Sanchin

[maxwell ainley]

Kids quite easily mimic actions in lots of cases ,and they do it very natural like if you know what I mean ,its here I am thinking of one specific special person Toyama sensei ,started as a kid with Kanbun ,its also I wish to point out some thing I consider to be overlooked in the overall learning process " he's just a kid" ,my point is: a kid see's and can mimic a lot ,a lot of important information is digested into a kids body language patterns .

A massive log across a stream in the woods ,one kid goes over in very natural fashion ,others are wary but one by one follow the leader ,a main problem effect natural movement in some was [fear] ,another point is; nine out of ten they wern't into analyisis .

My point is kids can learn a lot quickly ,the simple natural things .
Another point on Toyama sensei is Kanbun is;his role model ,again this is an important factor in any learning .

[Dana Sheets]

I think the roundness is from the trap development, as Bill mentioned. I think lots of folks try to make themselves look like some kind of Uechi ideal, as Max mentioned, without having the actual body changes that are represented by that development.

In my experience, someone who intentionally "rounds" their shoulders is often very strong forward or backward, but rarely at they strong in both directions at the same time. I've also noticed that once you start rounding the shoulders you end up activating the muscles of the shoulder girdle, which antagonize power striking. So instead of the power coming from your legs and center, you end up "pushing" with your shoulders.

I believe that sanchin, or any short or long power, requires relaxed shoulders.

[Bill Glasheen]

I believe that sanchin, or any short or long power, requires relaxed shoulders.

There's a real yin and yang to that one, Dana.

Bill steps on soap box

With a number of students, one of the biggest problems I have from Sanchin on in Uechi Ryu is getting them to lock that shoulder structure (the acromioclavicular joint) down during a kime while simultaneously having muscles that move the arm within the shoulder as relaxed as possible. The challenge is to quiet the muscle "cross talk." It's the "pat your head while rubbing your tummy" challenge. My "physically challenged" students in this category will let the shoulder pop up when they thrust to get the thrust high enough. When you tell them to pull the shoulder down, things slow down too much or they end up thrusting down towards their belly. Oye!

As I tell them, this is part of the "pangainoon" of our system. Yin should be yin and yang should be yang, But while yin blends into yang, there is no gray in the yin-yang symbol. Mastering the ability to contract one group of muscles while completely relaxing another at the same time and within the same body region is IMO part of the challenge of creating "the perfect Sanchin." Being able to change those contraction patterns through movement - a dynamic yin-yang if you will - carries the concept to another level.

Some of the "robot Uechi" I see is an inability to go beyond a few simple degrees of freedom with this concept. The end result never looks "natural," even though students and some teachers delude themselves into thinking they are warriors (of doom). They are what one boxing teacher of mine used to call "gymnasium fighters." Looks good, but it doesn't do well on the road and in the ring.

Off of soap box

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

"Kanei spent most of his ten years of study working with the newer students so that his father continually corrected his form .Kanei did this because the more advanced students did not wish to be corected,preferring to do the form fast ,never allowing Kanbun a chance to correct the kata ." ponder this a while .

Max.

[maxwell ainley]

This is one specific point I see from my last post ,"The more advanced students did not wish to be corrected " and this ties in with the Ha principle I say this in a more general manner because this helps to explain at a basic level why there is so much difference in performance.

[maxwell ainley]

A kids body language mimicing is held within the shu stage ,he as no idea of "advanced" well not in a adults sense of the concept ,and with the window supplied by Kanei sensei , Kanbun had is problems with the advanced ,for me this is the real start of unnatural movement patterns in any methodology and even with gifted teachers .

[maxwell ainley]

Ponder this; "Kanbun wished to correct the advanced students but they would rather do the kata fast not giving Kanbun a chance to correct them " for me accuracy starts to go out of the window ,they the advanced arn't allowing accuracy to progress .

[Bill Glasheen]

There are many things to ponder in your posts, Max.

A maxim about internalizing material states that there are three stages to learning: watching, doing, and teaching. I can't tell you how much farther I have evolved through time through years of getting different kinds of people to do this stuff. And it isn't just teaching the "gifted." They often come to you gift wrapped; taking credit really isn't appropriate.

The "slowing down" happens for many when they have to bring others through the process. Not everyone can do it. But for those who can, they challenge their own understanding of the material. It doesn't cut it just to walk through stuff and have people copy you. I find it works best when I tear the material apart and then reconstruct it in myriad ways. When you see the light bulb go on in others who didn't initially get it, then you are on to something.

Kanei's brilliance came partially from his teacher, and partially from years and years of dedicated teaching. There is a purity and simplicity to what he does because he appears to have tried to separate the wheat from the chaffe so his students could learn the essence without copying "Kanei Ryu."

Even and especially with the advanced material, making this connection back to the simple stuff is so important. My personal opinion is that a complex system built on a handful of simple components is one that survives when the poop hits the rotating propeller and you have to wing it.

For the challenge of the advanced know-it-all, Max, I find that it's important to separate personal execution and expression from classroom drill and study. I heard it said that Kanbun rarely did a kata from beginning to end. More and more I find myself doing that. In a way I don't really want to do that because sometimes you end up with "Uechi metronome kata syndrome." (Another Billism. ) And after all is said and done, sometimes they end up repeating the same old schit in their kata execution. But every once in a while - particularly when you make them actively involved in the learning process - something sticks in the free expression. Those are the moments I live for.

