The State of the Martial Arts

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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

And when I go out the door prepared to use striking, grappling, emotional intelligence, mindset, and higher levels of the force continuum, I have the laws of society to contend with. I do want to come home, but I'd prefer a bed at home rather than in a jail cell.

Context is everything.
Most excellent, Bill. :)
Van
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TSDguy
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Post by TSDguy »

You missed my point, Bill. MMA points out all the flaws in TMA. One flaw is that, if you're beating the hell out of the gang bangers on their feet (Bas Rutten's excellent full contact karate guy) then they'll most likely tackle you (take him to the ground.)

If in your TMA, you don't regularly practice

1)Surviving a fast and furious barrage of punches to the head
2)Dealing with sweeps, leg kicks, and throws
3)Defending against shoots and take downs
4)Dealing with body and head kicks
5)Surving on the ground once you're there
6)Eliminating someone as fast as possible with knees, kicks, elbows, etc.

then MMA has something important to teach you. Show me a TMA school that teaches you all of that on a regular basis, they're called MMA schools.

Many TMA practitioners, to be blunt, can't deal with one opponent in a heavily controlled environment.
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TSDguy
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Post by TSDguy »

Not everyone needs to be a complete MAist. I'm totally happy with people training nothing but qigong for 40 years. But MMA pointed out, in Bas Rutten's example, a huge and obvious flaw in TMAs. If you're ok with that, so be it, but you (you in general) can't possibly claim to be a complete fighter anymore without knowing "MMA". And takedown defense/ground fighting is just a small part of it. Look how Anderson Silva MURDERS people using the muay thai clinch.

The first UFC TMA competitors probably thought they had prepared for everything...[/b]
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Jake Steinmann
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Post by Jake Steinmann »

mhosea wrote: Well, eclectic TMA schools have been around for a long time. This isn't the same thing as MMA just because they teach both karate and jujitsu. The "MMA" I see is inherently driven by competition, just like boxing. You box until you're too old (usually still young in terms of lifespan), and then if you want to stay in the sport you help train those who are still young enough to fight. I could be wrong. It's not really my scene, so maybe there is an "MMA for Everyone" school around the corner with seniors class at night kicking each other in the knees, hitting each other in the head (with headgear on, of course), and doing takedowns for sub grappling.
Without diving into the rest of the stuff on this thread:

1. Most MMA fighters don't kick directly on the knee. That's considered a bit of a dick move, at best. Not illegal, but certainly impolite.

2. At Sityodtong, while we have our share of young bucks, we also have plenty of people who train just to train, have no interest in competing, and just love Muay Thai/MMA. Some of them even have white hair (or no hair at all). They get by just fine.

The SBGi (www.straightblastgym.com) folks pride themselves on being able to teach MMA to just about anyone. I've not personally experienced much of their training, but I believe it.

I know of a number of older Judo players who turn to BJJ because it's easier on the body.

Training MMA, Muay Thai, Judo, or whatever, doesn't HAVE to be rough. That's a common misconception about how these arts need to be trained. You don't have to be a super-star athlete to participate, and more than you have to be a super-star athlete to do Uechi-Ryu.

To be the best of the best? Yes, it helps to be young, strong, athletic, and genetically gifted. But that helps in Uechi Ryu, and every other athletic activity on the planet.
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mhosea
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Post by mhosea »

Thanks, Jake, I was hoping you would reply.
Mike
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Good points, Jake.
TSDGuy wrote:
If in your TMA, you don't regularly practice

1)Surviving a fast and furious barrage of punches to the head
2)Dealing with sweeps, leg kicks, and throws
3)Defending against shoots and take downs
4)Dealing with body and head kicks
5)Surving on the ground once you're there
6)Eliminating someone as fast as possible with knees, kicks, elbows, etc.

It seems to me that you are stereotyping TMA. Just a wee bit of the strawman, no?

For lack of a better label, I consider what we do to be TMA. But some would argue with that. Hell, Ray tells me all the time that what I do isn't Uechi. :lol:

Let's take your points one at a time.

1)Surviving a fast and furious barrage of punches to the head

I have an exercise we do where I have the student stand with back to the wall. The student must not let that back pop off the wall. Then a partner stand in front of him and does nonstop techniques. The head most definitely is fair game. In fact, it's supposed to be a primary target. Where did I pick that exercise up from? Shelly Dunn. He's a traditional Uechika who also happens to have worked as a bouncer.

***

Here's the best picture I could come up with on the web of Uechi Ryu's Seisan jump posture. That's none other than Kanei Uechi himself doing it.

