Ah, I gotcha!(See light bulb now finally going on)
Interesting point, Tony-san. JohnC
A DOJO OATH
Moderator: Available
A DOJO OATH
Tony:
Ah, I gotcha!(See light bulb now finally going on) Interesting point, Tony-san.
JohnC
Ah, I gotcha!(See light bulb now finally going on)
Interesting point, Tony-san. JohnC
A DOJO OATH
I agree with Tim 100% __
I even dislike the Japanese terminology we use on the dojo floor and the implied requirement that we should know it in order to feel like we “belong”! Same as I always resented the implication that unless a student travels to Okinawa for training, he would never amount to anything. [Another way to control and make you feel inferior] __
If I walked into a dojo and saw examples of what’s been discussed above, I would be very amused, and saddened.
Then on the way out the door, I would laugh like hell at that bunch of self deluded morons, prime targets for kyusho no touch knockouts.
Anything that destroys individuality, [and make no mistake, it would in the long run by subtle control], is something to be wary of, especially in the martial arts.
------------------
Van Canna
I even dislike the Japanese terminology we use on the dojo floor and the implied requirement that we should know it in order to feel like we “belong”! Same as I always resented the implication that unless a student travels to Okinawa for training, he would never amount to anything. [Another way to control and make you feel inferior] __
If I walked into a dojo and saw examples of what’s been discussed above, I would be very amused, and saddened.
Then on the way out the door, I would laugh like hell at that bunch of self deluded morons, prime targets for kyusho no touch knockouts.
Anything that destroys individuality, [and make no mistake, it would in the long run by subtle control], is something to be wary of, especially in the martial arts.
------------------
Van Canna
-
DavidT
A DOJO OATH
I hope I don't offend any one but,
I pledge alligiance to the flag
of the United State of America
and to the Republic for which it stands
one Nation under God indivisable with liberty and justice for all.
I pledge alligiance to the flag
of the United State of America
and to the Republic for which it stands
one Nation under God indivisable with liberty and justice for all.
-
Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
A DOJO OATH
Tim,
Well said!
Canna-Sensei,
Much of what you say, as usual, makes sense.
I recall a prospective student visiting our kung fu school asking my sifu if he spoke chinese (my sifu is many things, but oriental isn't one of them).
My sifu looked at him and said "Man, do I look chinese? I'm an american. I speak English."
David,
Similarly, without trying to give offense, or take the thread on a total tangent: I no more liked watching a school full of students being forced to rise to their feet to recite that pledge than I would watch a dojo rise up and speak their kun. And, in point of fact, in most schools, it breeds dislike of the pledge, contempt for the oath, and serves no really useful purpose.
Food for thought.
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Well said!
Canna-Sensei,
Much of what you say, as usual, makes sense.
I recall a prospective student visiting our kung fu school asking my sifu if he spoke chinese (my sifu is many things, but oriental isn't one of them).
My sifu looked at him and said "Man, do I look chinese? I'm an american. I speak English."
David,
Similarly, without trying to give offense, or take the thread on a total tangent: I no more liked watching a school full of students being forced to rise to their feet to recite that pledge than I would watch a dojo rise up and speak their kun. And, in point of fact, in most schools, it breeds dislike of the pledge, contempt for the oath, and serves no really useful purpose.
Food for thought.
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
-
Rick Wilson
A DOJO OATH
Was going to write this big long thing but I it is quicker to just say:
Yeah, what Van said!
(Tim gets my vote too.)
Rick
Yeah, what Van said!
(Tim gets my vote too.)
Rick
-
DavidT
A DOJO OATH
I still don't see the problem with saying you will seek perfection of character, be faithful, endever, respect others, and REFRAIN FROM VIOLENT BEHAVIOR is a bad thing. Maybe if we were saying things like I will give all my money and property to the Dojo, Sensei can have my wife first, I will kill for my dojo, I will die for my dojo, Sensei Big Daddy is God, Ohmmmmmm, Ohmmmmmmmmm. If we had to say things like that I might agree. But come on.
And will someone tell me how to make a profile signiture thingy.
And will someone tell me how to make a profile signiture thingy.
A DOJO OATH
I do not, nor have my students (children and adults) chant Kanei Uechi's Principles of Practice in my dojo.
