Nice post Bill-Sensei. You confirm some of my own observations, such as the Okinawan philosphy of overwhelming force in a single technique. You really don't see this in Chinese styles, do you?
And this approach does limit use of nukite, shoken, and hiraken as strikes, does'nt it?
And something I have always wondered which directly related to Jake's original thought(or Musashi's, I guess.) If we are not going to do all the conditioning that is required of us to use our "pointy" weapons, why would we constantly continue to train these techniques in our kata? The only reason I can think of is a nukite can be a closed fist technique too. The nukites toward the end of seisan for instance could be seen as pulling your foe into a low uppercut to the ribs or some similarly located target like the kidneys. Other than that, it does seem to me we might be "doing something which is of no(or little/limited) use".
Musashi and Kata (wasting time??) II
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Bill Glasheen
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Musashi and Kata (wasting time??) II
I'm in 100% agreement with you on the lower-gate nukite. I've never seen a convincing demonstration of it used on the ribs. But yes...the concept of attacking below the opponent's elbow with the palm up (as opposed to vulnerable back-of-hand up) is conveyed in the lower-gate nukite, and can be applied with closed fist as well as with weapon attacks.
As for not training the hands properly, I think a generation or two just skipped this. Some of it is being "rediscovered" and practiced in various dojo. Crosstraining in activities like rock climbing also helps. For many, a good thrusting shoken can be elusive. But we all can find SOME use for this versatile technique.
Actually I never thought I would ever use the sanchin nukite. Then one day Bruce Siddle demonstrated the gag reflex on me (1984) via a thrust on the sprasternal notch (with a thumb I might add). Then I saw Jim Thompson do a very bizarre modification of a move in kanshu. He'll do things like that (things he learned from 10 years with Uechi Kanei) and not tell you what he's doing unless you catch it and insist he shows you. It's an interesting teaching technique of his. Since then (and after several demonstrations that even surprised me), I have come to be a believer. Some of these techniques are more like lock-and-key, and the application is best when in bad breath range, or when some attacker has you in a clinch and you have the time and distance to pull it off.
- Bill
As for not training the hands properly, I think a generation or two just skipped this. Some of it is being "rediscovered" and practiced in various dojo. Crosstraining in activities like rock climbing also helps. For many, a good thrusting shoken can be elusive. But we all can find SOME use for this versatile technique.
Actually I never thought I would ever use the sanchin nukite. Then one day Bruce Siddle demonstrated the gag reflex on me (1984) via a thrust on the sprasternal notch (with a thumb I might add). Then I saw Jim Thompson do a very bizarre modification of a move in kanshu. He'll do things like that (things he learned from 10 years with Uechi Kanei) and not tell you what he's doing unless you catch it and insist he shows you. It's an interesting teaching technique of his. Since then (and after several demonstrations that even surprised me), I have come to be a believer. Some of these techniques are more like lock-and-key, and the application is best when in bad breath range, or when some attacker has you in a clinch and you have the time and distance to pull it off.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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Musashi and Kata (wasting time??) II
Another point to LenTesta...
In another thread, Van point out how - if you check - you do not find punches to the face in Uechi kata. You certainly do not find any punches in The Big Three. What you do find to the head are techniques like hammerfist and boshiken (manifested as palm heel??).
And...it's an interesting coincidence that the modern self-defense instructors preach against punching to the face - something very anti-karate if you think about it. The rationale is staying away from accidentally hitting teeth with your fist. While we modernists can take antibiotics after a bite, folks in the old days risked severe illness and even death from bites or cuts from an opponent's mouth.
- Bill
In another thread, Van point out how - if you check - you do not find punches to the face in Uechi kata. You certainly do not find any punches in The Big Three. What you do find to the head are techniques like hammerfist and boshiken (manifested as palm heel??).
And...it's an interesting coincidence that the modern self-defense instructors preach against punching to the face - something very anti-karate if you think about it. The rationale is staying away from accidentally hitting teeth with your fist. While we modernists can take antibiotics after a bite, folks in the old days risked severe illness and even death from bites or cuts from an opponent's mouth.
