We need to bring Reagan back... to fight Japan.

[Valkenar]

A majority of the US believes in illogical religious dogma

That's an unsubstantiated assertion.

- Bill

Which word do you object to?

Majority? (If it's a lower percent, say 20%, does that make it okay?)
Illogical? (Is creationism based in logic?)
Religious? (Isn't creationist dogma a religious dogma?)
Dogma? (Is not creationism a "a system of principles or tenets"?)

Where is all this disavowal of evolution coming from, if not from religion? Who else is trying to undermine our education on this subject? Seriously, if I'm wrong about the source I would love to know who is responsible for this steaming pile of ignorance.

[Laird2]

Especially when you site drunken jokes by fivedragons as 'checkmate'.

Yeah you’re right mate, Bill should not be crying checkmate he should be calling foul!

http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=13766

Good set of rules when we play by them. Man up and play nice dude.

[fivedragons]

What do James Watson and Billy Graham have to do with the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as recorded and distorted in the many versions of the new testament, as witnessed by multiple apostles who may or may not have even existed?

We, our world view and our intellectual heritage are a direct product of religious thought, as it has shaped and provided impetus to the evolving history of mankind, and our scientific evolution has and always will be inextricably linked with our spiritual evolution.

If we were purely beings of intellect we would be inert.

A computer without a programmer, a calculator without a function.

[Laird2]

Also, lay off the heroin

##### it if your guys don't have to follow the rules no one does. I'm going to get drunk in order to throw off my social conditioning...and then I'm going to have a wee run at you folks.


Off to the vendors!

[fivedragons]

Valkenar, I suggest reading the works of Milton, Shakespeare, Dante, and Swift for a good sample of what the intellect is capable of, when divinely inspired.

While you read, play the collected works of Beethoven at extremely high decibels. I suggest turning the volume up to eleven.

[AAAhmed46]

What do James Watson and Billy Graham have to do with the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as recorded and distorted in the many versions of the new testament, as witnessed by multiple apostles who may or may not have even existed?

We, our world view and our intellectual heritage are a direct product of religious thought, as it has shaped and provided impetus to the evolving history of mankind, and our scientific evolution has and always will be inextricably linked with our spiritual evolution.

If we were purely beings of intellect we would be inert.

A computer without a programmer, a calculator without a function.

That is more or less my view.

Look at s\St.Thomas Aquiness? He was brilliant, and he was a devout christian, and none of western science would have gone as far as it has today without him. My ATHIEST history professor even gave him credit and his faith credit for driving him on. And, there was even a sense of interfaith as well, considering how he also looked at arab sources, while the arabs looked at christian soarces as well.

Anyone know who gregor mendel is and his link to the science of genetics? He was a priest.

[Valkenar]

What do James Watson and Billy Graham have to do with the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as recorded and distorted in the many versions of the new testament, as witnessed by multiple apostles who may or may not have even existed?

I don't know, maybe nothing. I don't care at all whether they're wrong or right about what is or isn't the teachings of Jesus. As far as I'm concerned all interpretations of the bible are equally valid. But a lot of people listen to and accept what people like Billy Graham have to say on the matter. That's what's relevant to this discussion.

I'm not saying that Jesus Christ is teaching people to be ignorant. I'm only pointing out that whether you, Fivedragons, think it's a valid or invalid interpretation or not, many people in this country practice willful ignorance grounded in religious belief.

We, our world view and our intellectual heritage are a direct product of religious thought, as it has shaped and provided impetus to the evolving history of mankind, and our scientific evolution has and always will be inextricably linked with our spiritual evolution.

If we were purely beings of intellect we would be inert.

Our culture is also, in the same sense, a direct product of the bubonic plague, the ice ages, the corset, the horse and buggy, the and all manner of other things. What happened in the past shapes the present. Religion certainly has had a larger impact than most things, that's true. That doesn't mean we'd all be up the creek if it had never existed.

In fact, one of the most disappointing things about this is that many religions have had a very thoroughgoing tradition of scholarship and thought. Be that as it may, in this country, at this time, from our religious institutions, there's a lot more creationism than Aquinas going on.

[TSDguy]

As Adam points out, it mostly a US religion thing. In fact the only country in the West that has more creationists is Turkey. I have my theories about why people have encouraged this ignorance.

The Vatican's official stance is that you're a dumbass if you believe in creationism, almost without exaggeration. Listen to or read the Vatican Astronomer's opinion on the matter. Those priests get fiesty.

[AAAhmed46]

turkey is weiiiirrd. Nationalism trumps religion there any day. In fact, 90% of turkish singers there are probably gay. Ask any turk, they'll probably tell you most of their singers are gay. You can insult religion there easily, but don't insult turkey! They'll kick your ass!

Love their belly dancers. Didem!

[fivedragons]

Valkenar: "That doesn't mean we'd all be up the creek if it had never existed."

No, what it really means is you and I wouldn't be having this excellent conversation right now if it didn't exist.

