhou forms that were supposedly linked to the uechi system, but none passed what I call the "stick" factor. This version of Superempi does.

I don't know if it will ever be formally adopted as a uechi kata or related to what might have at one time been the infamous uechi fourth kata, but I do know one thing.... It is being studied and taught by too many people to disappear.

Looking at the form from purely a self-defense application point of view, I believe it offers the uechi community a much better option for further study (through the use of kata) than what I've seen of other individual's attempt to create another kata for uechi.

[Guest]

Didn't the Shorei Ryu "mainstream" have an agenda which called for the use of weapons in the Uechi program as well as the adoption of another kata?

[Glenn]

John,

Shorei is related to Goju Ryu, I think you mean Shohei Ryu which branched away from Uechi Ryu in the early 1990s. I am not sure if weapons training played a role in this or not.

According to Mark Bishop's book, one of the topics of disagreement that led Seiki Itokazu and Takashi Kinjo to disassociate themselves from Uechi Ryu in 1978 and form Pangainoon Ryu (now Konan/Kobu Ryu) was the teaching of weapons with Uechi Ryu. Itokazu and Kinjo favored teaching the two together. Uechi Ryu and Matayoshi Ryu are both taught equally together at Kinjo's dojo, and as far as I know at most of the dojo run by students of his.

[gmattson]

Uechi-ryu and Okinawan weapons resulted in many "lively" discussions on Okinawa for as long as I remember.

I lived in the village of Kadena for over a year during my original tour-of-duty. (My 2nd home!) Every morning an elderly neighbor went into the courtyard of our adjoining houses and performed a Uechi sanchin. . . with Sai that had the shaft cut off. (probably a set he had during the Japanese ban on weapons)

This got me thinking about the use of different weapons as part of our Kata and I brought up the subject at one of the Uechi association meetings. There was, at that time, some interest in Uechi becoming both a "weaponless" and "weapons" style, by simply adding different weapons to our existing Kata. However, there was a strong and powerful faction at the time that was strongly against this and I guess influenced the group to retain its existing policy.

Currently, many Uechi dojo on Okinawa continue to practice Matayoshi Ryu weapon Kata.

The IUKF began exploring the use of traditional Okinawan weapons as part of our Uechi Kata practice three years ago. If anyone would like to join our committee on this study (you don't have to be a member of IUKF) please contact me.

[Guest]

Thanks Glenn for the correction:

I think you mean Shohei Ryu which branched away from Uechi Ryu in the early 1990s.

I think that's what I meant I think there was an agenda to include weapons and add a new kata to the successor organization of Okikukai.

We were affiliated with that later organization until we aligned with Guishi.
Anyhow, it's very confusing and obviously from GEM's post it's not clear yet in the Uechi family of styles as to the incorporation of weapons or the addition of a new kata. Guishi includes several Matyoshi kata in his kobudo system. He calls his organization Ryukokaku Karate & Kubudo.
But to get karate certification you do not have to meet any kubudo requirements and vice versa. The Karate and the Kubudo are distinct. In deference to the Uechi family he does not use the Uechi name and he calls the karate element of his organization Pangainoon.