- Bill
Musashi and Kata (wasting time??) II
Damn, wish I was close to Virgina! BTW one place I could see myself hiting with a shoken or any pointy weapon would be the throat, good point.
That sounds like a cool teaching technique. "When the student is ready, the teacher will apear".
That sounds like a cool teaching technique. "When the student is ready, the teacher will apear".
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Bill Glasheen
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Musashi and Kata (wasting time??) II
This thread is being restarted to have mercy on people's downloading capabilities.
This is the most recent post, from LenTesta
************************
Bill G Sensei
The sokuto geri found in Kumite 1 and Kyu Kumite might have been added to Kanshiwa to enhance the practice of this kick. The intermediate student of the past did not get the benefit of practicing this kick, since it is not in any of the original three. I believe Kanei Sensei might have had this in mind when creating the kata.
However I have some questions.
Why do you suppose that there is no seiken in any kata other than Kanshiwa, and there are no shoken strikes in any kumite?
Was Kumite 1 and Kyu Kumite originally from the system Paingainoon (or Noongaipan, do we really know the correct name? Maybe that is for another thread.) that was taught to Kanbun Sensei or did Kanei make them up also?
This is the most recent post, from LenTesta
************************
Bill G Sensei
The sokuto geri found in Kumite 1 and Kyu Kumite might have been added to Kanshiwa to enhance the practice of this kick. The intermediate student of the past did not get the benefit of practicing this kick, since it is not in any of the original three. I believe Kanei Sensei might have had this in mind when creating the kata.
However I have some questions.
Why do you suppose that there is no seiken in any kata other than Kanshiwa, and there are no shoken strikes in any kumite?
Was Kumite 1 and Kyu Kumite originally from the system Paingainoon (or Noongaipan, do we really know the correct name? Maybe that is for another thread.) that was taught to Kanbun Sensei or did Kanei make them up also?
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Bill Glasheen
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Musashi and Kata (wasting time??) II
LenTesta
Kumite 1 and Kyu Kumite are most definitely the products of Okinawan authors.
Written history (Mattson, Dollar, and McCarthy) states the following:
Uechi Kanbun learned/brought from China:
* Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiryu
* Conditioning methods
* Sparring
* Medicine
* Written documents?? (The Bubishi)
* Another kata partially learned and/or not taught?? (Suparinpei)
Uechi Kanei's generation (not just Uechi Kanei) developed/added the following:
* Kanshiwa, Kanshu, Seichin, Seiryu, Kanchin
* Various yakusoku kumite (#1, kyu, dan, etc)
* Various versions of bunkai kumite (seisan, kanshiwa)
* Hojoundo and Junbiundo
* Okinawan karate techniques (seiken, various kicks, etc)
* Makiwara and other conditioning methods
* Sport karate
Further generations have developed the following:
* Other versions of bunkai kumite (Kanshiwa, Seisan, Sanseiryu, etc)
* Other yakusoku kumite (Yakusoku, Kadena kumite)
* Etc.
So now addressing your specific questions... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Did the people Kanbun trained with use a seiken? I don't know. I doubt it was emphasized as it is on Okinawa in modern Uechi ryu. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Also, the yakusoku kumite of Okinawan Uechi ryu have ignored a basic capability of the art Kanbun learned. Take a restraint/submission class from Bruce Siddle of P.P.C.T., Jimmy Malone, or some other person experienced in law enforcement. Evan Pantazi can also give you some good ideas. Many real situations involve using pointy things in a grabbing and grappling mode to get an opponent's attention, break a hold, or attempt to have them submit. We see some use of this in seisan bunkai (the grab/lift/turn), but none in the yakusoku kumite. The latter are more like WKF karate. Grappling and controlling is where the shoken really can come in handy.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited April 28, 2000).]
Kumite 1 and Kyu Kumite are most definitely the products of Okinawan authors.