But I see nothing wrong with letting them take a copy home and learning them and adhearing to them.
Dojo rules however, are supposed to be learned and I question the students on them when promoting beginners to their first stripe.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DavidT:
At the top of the page where you see the POST NEW TOPIC button, there is a profile button underneath.
Click on this profile button
The next page will have you submit your password information to continue.
When on your updating your profile page you will see SIGNATURE
Type in what you want to have as your signature.
When you post a reply check off the box (under the window where you type in the message) Show Signature
Then Submit Reply
------------------
Len Testa
Tony-san:
You beat me to the punch
[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited August 25, 2000).]
But I see nothing wrong with letting them take a copy home and learning them and adhearing to them.
Dojo rules however, are supposed to be learned and I question the students on them when promoting beginners to their first stripe.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DavidT:
At the top of the page where you see the POST NEW TOPIC button, there is a profile button underneath.
Click on this profile button
The next page will have you submit your password information to continue.
When on your updating your profile page you will see SIGNATURE
Type in what you want to have as your signature.
When you post a reply check off the box (under the window where you type in the message) Show Signature
Then Submit Reply
------------------
Len Testa
Tony-san:
You beat me to the punch
[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited August 25, 2000).]
-
Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
A DOJO OATH
I once again must reference Kipling's monkeys (that's not what I mean and you know it, that's just sick...).
In Kipling's Jungle Books, the monkeys frequently make the comment "Because we say it, it must be so" (Quote may be a bit off, I have not read the books in a number of years). This comment, however, is frequently wrong. Saying it does not make it so.
We could have our students stand there and swear to uphold truth, justice and apple pie (or whatever), but unless they believe in it, the words are meaningless. And if they already believe in it, then what's the point of making them say it?
Food for thought
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
In Kipling's Jungle Books, the monkeys frequently make the comment "Because we say it, it must be so" (Quote may be a bit off, I have not read the books in a number of years). This comment, however, is frequently wrong. Saying it does not make it so.
We could have our students stand there and swear to uphold truth, justice and apple pie (or whatever), but unless they believe in it, the words are meaningless. And if they already believe in it, then what's the point of making them say it?
Food for thought
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
-
DavidT
A DOJO OATH
I still disagree but I see your point now. Thanks for the signiture tips guys.
------------------
"Before the beginning of great brilliance, there must be chaos. Before a Great person can begin something brilliant, they must look follish to the crowd."--I Ching
------------------
"Before the beginning of great brilliance, there must be chaos. Before a Great person can begin something brilliant, they must look follish to the crowd."--I Ching
A DOJO OATH
(sigh...)
Rote repetition can only create an ability to know and say the words.
These are all values and morals that good people (not just, but especially, martial artists) should strive for. The wording isn't all that important, it's the actions that show one's character.
Training and trying to live the highest of standards can be self-deceiving... (don't get upset yet, let me explain).
We all start out on our path trying to live the way and strive for certain moral values and qualities. (At least, as martial artists, I hope we all do...) But having lived through it and having seen it happen with others, very often we fool ourselves into thinking that we are being good living examples of our lofty "code of conduct"... (bushido, perhaps).
In reality, we have fallen into our own self-deception. Not that we're "bad" or that we're "failing" or that we're "untrue to our values"... just that we're too, ummmm, "comfortable". Too comfortable with the way we walk, talk, act, and think. (Sheesh... It's not that being comfortable isn't a worthy thing in and of itself either... Gawd, I don't feel like I'm getting this across... guess I'll just plod onward with apologies...)
Anyway, then something happens... who knows what it is, but it creates either the need or the opportunity for personal introspection, analysis, reassessment, and (hopefully) growth. Who knows how long this process will take and that is quite irrelevant given the fact that being on the path is just living life... For me, I've never completed that process and doubt I ever will. I always "lived within the code" (as it were) from things my Daddy taught me as a youngster. Then a series of events created both the need and the opportunity for my self reassessment.
Rather than bore with details, suffice it to say that, IMNSHO, we can truly believe we are living correctly and walking the path only to find through more contemplation and introspection that there is so very much more to it than we'd ever thought. I guess a different way to say it would be to visualize that you've always been following the path only to open your eyes one day and realize that you've just barely been staying on the edge of the road (perhaps even with a few drops off the shoulder sometimes
... and your new found vision allows you to see how different travel is in the middle of the road.