It's organic, and has sprung from our human experience on planet Earth, in this dimension and time.

Your statement has absolutely no meaning, unless you can go back in time and replace what has happened with what you feel should have happened, which is a product of what has happened.

Tautology.

[AAAhmed46]

As Adam points out, it mostly a US religion thing. In fact the only country in the West that has more creationists is Turkey. I have my theories about why people have encouraged this ignorance.

The Vatican's official stance is that you're a dumbass if you believe in creationism, almost without exaggeration. Listen to or read the Vatican Astronomer's opinion on the matter. Those priests get fiesty.

But it wasn't always like that. The only reason the religious right gets so illogical is because of the pat robertsons and john hagees. They made things that should be relativly irrelevant into issues.

HOw did they get a following? They scared people into thinking in absolutes. The moment the religious stop feeling threatened by what can be deemed 'progressives'(a very loose word in my mind) the moment you will see lots of heavy support for science and logic within the religious community. As a teenager, i never really felt threatened by the concept of evolution, i believed it, and it really had no affect on me as a muslim.

It's only after when people CLAIM that your either logical or spiritual where i got confused.

I remember seeing a CATHOLIC paleantologist on the colbert report, i remember seeing a debate with a MUSLIM paleontologist/biologist argueing with someone who was a creationist.

We would see more of them, if two sides stopped saying your either one or the other. If the early scientists were religious, why can't modern ones be as well? We have examples of them, ones who care not to delve into this stupid social argument perpetuated by the John hagee's and richard dawkins, because they simply hate each other over their ego.

[fivedragons]

Valkenar: "Be that as it may, in this country, at this time, from our religious institutions, there's a lot more creationism than Aquinas going on."

Do you have any idea whatsoever about the history and practice of religious/spiritual discipline?

Is your cup full, half empty, half full, or empty?

Maybe your problem isn't with Christianity so much as with those who don't understand the message.

Or just those who don't think like you.

Do some research on the desert fathers, you might find something that explodes all the prejudices you hold dear.

Or maybe you don't want anything threatening the foundations of your personal dogmatic crusade.

Atheist swine.

[fivedragons]

If you really want to open yourself to different ways of thinking you could always read the writings of Thomas Merton and Alan Watts.

One a trappist monk, and one an ex-episcopal priest who found himself lost and reborn in the teachings of the tao.

Just people like you or me, trying to find their way along the path.

[Valkenar]

Maybe your problem isn't with Christianity so much as with those who don't understand the message.

I don't have a problem with Christianity in particular. I have a problem with anyone who wants to teach religion as science. In this country Christianity does tend to be the chief agent of that practice, but I'm not interested in attacking any particular faith. I have two points to make, basically. One, that it's a tragedy that we have so much willful ignorance being promulgated in this country. Two, pretending religion has nothing to do with that is intellectually dishonest.

[Bill Glasheen]

I did a little bit of research online concerning the statements made in this thread.

To start with... Shame on those making the assertions for not doing THEIR homework. That's intellectually lazy, which pretty much undermines their claim to a superior academic position.

That being stated... Many of the polls were conducted by liberal sources. One for example was done by CBS after the 2004 election. It appears that the person conducting the poll wqs trying to prove a point - that a Kerry supporter was more likely to have the "enlightened" position. The margins however weren't that impressive. Oops!

Here's a series of polls by Gallup, which has a LITTLE more credence.

Beliefs of American adults -- 1991 to 2007

Here's the thing. "Scientists" of any kind (from computer science to biological science) almost unanimously reject a non-scientific approach. Can I hear a big "Duh!" from the crowd? And nonscientists.... tend to be a bit less scientific. Another "Duh!"

I'm not sure what this proves. Do we poll nonmusicians and ask them what they think about the circle of fifths?

I also have a bit of a problem with those who might quibble with "Theistic evolution." If you want to believe that your "God" guided evolution, well then good on you as far as I'm concerned. Why not? Are all on this thread so arrogant as to think they have all of science figured out? If you do, then that again is a sure sign of ignorance. And frankly the concept of "God" could very well be that which is the laws of the universe and of nature. Works for me! Call it whatever the hell you want, so long as it is truth. A rose is a rose by any other name.

And finally... It is my experience that "evolution" is badly mischaracterized even by its supporters. Few modern biologists endorse strict Darwininan evolution. Elliot Gould introduced the concept of punctuated equilibrium, which offers a very different - and more plausible - paradigm.

And if I hear one more idiot say we evolved FROM the apes...

But again... all this focus on creationism misses the point of religion. Religion isn't in your mind; it is in your heart. It isn't in the facts you spout; talk is cheap. It is in your actions.

But whatever... Folks like to demonize the opposition. I'm kidding myself thinking that all are coming to the discussion with reasonably empty cups. It's not about what is right so much as it's how I can make those guys look like idiots so as to elevate my propaganda.

What-ever...

It must be a week from election day.

- Bill