Written history (Mattson, Dollar, and McCarthy) states the following:
Uechi Kanbun learned/brought from China:
* Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiryu
* Conditioning methods
* Sparring
* Medicine
* Written documents?? (The Bubishi)
* Another kata partially learned and/or not taught?? (Suparinpei)
Uechi Kanei's generation (not just Uechi Kanei) developed/added the following:
* Kanshiwa, Kanshu, Seichin, Seiryu, Kanchin
* Various yakusoku kumite (#1, kyu, dan, etc)
* Various versions of bunkai kumite (seisan, kanshiwa)
* Hojoundo and Junbiundo
* Okinawan karate techniques (seiken, various kicks, etc)
* Makiwara and other conditioning methods
* Sport karate
Further generations have developed the following:
* Other versions of bunkai kumite (Kanshiwa, Seisan, Sanseiryu, etc)
* Other yakusoku kumite (Yakusoku, Kadena kumite)
* Etc.
So now addressing your specific questions... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Good question. If you look at the limited number of techniques in the Big Three (tm) and look at the training implements discovered in visits to Fuzhou, you might surmise that what Kanbun studied was quite different from the Uechi ryu that is practiced today. The seiken is really the trademark and forte of Okinawan karate. What Kanbun was exposed to in his kata and conditioning methods was an art that used very different and difficult-to-develop weapons on vulnerable spots of the body. You might also conclude that there was more grabbing/grappling practiced in the China art given the dual nature (thrust vs. grab)of techniques like the shoken, boshiken, and hiraken.Why do you suppose that there is no seiken in any kata other than Kanshiwa...
Did the people Kanbun trained with use a seiken? I don't know. I doubt it was emphasized as it is on Okinawa in modern Uechi ryu. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
The official word is that they are too dangerous to use in common classroom practice. The real truth probably includes that as a reason, but there are also other considerations. First of all, by introducing an easier technique to fall back on (the seiken), most never train the forearms/fingers enough to use the shoken effectively, nor did they learn some of the tricks used in applying it. Talk to Bob Campbell about this some time. Secondly, a technique like this is designed to be used (when used as a thrust) rather precisely on specific areas of the body. Our yakusoku or prearranged kumite are pretty basic, as are the sparring methods used in most dojos. And finally, Okinawan karate has taught the concept of overwhelming force in an attack with sloppiness allowed in implementation (for practical reasons). This doesn't fit well with the use of shoken as thrusting implement (as opposed to grab)....and there are no shoken strikes in any kumite?
Also, the yakusoku kumite of Okinawan Uechi ryu have ignored a basic capability of the art Kanbun learned. Take a restraint/submission class from Bruce Siddle of P.P.C.T., Jimmy Malone, or some other person experienced in law enforcement. Evan Pantazi can also give you some good ideas. Many real situations involve using pointy things in a grabbing and grappling mode to get an opponent's attention, break a hold, or attempt to have them submit. We see some use of this in seisan bunkai (the grab/lift/turn), but none in the yakusoku kumite. The latter are more like WKF karate. Grappling and controlling is where the shoken really can come in handy.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited April 28, 2000).]
Musashi and Kata (wasting time??) II
Bill
Thanks for clarifying the kumite issues.
I was almost sure that Kanbun did no kumite but I needed verification. I have read Sensei Mattsons first book years ago when I first made Shodan, and keep it at the school for reference. I had noticed the origins after posting my message.
One thought about the nukite. It can be used under the rib of a non-karate studying attacker if used on the reverse side of the body. For instance the defenders right nukite will fit quite nicely under the attackers right floating rib, if the defender is not focused in the stomache area which is why I say a non-karate studying attacker. The floating rib can then be grabbed and pulled on the return thrust. If the stomache is focused though, you will need to have some very strongly conditioned fingers to get in and under the floating rib. Once you have grabbed the rib, it does not take much pressure to break it on the return thrust. I would try this in a clinch, after executing some type of stunning blow to the head, while my opponent was trying to inhale. It will only work in close range. I practice nukite strikes on a hanging bag to condition the fingers. Been doing it off and on now for a few years during classes when I can get off to the side by myself. It takes many years of constant practice to be able to hit the bag with your fingers, close to kata speed. I can not do it yet.