Be good to each other...
Rote repetition can only create an ability to know and say the words.
These are all values and morals that good people (not just, but especially, martial artists) should strive for. The wording isn't all that important, it's the actions that show one's character.
Training and trying to live the highest of standards can be self-deceiving... (don't get upset yet, let me explain).
We all start out on our path trying to live the way and strive for certain moral values and qualities. (At least, as martial artists, I hope we all do...) But having lived through it and having seen it happen with others, very often we fool ourselves into thinking that we are being good living examples of our lofty "code of conduct"... (bushido, perhaps).
In reality, we have fallen into our own self-deception. Not that we're "bad" or that we're "failing" or that we're "untrue to our values"... just that we're too, ummmm, "comfortable". Too comfortable with the way we walk, talk, act, and think. (Sheesh... It's not that being comfortable isn't a worthy thing in and of itself either... Gawd, I don't feel like I'm getting this across... guess I'll just plod onward with apologies...)
Anyway, then something happens... who knows what it is, but it creates either the need or the opportunity for personal introspection, analysis, reassessment, and (hopefully) growth. Who knows how long this process will take and that is quite irrelevant given the fact that being on the path is just living life... For me, I've never completed that process and doubt I ever will. I always "lived within the code" (as it were) from things my Daddy taught me as a youngster. Then a series of events created both the need and the opportunity for my self reassessment.
Rather than bore with details, suffice it to say that, IMNSHO, we can truly believe we are living correctly and walking the path only to find through more contemplation and introspection that there is so very much more to it than we'd ever thought. I guess a different way to say it would be to visualize that you've always been following the path only to open your eyes one day and realize that you've just barely been staying on the edge of the road (perhaps even with a few drops off the shoulder sometimes
... and your new found vision allows you to see how different travel is in the middle of the road.Be good to each other...
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
A DOJO OATH
I think the issue is only partly "saying it doesn't make it so." I think in the back of a number of folks' minds, they are thinking of cases where disreputable individuals and/or self-serving organizations have individuals chant slogans that are hypocritical and/or means to a less-than-savory end. I also believe there is a cultural clash here. In Japanese culture, the raised nail gets the hammer. "Wa" is a concept foreign to many of us, but part of the Asian mindset. Western culture - and U.S. in particular - has a greater emphasis on individuality, personal initiative, personal responsibility, entreprenerism, etc. There are times when each "way" shows its advantages, and other times when each shows its flaws.
And there is also the whole "secrecy" issue in general. This is all tangled with the red-flag issue of control.
On the other hand...the George Mattsons of the U.S. and Tony Blauers of that other place ( ) often live in an uneasy climate of political and social Nazi-ism. There are those who would have all martial arts instructors registered, would have all martial arts weapons banned (this is the case in many places), etc., etc. None of us wants to be the instructor of the next poster child for the legislative and litigative jerks among us. And lets face it - we teach and deal with violence. Look in nature where this is the case. Many species like wolves that use violence as a means of survival operate under strict rules of social order. Without that social structure, that same violence would put the species on a path of self destruction. With that social structure comes strict rules of protocol.
So can we not entertain the notion that there is merit to the intent of the proposal? And to those who (understandably) loathe the specific application of a chanted Kun, what would you suggest as an alternative?
Good discussion, by the way.
- Bill
And there is also the whole "secrecy" issue in general. This is all tangled with the red-flag issue of control.
On the other hand...the George Mattsons of the U.S. and Tony Blauers of that other place (
) often live in an uneasy climate of political and social Nazi-ism. There are those who would have all martial arts instructors registered, would have all martial arts weapons banned (this is the case in many places), etc., etc. None of us wants to be the instructor of the next poster child for the legislative and litigative jerks among us. And lets face it - we teach and deal with violence. Look in nature where this is the case. Many species like wolves that use violence as a means of survival operate under strict rules of social order. Without that social structure, that same violence would put the species on a path of self destruction. With that social structure comes strict rules of protocol.So can we not entertain the notion that there is merit to the intent of the proposal? And to those who (understandably) loathe the specific application of a chanted Kun, what would you suggest as an alternative?
Good discussion, by the way.