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

There are many things to ponder in your posts, Max.

A maxim about internalizing material states that there are three stages to learning: watching, doing, and teaching. I can't tell you how much farther I have evolved through time through years of getting different kinds of people to do this stuff. And it isn't just teaching the "gifted." They often come to you gift wrapped; taking credit really isn't appropriate.

The "slowing down" happens for many when they have to bring others through the process. Not everyone can do it. But for those who can, they challenge their own understanding of the material. It doesn't cut it just to walk through stuff and have people copy you. I find it works best when I tear the material apart and then reconstruct it in myriad ways. When you see the light bulb go on in others who didn't initially get it, then you are on to something.

Kanei's brilliance came partially from his teacher, and partially from years and years of dedicated teaching. There is a purity and simplicity to what he does because he appears to have tried to separate the wheat from the chaffe so his students could learn the essence without copying "Kanei Ryu."

Even and especially with the advanced material, making this connection back to the simple stuff is so important. My personal opinion is that a complex system built on a handful of simple components is one that survives when the poop hits the rotating propeller and you have to wing it.

For the challenge of the advanced know-it-all, Max, I find that it's important to separate personal execution and expression from classroom drill and study. I heard it said that Kanbun rarely did a kata from beginning to end. More and more I find myself doing that. In a way I don't really want to do that because sometimes you end up with "Uechi metronome kata syndrome." (Another Billism. ) And after all is said and done, sometimes they end up repeating the same old schit in their kata execution. But every once in a while - particularly when you make them actively involved in the learning process - something sticks in the free expression. Those are the moments I live for.

- Bill

When I get a bit more time I wish to explore the the shu and ha principles ,also lots to ponder in your posts Bill Thanks.

[maxwell ainley]

We can say that Kanbun had a performance style,and from other posts he had problems with advanced students [Kanei's Quote] to me this is typical of any learning process .

Once a student can't apprehend a specific performance demo from say Kanbun in his day ,a next stage in accuracy teaching would be a manual correction ,and in ex amount of individuals the accuracy performance methodology is starting to breakdown ,and Frank sinatra in the individuals comes to mind with "I did it my way" Kanbun feels and fully knows they need corrections ,this is really a case of the Ha principle emerging too soon in individuals, they arn't at the Ha stage in the full sense of the concept ,what they needed to be corrected upon is lost in time , yet Kanei said "they were advanced " to my mind , and with Kanei's ref; to the preferance for speed , possibly a flaw in accuracy performance would be [Timing ] one of three major principles pertaining to a Kanbun like performance .

[hoshin]

as for shoulder position i prefer to roll the shoulders forward. i did learn for years the ear should be over the shoulder ,should be over the hip. however if you look at old photos you will see many have this rolled look. i would like to point out that Jim Maloney uses this rolled shoulder fighting position. i am positive it is not because of "bad posture" he as i , belive in a forward leaning posture as opposed to leaning back like Walter Mattson. while maybe not correct for text book sanchin i believe it is is a better fighing position. i view it as a posture for fighting. it pulls the traps into play to help protect the neck. however i do not roll the shoulders during a strike. so maybe i am misunderstanding what has been written.

steve

[Stryke]

I`m also of the slight lean forward crowd .

however are we really meaning roll the shoulders forward ? , you can pack them down and with a lean they can appear forward , but is the chest not fully open ?

If not it is simply bad posture and asking for trouble .

Ive seen lots of Footage of Sensei Maloney (any one interested in Uechi would be mad not too) , his shoulders dont appear misaligned and forward to me .


I think many confuse the shoulders being packed down with being forward , add some lean and theres all sorts of confusion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg3mQMdb ... re=related

clear in this clip , good back development and a forward lean and shoulder pack is down , very predatory , but shoulders are in fact in line with the ears ....

to me as long as the chest is open the shoulders cant collapse in .

maybe I`m not seeing it

[Stryke]

Stance education 101

and not to much violated in Sanchin surprisingly

(heresy!!!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHIaWVawbz0

[mhosea]

I just stood with my arms at my side, pulled my shoulders back and down. Then, keeping them that way, I brought my upturned palms to the chamber position and began to extend my arms forward as if performing a slow nukite. When I reached the correct distance for a Sanchin guard (elbow one fist from the torso), I raised the fingertips to the correct height for a Sanchin guard. Unfortunately, it was impossible for me to bring the elbows in at all from that position without moderating the shoulder position forward slightly.

[Bill Glasheen]

Stance education 101

and not to much violated in Sanchin surprisingly

(heresy!!!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHIaWVawbz0

Some in both the Uechi and the Muay Thai community think I've spoken heresy when I say there isn't a lot different between the core of Muay Thai and the core of Uechi Ryu. Some (Raffi and Joe Pomfret for example) tease me when I see similarities in arts that they didn't (initially) see. You know... too many drugs from the hippie era or something. Too much Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test.

The gentleman in the video mentioned the key low brain element that ties our arts together. And in mentioning this element, he is immediately on my list of favorite martial artists.

We see eye to eye on this, Marcus. Yes, there are annoying differences. But there are also startling similarities. (Bad pun, I know... ) In my opinion, the biggest reasons for the differences have to do with specific application adaptations.

- Bill