Now that I am writing about Conditioning the hand techniques. One area where I have success in conditioning is the bushikens. I can hit the bag very hard with these strikes and constantly practicing the mawashi uke and the movements of Sanseiryu, striking the bag. If using the bushiken first to the midsection then following up with a nukite as described above, I think It would be effective.
Thanks for clarifying the kumite issues.
I was almost sure that Kanbun did no kumite but I needed verification. I have read Sensei Mattsons first book years ago when I first made Shodan, and keep it at the school for reference. I had noticed the origins after posting my message.
One thought about the nukite. It can be used under the rib of a non-karate studying attacker if used on the reverse side of the body. For instance the defenders right nukite will fit quite nicely under the attackers right floating rib, if the defender is not focused in the stomache area which is why I say a non-karate studying attacker. The floating rib can then be grabbed and pulled on the return thrust. If the stomache is focused though, you will need to have some very strongly conditioned fingers to get in and under the floating rib. Once you have grabbed the rib, it does not take much pressure to break it on the return thrust. I would try this in a clinch, after executing some type of stunning blow to the head, while my opponent was trying to inhale. It will only work in close range. I practice nukite strikes on a hanging bag to condition the fingers. Been doing it off and on now for a few years during classes when I can get off to the side by myself. It takes many years of constant practice to be able to hit the bag with your fingers, close to kata speed. I can not do it yet.
Now that I am writing about Conditioning the hand techniques. One area where I have success in conditioning is the bushikens. I can hit the bag very hard with these strikes and constantly practicing the mawashi uke and the movements of Sanseiryu, striking the bag. If using the bushiken first to the midsection then following up with a nukite as described above, I think It would be effective.
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Jake Steinmann
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- Contact:
Musashi and Kata (wasting time??) II
"And...it's an interesting coincidence that the modern self-defense instructors preach against punching to the face - something very anti-karate if you think about it. The rationale is staying away from accidentally hitting teeth with your fist. While we modernists can take antibiotics after a bite, folks in the old days risked severe illness and even death from bites or cuts from an opponent's mouth."
Interesting. I was taught something similar, but for a totally different reason. It's very easy to break your knuckles on someones forehead with an ill placed punch.
As T. Blauer points out "if Tyson can break his hand in a street fight, so can you..."
Ken Shamrock also writes something to the effect of "anyone who's ever been in a fight without training probably has a broken knuckle" (or something like that...don't have the book).
Billy,
In my limited experience, most chinese styles tend to emphasize speed over power. There are some forms where power still plays a big part, however...check out Tiger Claw or Hung Gar sometime. Those guys hit to hurt!
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Interesting. I was taught something similar, but for a totally different reason. It's very easy to break your knuckles on someones forehead with an ill placed punch.
As T. Blauer points out "if Tyson can break his hand in a street fight, so can you..."
Ken Shamrock also writes something to the effect of "anyone who's ever been in a fight without training probably has a broken knuckle" (or something like that...don't have the book).
Billy,
In my limited experience, most chinese styles tend to emphasize speed over power. There are some forms where power still plays a big part, however...check out Tiger Claw or Hung Gar sometime. Those guys hit to hurt!
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
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maurice richard libby
Musashi and Kata (wasting time??) II
Jake wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In my limited experience, most chinese styles tend to emphasize speed over power. There are some forms where
power still plays a big part, however...check out Tiger Claw or Hung Gar sometime. Those guys hit to hurt!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am a little puzzled by this distinction. Power is, by definition, composed of strength and speed, isn't it? Thus the more speed the punch has, the more power you generate. Or am I being too pedantic here?