Image

This is an inside fighting style modification of a crane style posture.

Image

The biggest difference is that the Uechika has a hand-to-head positioning of the upper hand. And there's a good reason for that.

As hard as I tried, I could not find a great shot of the boxing application for the upper gate. However my boxing instructor called it "answering the telephone." It was done with or without a bobbing motion. The second he showed me that motion in my boxing class, I knew exactly where the fundamental element of human movement was in my Uechi kata. It took absolutely zero time to learn it.

For my renshi certification, I submitted a series of 12 flow drills I choreographed to the Uechi Ryu board. They were partner exercise interpretations of Uechi's 13 hojo undo. One of them (furi tsuki) has this "answer the telephone" response to repeated hook punches to the head. It's a happy place that a Uechika can find inside the eye of the hurricane of a flailing opponent. 8)

I got my renshi, BTW... :wink:

2)Dealing with sweeps, leg kicks, and throws

Dealing with sweeps? Hell, the Uechi kata are full of them. I learned quite a few from none other than Bob Campbell.

The Seisan jump is also thought to be a response to a double leg sweep found in Chinese martial arts, a.k.a. "iron broom."

We kick each other in the legs all the bloody time in Uechi Ryu. We do it for grins in our training. We call it ashi kitae (leg conditioning). We test for it. This includes kicks inside and outside the leg on the upper and lower leg as well as blows to the shins.

Throws exist all the way through Uechi kata. The only rate-limiting factor for most Uechi Ryu practitioners is the lack of a good mat. But in my dojo, we start from the very first test with ukemi (rolling and falling) requirements and testing. This is the foundation for later work on throws.

We have a bunch of them I teach...

Various Uechi Yakusoku Kumite have throws in them. I have a few dojo-specific ones I teach. Many I stole from my Shorei Kai Goju teacher. They are quite Uechi-like. (He's the guy that started in judo, BTW...)

3)Defending against shoots and take downs

This is in Seisan bunkai. Execution of this is a requirement for every Uechi Ryu black belt test. It isn't a classic sprawl, but then we'd prefer our response (redirect the head and smash with knee) over the protracted ground battle when it comes to street fighting with multiple opponents. It keeps you on your feet and in control of your center.

A shoot, FWIW, is hidden in Uechi's Sanseiryu kata. It comes right after three reverse thrusts. You get the person thinking head, head, head, and the BAM! you drop down low. Actually doing the classic shoot is hidden, but well within the context of this pattern of human movement. I've seen Joey Pomfret (Uechika and BJJ practitioner) do it all the time. His opponents never know if they're going to get hit high or low. That's probably why he's suckered so many of them into KOs with a roundhouse kick to the head. When looking at it in slowmo, it appears his hapless partner forgets to protect the head. I know better. Joey's got them thinking low, and them BAM! :twisted:

And FWIW... I teach my people Uechi postures and patterns from on their backs to on their knees to on their feet. And I teach them the ukemi movements to tie it all together with smooth transitions.

It's all there for the knowledgeable instructor to put together. OR... We could pick some hapless boob and say "THIS is what Traditional Uechi Ryu is supposed to be like!!"

What-ever...

4)Dealing with body and head kicks

Our body conditioning is called karada kitae. We do it with both hand blows and kicks.

As for kicks to the head... See what I wrote above about how Joey Pomfret got most of his KOs.

Ever heard of Jim Witherel? He's one of our Uechi rokudans who also trained with Bill "Superfoot" Wallace. He teaches stretching and kicking at camps. Jim can sleep in a lateral splits.

I have a Uechi student (Bruce Hirabayashi) who also could sleep in a lateral splits and at one time could squat over 400 lbs.

I submitted Thirty Eight Special to my Renshi evaluation committee. It is a kicking form (kata, choreography...) with 38 kicks found in martial arts. The goal of my work was to teach Uechika to kick so Uechika could learn to defend against kickers. We lived in Jhoon Rhee territory after all...

5)Surving on the ground once you're there

See what I wrote about my ukemi and ground work. But FWIW... I teach my people not to spend a lot of time on the ground. We learn to apply Uechi techniques at all levels, but we prefer to get back up on our feet - fighting as we make the transition from floor to standing. It works better on the street.

6)Eliminating someone as fast as possible with knees, kicks, elbows, etc.

Sounds like classic Uechi Ryu to me... But you forgot the head butting. :twisted:

The biggest problem with all the knee and elbow techniques in our kata is that we can't find good karate kumite venues to practice them. But now and then we get a Uechika who shows us he knows what he's doing in the MMA arena.