- Bill
A DOJO OATH
Tony-san,
Didn't you know that the Boogey-man turns invisible when the lights go on?
Glasheen-sempai,
It really makes little difference to me what language class is conducted in. I don't have any problem using the native names for techiniques... it's the other ritualistic phrases that give me pause. (I don't have a problem with them either... 'Cause I know what they mean...) It's the fact that nearly all the students I've ever met learn what to say and how to say it, but either through misinformation (maybe lack of knowledge) from the instructor or the lack of desire to find out, these students haven't the slightest idea what any of it means. (OK... when we start class, we gotta say to the Sensay, "On-ah-guy She-mahs" and then the Sensay is gonna tell us "Muck so"... that's when we bow down and kiss the ground and THEN we get to learn how to kick-ass!)
I attended a "McKarahtee" once where the instructor taught in "Japlish"... He was an american caucasian but he tried to speak some Japanese words and phrases to impress. When he spoke in English he tried to sound like a cross between Pat Morita in Karate Kid and David Carradine in Fung Fu... You know, that stilted broken english with a heavy oriental accent. Something I never heard from true masters, even in Japan! I actually had to leave the class and it took every bit of self control I had to wait until I got to my car before I practically died laughing! He couldn't even get simple phrases/pronounciation correct in Japanese! And I left shortly after I asked what one "proverb" he quoted us meant and he was so off base... ummm anyway... the rest of the students seemed to revere this guy as some sort of ultimate grand poo-bah sensei that could walk on water. I just thought he was an idiot. I mean, didn't he think that someday, sometime, someone might attend one of his classes that actually spoke Nihongo!
On the other hand, if you have a traditionalist sensei who understands what they're saying and can explain things to their students... better yet, a sensei that truly speaks the language, that can be an enhancement to the entire experience. I bet someone like Gary Khoury using Japanese in class could let you close your eyes and transport yourself to another time and place!
Didn't you know that the Boogey-man turns invisible when the lights go on?
Glasheen-sempai,
It really makes little difference to me what language class is conducted in. I don't have any problem using the native names for techiniques... it's the other ritualistic phrases that give me pause. (I don't have a problem with them either... 'Cause I know what they mean...) It's the fact that nearly all the students I've ever met learn what to say and how to say it, but either through misinformation (maybe lack of knowledge) from the instructor or the lack of desire to find out, these students haven't the slightest idea what any of it means. (OK... when we start class, we gotta say to the Sensay, "On-ah-guy She-mahs" and then the Sensay is gonna tell us "Muck so"... that's when we bow down and kiss the ground and THEN we get to learn how to kick-ass!)
I attended a "McKarahtee" once where the instructor taught in "Japlish"... He was an american caucasian but he tried to speak some Japanese words and phrases to impress. When he spoke in English he tried to sound like a cross between Pat Morita in Karate Kid and David Carradine in Fung Fu... You know, that stilted broken english with a heavy oriental accent. Something I never heard from true masters, even in Japan! I actually had to leave the class and it took every bit of self control I had to wait until I got to my car before I practically died laughing! He couldn't even get simple phrases/pronounciation correct in Japanese! And I left shortly after I asked what one "proverb" he quoted us meant and he was so off base... ummm anyway... the rest of the students seemed to revere this guy as some sort of ultimate grand poo-bah sensei that could walk on water. I just thought he was an idiot. I mean, didn't he think that someday, sometime, someone might attend one of his classes that actually spoke Nihongo!
On the other hand, if you have a traditionalist sensei who understands what they're saying and can explain things to their students... better yet, a sensei that truly speaks the language, that can be an enhancement to the entire experience. I bet someone like Gary Khoury using Japanese in class could let you close your eyes and transport yourself to another time and place!
A DOJO OATH
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
I also believe there is a cultural clash here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes there is... On occasions, sometimes in the span of a few minutes, I've been labeled both a Japanophile and a Japanophobe... and have been accused of "Japan-bashing" and "cutting them a break" within the same debate!
If you're interested, sometime I'll tell you about my 15 minutes of fame on NHK (Tokyo public television) which caused quite a stir there... even made the regular nightly news!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Old Japanese proverb meaning "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down."
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I also believe there is a cultural clash here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes there is... On occasions, sometimes in the span of a few minutes, I've been labeled both a Japanophile and a Japanophobe... and have been accused of "Japan-bashing" and "cutting them a break" within the same debate!