Anyway, the people I have been learning from lately punch very fast and very hard, and can shoot off two or three punches in the space of time that most people can do one.
maurice
------------------
maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
ICQ9474685
Ronin at large
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In my limited experience, most chinese styles tend to emphasize speed over power. There are some forms where
power still plays a big part, however...check out Tiger Claw or Hung Gar sometime. Those guys hit to hurt!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am a little puzzled by this distinction. Power is, by definition, composed of strength and speed, isn't it? Thus the more speed the punch has, the more power you generate. Or am I being too pedantic here?
Anyway, the people I have been learning from lately punch very fast and very hard, and can shoot off two or three punches in the space of time that most people can do one.
maurice
------------------
maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
ICQ9474685
Ronin at large
-
Bill Glasheen
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Musashi and Kata (wasting time??) II
Ahhh, so many morsels of wisdom here, and so little time.
LenTesta wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
In reference to reasons why you shouldn't punch to the head (I mentioned cuts from a filthy mouth), Jake wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As T. Blauer points out "if Tyson can break his hand in a street fight, so can you..."
Ken Shamrock also writes something to the effect of "anyone who's ever been in a fight without training probably has a broken knuckle" (or something like that...don't have the book).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> YES!! And look at the UFC match (UFC III I believe) where a Kempo karate guy beat the all time heaviest and number 2 ranked sumo wrestler. In the end, he beat the guy around his head and neck until he was senseless and helpless (on his hands and knees). But in the process, he broke his hand and couldn't advance to the next match. Ooooops! Talk about ingraining bad habits...
Maurice Libby wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am a little puzzled by this distinction. Power is, by definition, composed of strength and speed, isn't it? Thus the more speed the punch has, the more power you generate. Or am I being too pedantic here?
Anyway, the people I have been learning from lately punch very fast and very hard, and can shoot off two or three punches in the space of time that most people can do one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Another interesting comment worth a thread all its own. Rich Castanet and I started a thread on this earlier, and it went over a lot of peoples' heads. We were talking about the definition of "chi", and were instead quoting statistics in a chart supplied by a gun manufacturer (Glock) about the energy vs. momentum of various caliber models.
There are a lot of ways to think about this. If I could be an egg-headed engineer, I would talk about impulse functions, frequency response, etc. But then I'd lose everyone, and Evan would swear I was being more obscure than I accuse him of being on occasion. So...I must have such discussions with the likes of Rich Castanet and other dweebs who understand Fourier transforms and the like.
Think of it this way. A punch has two major components: the shock and the follow through. A fast punch is like a fast bullet that can have a LOT of energy - even more than high caliber rounds like the 45. But the follow through (Jimmy Malone calls this "time on contact"; others call this focus) supplies the momentum that can do a different type of damage and supply "stopping power". Plus, it's possible for a strike (and a bullet) to have too much energy and essentially go right through the target without damage. It's also possible to have lots of momentum but too little energy and basically just push the person down or away. Both components are important, and the optimal specifications for an attack depend on the intent and the desired end.
- Bill
LenTesta wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Talk about seeing the right statement made at just the write time... Go read my post on the Jim Thompson visit, and see if you don't get an epiphany from one or even several of the points.One thought about the nukite. It can be used under the rib of a non-karate studying attacker if used on the reverse side of the body. For instance the defenders right nukite will fit quite nicely under the attackers right floating rib, if the defender is not focused in the stomache area which is why I say a non-karate studying attacker. The floating rib can then be grabbed and pulled on the return thrust. If the stomache is focused though, you will need to have some very strongly conditioned fingers to get in and under the floating rib.
In reference to reasons why you shouldn't punch to the head (I mentioned cuts from a filthy mouth), Jake wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As T. Blauer points out "if Tyson can break his hand in a street fight, so can you..."
Ken Shamrock also writes something to the effect of "anyone who's ever been in a fight without training probably has a broken knuckle" (or something like that...don't have the book).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> YES!! And look at the UFC match (UFC III I believe) where a Kempo karate guy beat the all time heaviest and number 2 ranked sumo wrestler. In the end, he beat the guy around his head and neck until he was senseless and helpless (on his hands and knees). But in the process, he broke his hand and couldn't advance to the next match. Ooooops! Talk about ingraining bad habits...
