Southern Mantis Alter

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John Giacoletti
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Southern Mantis Alter

Post by John Giacoletti »

This seems similar to the alters I've read about in traditional North American and Okinawan dojo.

I've seen rice, salt and flowers on the alter but not incense. What are the Mantis salutes? Would that be similar to the Uechi claps?
The spri (altar), is honored from generation to generation. The spri has the deepest spiritual meaning, this is where the sifu honors all previous masters. The students honor the current masters this is the way of order. Only the (sifu) will go near the spri, upon the opening of each class, sifu will light the incense and place upon the spri. In silence the sifu and the students honor the ancestors in the art. In daily practice they show this by saluting (with the unique southern mantis salute) the altar of kung fu and past masters and sifu when they enter and leave class. Sifu opens his classes by burning incense at the altar and closes it with his salutes

As a spiritual discipline, each of students learn the meaning of the Chinese words:

Hoc Yurn
Hoc Yi
Hoc Kung Fu
Jurn Jow
Jurn Si
Jurn Gow Do.

They must understand humility, loyalty, and hard work with respect of the ancient masters, respect of sifu and respect of his guidance.
http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satb ... hu/sm.html
There is much to make of every moment.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

The "Uechi clap" has buddhist origin. You are supposed to be waking up the spirits of the ancestors so you may honor them. The specific application in a Uechi dojo would be calling attention to Kanbun, Kanei, Shushiwa, etc. so you could pay respects before/after workout.

I had so much problem with Christian literalists on this tradition that I threw it out of the dojo. We have no pictures or altars that we bow to. We bow in a circle and clap to each other. It's a nice compromise.

- Bill
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Post by f.Channell »

I had so much problem with Christian literalists on this tradition that I threw it out of the dojo.
I would have booted them out of the Dojo.

Don't mess with my tradition!

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Post by f.Channell »

I teach at a center where they also teach dancing and I've had the dancers tell me they feel like they are being watched by the masters!
:lol:
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

What the purpose for clapping in Aikido? Is this not part of Shinto?
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Fred wrote:
I would have booted them out of the Dojo.

Don't mess with my tradition!

You are entitled to that opinion, Fred.

The thing is, the students...

1) Were absolutely right. This is a RELIGIOUS-based tradition. Why in God's name are we throwing religion into a martial arts workout?

We absolutely should know what we are doing/saying in the dojo and why. The deeper you look, the more you learn.

2) The students involved were some of my most sincere and most dedicated. These were not troublemakers. Quite the contrary, their dedication to their religion demonstrated an ability to stick with "a tradition" through thick and thin.

True story... One instructor of mine, Steven King, was one of the more talented martial artists I've ever known. Dr. King started as a child in judo, then studied kyokushinkai ryu, then Gojo with the famous Yamaguchi Gosei, then Goju with Kimo Wall (who appeared at camp several years), and then a number of other traditions. Then he made a career out of it by going into special forces (green berets). Then he taught martial arts while becoming a chiropractor.

Dr. King was one of Kimo Wall's star students. He was so coveted by Wall Sensei that Kimo had the audacity to call Yamaguchi Sensei up and tell him King was no longer his student. (He "stole" him by burning bridges.) But Dr. King was also very serious about his Christianity. At some point, he got to a crossroads with this whole bowing to pictures thing. It doesn't really bug me, but some Christians think it's a big deal. You have to respect that. In any case, it eventually led to a very unfortunate and testy parting of ways between King Sensei and Wall Sensei. It was a terrible loss for the both of them. Dr. King ended up serving his country, and training quite a few martial artists with what he had learned.

Again, why the heck are we bowing to pictures? What does this have to do with martial arts practiced in the United States? Are there not other culturally appropriate ways to show respect without violating someone's personal religious beliefs - or lack thereof?

Whenever someone mentions "tradition", it reminds me of how students often invoked the word at U.Va. whenever someone wanted change. Invariably someone would call up the name of Thomas Jefferson, founder of the school, in a letter to the editor of The Cavalier Daily. "TJ would roll in his grave if he knew someone was breaking with tradition."

Meanwhile, who the heck was Thomas Jefferson? Among other things, he was author and signer of The Declaration of Independence.
Every generation needs a new revolution.
- Thomas Jefferson


TJ by the way also was the author of a statute on religious freedom in Virginia.
That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
That was the basis of a similar piece in the Bill of Rights.

I respect the right of others to bow to pictures and clap to wake up the spirits of their ancestors. I'll go along with it in Rome if it keeps the Romans happy. But it somehow seems culturally inappropriate to be forcing it on those who find the practice offensive.

My opinion, of course. 8)

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Jim

You are right on the Shinto origin of the clapping. From a Wikipedia article on bowing...
Bowing in religious settings

Bows are performed both in Shinto and Buddhist settings. Korean Zen Buddhism has a daily ritual in which practicioners do 1,080 full prostration bows, usually spread throughout the day. More casual practicioners and laypeople typically do 108 bows once a day instead.