If you're interested, sometime I'll tell you about my 15 minutes of fame on NHK (Tokyo public television) which caused quite a stir there... even made the regular nightly news!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
"Deru Kugiwa Utareru!"In Japanese culture, the raised nail gets the hammer.
Old Japanese proverb meaning "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down."
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
In my humble experience, by the time someone has come to the dojo for awhile, certain over-agressive traits can be found out and either corrected or weeded out. It isn't infallable, but neither is anything else. Interestingly enough, as percentages go, Martial artists and gun owners exhibit much lower incidents of being involved in criminal activities, especially violent encounters! These facts don't deter do-gooder legislators who live to create more "people control".None of us wants to be the instructor of the next poster child for the legislative and litigative jerks among us. And lets face it - we teach and deal with violence.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I thought that's what folks were debating...So can we not entertain the notion that there is merit to the intent of the proposal?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
After a few levels of kyu ranks where the basics of etiquette, the rules and fundamental philosophies are learned, we always had a reading assignment for each rank. Formally, there was a short writing assignment where you were to write a paragraph or page with your thoughts on the assignment... not a "book report", just your thoughts, but those seemed to turn into "book reports"... Soooo, it ended up that first individually and then in a group, we'd have these discussion sessions on the reading. Individually allowed the Sensei to get your own thoughts without other's influence and to see that you had in fact read the material. In a group allowed for exchange of ideas and thoughts giving all the students a wide array of perspectives... On occasion, Shihan would take a completely opposite "devil's advocate" position just to see who would disagree and who'd blindly follow. I can tell you that blindly following was considered just as bad as not knowing basic techniques! You needed to have your own opinions and be able to give reasons for them. There was a thread a while back about what books to suggest for these types of reading assignments.And to those who (understandably) loathe the specific application of a chanted Kun, what would you suggest as an alternative?
-
Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
A DOJO OATH
Glasheen-Sensei,
Of course, there is a history of disreputable instructors creating small cults. The "saying it makes it so" example was more directed at those instructors who are actually trying to do the right thing with the Kun.
Cults are a different issue. Any instructor who's kun includes things like "We will give all of our money to the instructor" falls in the David Koresh Ryuha, and should be dealt with appropriately.
In Blauer Tactical, we do teach with a strong consideration for the legal and moral implications of the kind of tactics we use. Coach always makes a big point of stating that according the law, force must parallel danger (please, no lawyers start going into this, I'm working on a general example), and that your primary directive is always to avoid a confronation, and end it/get away from it ASAP.
But there are no rituals, no formal codes. Simply reminders of what you legally can and cannot do.
I said it before, and I'll say it again: Any instruction in combatives (armed or otherwise) should always teach with a moral and ethical background behind the tactics and tools that they are teaching.
But...I think a chanted oath takes things way to far.
Food for thought.
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Of course, there is a history of disreputable instructors creating small cults. The "saying it makes it so" example was more directed at those instructors who are actually trying to do the right thing with the Kun.
Cults are a different issue. Any instructor who's kun includes things like "We will give all of our money to the instructor" falls in the David Koresh Ryuha, and should be dealt with appropriately.
In Blauer Tactical, we do teach with a strong consideration for the legal and moral implications of the kind of tactics we use. Coach always makes a big point of stating that according the law, force must parallel danger (please, no lawyers start going into this, I'm working on a general example), and that your primary directive is always to avoid a confronation, and end it/get away from it ASAP.
But there are no rituals, no formal codes. Simply reminders of what you legally can and cannot do.
I said it before, and I'll say it again: Any instruction in combatives (armed or otherwise) should always teach with a moral and ethical background behind the tactics and tools that they are teaching.
But...I think a chanted oath takes things way to far.
Food for thought.
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
-
DavidT
A DOJO OATH
Gobbledy-####?, Mindless automatons?, WHINEY mindless automatons? WOW!!!!
------------------
"Before the beginning of great brilliance, there must be chaos. Before a Great person can begin something brilliant, they must look follish to the crowd."--I Ching
------------------
"Before the beginning of great brilliance, there must be chaos. Before a Great person can begin something brilliant, they must look follish to the crowd."--I Ching