Maurice Libby wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am a little puzzled by this distinction. Power is, by definition, composed of strength and speed, isn't it? Thus the more speed the punch has, the more power you generate. Or am I being too pedantic here?
Anyway, the people I have been learning from lately punch very fast and very hard, and can shoot off two or three punches in the space of time that most people can do one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Another interesting comment worth a thread all its own. Rich Castanet and I started a thread on this earlier, and it went over a lot of peoples' heads. We were talking about the definition of "chi", and were instead quoting statistics in a chart supplied by a gun manufacturer (Glock) about the energy vs. momentum of various caliber models.
There are a lot of ways to think about this. If I could be an egg-headed engineer, I would talk about impulse functions, frequency response, etc. But then I'd lose everyone, and Evan would swear I was being more obscure than I accuse him of being on occasion. So...I must have such discussions with the likes of Rich Castanet and other dweebs who understand Fourier transforms and the like.
Think of it this way. A punch has two major components: the shock and the follow through. A fast punch is like a fast bullet that can have a LOT of energy - even more than high caliber rounds like the 45. But the follow through (Jimmy Malone calls this "time on contact"; others call this focus) supplies the momentum that can do a different type of damage and supply "stopping power". Plus, it's possible for a strike (and a bullet) to have too much energy and essentially go right through the target without damage. It's also possible to have lots of momentum but too little energy and basically just push the person down or away. Both components are important, and the optimal specifications for an attack depend on the intent and the desired end.
- Bill
Musashi and Kata (wasting time??) II
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
In another thread, Van point out how - if you check - you do not find punches to the face in Uechi kata. You certainly do not find any punches in The Big Three. What you do find to the head are techniques like hammerfist and boshiken (manifested as palm heel??).
And...it's an interesting coincidence that the modern self-defense instructors preach against punching to the face - something very anti-karate if you think about it. The rationale is staying away from accidentally hitting teeth with your fist. While we modernists can take antibiotics after a bite, folks in the old days risked severe illness and even death from bites or cuts from an opponent's mouth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I’m not certain that there were face punches in any Okinawan style of karate. In the tradition I study, we have high punches that finish at the level of the philtrum or even as high as the eyes, but these are generally punches to the throat or neck – it’s the follow-through after contact that takes you up to face level. Our actual attacks to the philtrum and eyes are not punches.
I say this with chagrin, because in my children’s classes I’ve taken to calling the high punches “face” punches, because that’s the easiest way to get the kids (6 and 7 years old) to direct the punches where I want them. I’m carelessly starting them on the wrong path. I’ll try to watch it from now on. Thanks for the reminder.
------------------
George Donahue
Nana korobi, ya oki.
In another thread, Van point out how - if you check - you do not find punches to the face in Uechi kata. You certainly do not find any punches in The Big Three. What you do find to the head are techniques like hammerfist and boshiken (manifested as palm heel??).
And...it's an interesting coincidence that the modern self-defense instructors preach against punching to the face - something very anti-karate if you think about it. The rationale is staying away from accidentally hitting teeth with your fist. While we modernists can take antibiotics after a bite, folks in the old days risked severe illness and even death from bites or cuts from an opponent's mouth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I’m not certain that there were face punches in any Okinawan style of karate. In the tradition I study, we have high punches that finish at the level of the philtrum or even as high as the eyes, but these are generally punches to the throat or neck – it’s the follow-through after contact that takes you up to face level. Our actual attacks to the philtrum and eyes are not punches.
I say this with chagrin, because in my children’s classes I’ve taken to calling the high punches “face” punches, because that’s the easiest way to get the kids (6 and 7 years old) to direct the punches where I want them. I’m carelessly starting them on the wrong path. I’ll try to watch it from now on. Thanks for the reminder.
------------------
George Donahue
Nana korobi, ya oki.