- Bill
AAAhmed46
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Post by AAAhmed46 »

I dont think he is taking shots at uechi-ryu more so training practices.

Yes uechi-ryu kata is rank full of all sorts of great material.


That isn't the issue.


The issue is training habits.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

AAAhmed46 wrote:
The issue is training habits.
So since when do TMA folks corner the market on bad training habits? I mean really now.... It sounds like a bit of stereotyping to me.

Back in the day, many of these TMAs in China existed in a Wild-West-type world. It was fair game to challenge an instructor and win all his students if you kicked his arse.

My first karate teacher was a little like that. As a Japanese who studied from many of the greats, he took his Japanese art quite seriously. He thought nothing of walking into the dojo of a charletan and challenging him. Picture a severe-looking Japanese with leather jacket and sunglasses and a W&M football team lineman as sidekick walking into your school and asking you what the hell you were doing while poking finger in chest. 8O Yes, he was a bit over the top.

Not all martial artists of any genre are created equal.

- Bill
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TSDguy
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Post by TSDguy »

I move around a lot. I've lived in 5 states off the top of my head, and, for example, in Boston I've lived in 3 going on 4 sub-cities. Each time I move I visit all of the surrounding schools to find one I like. Plus I like just visiting random schools and maybe training a class. The number is probably in the hundreds.

Percentage of TMA schools of any and all styles that meet my VERY basic list from above: 0%

Percentage of MMA schools that meet m-- well you get the idea. It wouldn't be a MMA school if it didn't.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I question the randomness of your sample. My guess is that you are focusing on a small subset of TMA schools which seem to fit your criteria.

I've seen crap in every venue. And I've seen excellence in every venue.

And if you've lived in Boston as long as you say you have, did you ever visit the Uechi Cambridge and Hancock dojo? It was world famous. It's where many of Uechi Ryu's present great instructors trained at one time or another. You can't say you "did Boston" if you never visited that dojo when it was rocking. George was one of the first in the country to teach TMA after all...

Ever worked with any of Jimmy Malone's students? Worked out with Art Rabesa? With Van? With Gary Khory? With Bob Bethoney? With Clarence Wilder? (To name a few good fighting Uechi dojos in the NE area...)

Ever work out with some of the famous cross-training Uechi instructors in the area? With Jack Summers or any of his students? (Uechi/jiujitsu) Andre Tippett is one of his student's students, BTW... With Joe Pomfret? (Uechi/BJJ).

- Bill
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TSDguy
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Post by TSDguy »

I have absolutely no criteria for visiting a school. If it's within easy access, I'll go visit it. (Well, to be fair, I skip the health club tai-chi for women type things.) I give preference to judo schools since that's just what I'm interested in, but I visit them all.

I haven't 'done' Boston, and I'm not claiming that there aren't any good TMA schools out there at all. I've been to many schools that I learned a lot from of course. But taking an unbiased sampling from several major cities in five states tells me that TMA schools that teach a complete curriculum and fire test their assumptions are few and far between. As in, I've never found one.

If it makes you happy, the only Uechi school I went to look at I never returned to take their sample class because the instructor was a dick. :wink:

Once I get my health insurance up and running again, I'll be making a beeline to the nearest MMA school. It's so much easier.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Here are a few traditional Uechika you should meet some day who hail from the New England area. And no, I wouldn't call any of these folks "average." ;)

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

You name it, and somebody in that group can do it or has done it.

- Bill
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TSDguy
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Post by TSDguy »

Then how do you suggest TMA schools make that their average? It's absolutely not, nor is it particularly common as I think you will agree.
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Jake Steinmann
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Post by Jake Steinmann »

I would just like to take brief aside to register how much I hate the term "TMA".

But maybe that should be it's own thread.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

If you take the last two posts, I think it says something.

I agree with Jake to an extent. I don't know what the hell I call myself. I teach Uechi. I teach aikido. I ALWAYS teach in locations with a complete gym. (Free weights are a must.) Rich runs a fantastic reality-based self defense seminar. He's a civilian Marine Corp Martial Art Black belt. We do sticks, knives, and traditional Okinawan weapons. We have programs to help people get a concealed carry permit. Rich is NRA certified in pistol, shotgun, and rifle. I ask my students to read books by Grossman, DeBecker, and Goleman.

So WTF are we?

Are the Ryuha static, or are the survivors going to be moving targets?

It's a "cluster" in my book. A constantly morphing cluster.

To some extent, the kind of fun stuff Jake does is based upon a "traditional" art or two.

- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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