Visitors to a Shinto shrine will clap or ring a bell to attract the attention of the enshrined deity, clasp the hands in prayer, and then bow.
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Post by John Giacoletti »

For me the moment of silence is a moment to focus not in reverence but in respect. The "clap" signals to me that it's time to spring to action.

To me it's ritual and not religion but I can understand that some persons view it as Buddist or Shintoist and object.

I like the idea of a circle before class something like a sports huddle. It's a moment to shed the ego and subordinate it to the greater good of the group or the team. While we are not there for competative purposes we are there to improve ouir understanding and performance in the martial arts.
There is much to make of every moment.
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Post by CANDANeh »

The claps
I just like that moment when all is done, ready for a Keiths Ale in about 20 min. after the claps. Momma hears me coming home :)
Yep told students that and they understand :wink:
I like thinking also that the clap represents violence and silience between represents peace...yinyang.
Actually read that on one of these forums but darned if can find again.

No protest regarding the ceremony as of yet...the claps could go without causing me grief but NO ONE messes with my Ale
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Post by KerryM »

With heart felt respect- I have a question-
1) Were absolutely right. This is a RELIGIOUS-based tradition. Why in God's name are we throwing religion into a martial arts workout?

We absolutely should know what we are doing/saying in the dojo and why. The deeper you look, the more you learn.

2) The students involved were some of my most sincere and most dedicated. These were not troublemakers. Quite the contrary, their dedication to their religion demonstrated an ability to stick with "a tradition" through thick and thin.
This is religious based tradition? I had no idea- unless you mean Shinto.... I think that a lot of people (not saying myself... but a lot of people...) feel that to work your mind-body and SPIRIT is to be religious-

I think some don't understand that you can be spiritual while having no religion.

Same time- a lot of the emotional accomplishments can very well affect your "spiritual" side and or religion- so I don't think it is too far a reach to stick in religion- though- if religion were to be stuck in it "should" be the one the tradition was based in... goes to figure to my opinion anyway-

Secondly, and asked with respect...

If they- were completely right.. and thus
Quite the contrary, their dedication to their religion demonstrated an ability to stick with "a tradition" through thick and thin....
shouldn't you be allowed to do the same by sticking to yours guns about what traditions are important to you?

Same time though- I know what mean about keeping religion out of it- and I believe that is probably the best solution- keep the ancester "appreciation" because it's polite- if nothing else-

keep the bowing- because that too- is cultural not just religious as well as respectful... (they don't stop people from shaking hand right?) But to have to pick only one religion would alienate more people who might be able to bennefit from learning self defense...

Not to mention the problems that arise- hence that "don't talk politics or religion at a party " line....

Just some thoughts- I loved that line-
The deeper you look, the more you learn.


Good one-

Kerry
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

These are good questions, Kerry.

BTW, I cleaned up the formatting on your post so it would come out right. Hope you don't mind... 8)

Most people can come to a rational position about the bowing and clapping, and find it an acceptable practice. But some Christans cannot. I understand just enough about religion to disagree with their interpretation, but completely respect their opinion. It's a funny position to have, but a valid one nonetheless.

It's easier sometimes to shed that which isn't absolutely necessary in life, and let individuals layer on whatever cultural, traditional, spiritual, and religious practices they choose.

I'm all for bowing though. There needs to be a command and control structure in a dojo, and a respect both for authority and for fellow practitioners. The bow is a convenient and seredipitously sanitary way to display greeting and respect to others. It's also a useful act to mark beginnings and ends of activities so one can know when to put the mind in the next mode.

- Bill
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Post by AAAhmed46 »

Actually in islam, we are to bow only to god, though i think that it was not meant to be taken literally, and should be taken into context.

Such as the fact that in japan, bowing was something like a handshake. So when you bow before you do a kata, your essentially saying "Wassup!!!!"

Besides, the way Shinto's seem to bow when worshipping seems vastly different from how we bow before we do a kata.
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Post by f.Channell »

Any religion can be interpreted in several different ways.

When it is used to destroy others this sickens me the most.

I could argue with the Christians Bill mentions that the Commandment to "put no false gods before me", includes choosing to watch football or a baseball game rather than reading the bible. This would also be true of going to Karate class in the first place.
So it guess it depends on what your interpretation of the message is, or how extreme you choose to be.

The same with the Koran or other religious books. I read it and feel it has many great messages, another reads it and flies a jet into a skyscraper.

The bowing and Seiza and clapping are important rituals from the culture this art came to us from. Being a culture with a far more peaceful history than ours, there's a lot to learn from it.
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Post by MikeK »

How are they important rituals if we are not a part of the culture?
I was dreaming of the past...
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Post by f.Channell »

Mike,

If you travel to Okinawa or train with Okinawans I feel it is important to have a knowledge of technique names and these rituals so you can gain the most from the training with them, and be able to communicate.
At least meet them halfway and have a basic knowledge of their rituals.
I don't do the full deal every night, but I do it ocassionally for this reason.
As do most of the schools I train sometimes at.
And it is no different in Judo my other art.
In international competition (Olympics included) with over 100 countries competing and all the cultures and religions, the original bowing and ritual is still performed.
Part of what makes it an art.

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