Strongest Move?

[dtk81]

What is the strongest strike you can do. Would it be a kick, knee, elbow or just a punch or other. Of the move that would be strongest or do most damage, what type would it be. Like for punches I know it is a variation of a hook per say is the strongest out of punches.. etc

please reply in the best of your knowledge and experience.

[gmattson]

I don't think anything can compare to a simple, powerful elbow strike! No other body weapon is as naturally devestating as the elbow.

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GEM

[paul giella]

I agree with sensei george; it's the elbow strike that we do over and over again in all the kata. When I wear the High Gear suit and have the class do the Kanshewa and Seisan bonkai with contact (me as the attacker)I am regularly impressed that almost everyone does that strike with much more force than any other. Probably because that is the move that most naturally involves throwing the entire weight of the body behind it.

[Allen M.]

I learned the power of the elbow strike when I used to break boards. I stand behind GEM and Paul. The knee, when smasing something onto it with two hands, is also very powerful if done with the right snap [from my days of chopping firewood].

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

[Bill Glasheen]

I agree with GEM et al...up to a point. Hey, it wouldn't be fun if we didn't disagree and challenge peoples' thinking now, would it?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

What is the strongest strike you can do.

Hmmm...that depends on what your definition of "strong" is.

* By strong, do you mean the maximum total amount of force delivered by the body? If so, then I have to agree with GEM et al on the elbow strike (actually I prefer an elbow thrust, and second the knee thrust). I might also add the side thrust and back kicks, but that's because I've had experience in styles that use these. The gluteus maximus is the strongest muscle in the body, and those techniques recruit that muscle quite well.

* By strong, do you mean the maximum total amount of force per unit area? Well then I have to disagree with my friends. Sure...put the body armor on and you feel those techniques that deliver a lot of total force. But take away the armor that spreads force, and you have another ball game. I kinda like fingers in the eyes, whacking the testicles, a shoken or double nukite in the suprasternal notch, a well placed bite, etc.

* By strong, do you mean not force, but energy? Well force depends a lot on mass and strength (here I use strength by its scientific as opposed to vernacular use). But energy taps into velocity. Knee and elbow techniques are very slow. But give me a decent palm heel thrust, spinning hook kick, or spinning/looping punch or strike and I can impart a lot of energy on someone or something. You see...force knocks you on your butt. In the gun world, that's what a .45 does. But high energy tears and breaks things. Thus in the gun world, a smaller round that goes at high speed can rip through things (sometimes unfortunately go right through stuff unless you make the bullet do something interesting...).

* By strong, do you mean what has the greatest effect? Well then what you hit with is one thing; where you hit (and in how many places) makes things much more interesting. I can have the kids hit me hard all day long under "normal" sparring rules. But let my 2-year-old bump his head into my nose or mouth, and you can really get my attention.

And that's why we learn so many different ways to hit and strike, and custom our arsenals to our individual students' strengths.

- Bill

[dtk81]

ic yea I meant, what move would do the most damage or inflict the most damage to an individual. lets say the head of an individual.

i figured in physics since force=mass times acceleration. a kick would do the most damage. you would also account for torque which in fact elbows,knees, and kicks have. The kick would have the greatest total force out of those moves since the longer the object the more torque or pounds per square inch you would have. plus there would be more mass i believe in a kick and more acceleration.
I kick would also create the most kenetic energy which is energy of movement is 1/2mass times velocity squared (k=1/2mv^2).
also you would account for the density of the what you are using to strike it with and the elbow would have the most density other than your head. how dense an object would be, would affect its damage because it will absorb some of the energy thus during the impact. In a physics enviroment you would have to account for all those. heh its alot of math. but with the proper measuring devices and know how I would be interested in seeing whats the deadliest move out of those.

What you said Bill about individual strengths I totally agree with, and its hard to say whats the best move to use because everyone is different. I guess im accounting for perfect conditions where the fighter would be well rounded in all areas.

My thoughts would be between a good jumping hook kick since you would generate lots of kenetic energy and force. I am using an educated guess as hook kick since I am no martial arts expert and there can be more advanced kicks that I dont know of. Or just a plain old head bunt using all your weight lundging forward. then again I head bunt in the stomach wouldnt be that inflicting since most of the energy would be absorbed. A head bunt would probably just be good for a face shot. An elbow is diffinatly strong and id rather break boards with my elbow than my head though. if you want to go deadly literally..... a good chop at the throat will do it.
And thanks for a very good answer or answers Bill along with the others.

[This message has been edited by dtk81 (edited October 08, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by dtk81 (edited October 08, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by dtk81 (edited October 08, 2001).]

[Stryke]

Yup I agree with you all , all big shots , as for the kicks ive got to go with the ushiro-geri , I dont know anyone that can stop a good one even if you know its coming (there are a lot of bad ones ... mine included ) , pure close in destruction , elbows and knees , My verdicts out on the spinning kicks , sure there hard but are they really harder , This is my shotokan style prejudice showing through i guess , maybe another thread in itself . Any tkd enthusiasts want to enlighten me ??

[gmattson]

A kick, although potentially "stronger", delivers (spreads?)the energy over a larger surface area and thus is less effecient than a blow of less strength, delivered with the point of an elbow or single knuckle.

Now I've seen some spinning "hook" kicks, using the heel as a weapon. Pretty impressive, but difficult to execute.


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GEM

[candan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gmattson:
I don't think anything can compare to a simple, powerful elbow strike! No other body weapon is as naturally devestating as the elbow.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Been playing with elbow strike, when grab or punch comes in I make distance by going into wide stance while reaching behind attackers shoulder guiding him into an elbow strike. His forward movement and using my "retreating" mass to pull him into a torquing elbow strike. note: the guiding arm follows a circular motion to the shoulder blade and is not fully extended, similar to knee strike in Seisan...Seems to work for me

[ecalavia]

Sensei Glasheen Could you please tell me how to do a knee thrust? I have had luck in snaping my knee up but can't see how to thrust it forward very well. I am also curious about elbow thrusts since I have been trying to snap my strikes and not put a lot of shoulder into them, could you mean a lunging thrust to a horse stance, leading with the elbow? Again I keep trying to time it to snap up into the bag for example, rather than just lunging. How would I thrust it? I am confused.

[dtk81]

ic gmatt yea that makes sense.
so then that means the elbow would do the most damage since its the greatest single point and the hardest.
though mathametically the kick would be the greater force, but that may just be in perfect conditions where the point is focused on one area or one point. also providing that what you mention the kick would be hard to connect creating greater risk to when excuting.

[This message has been edited by dtk81 (edited October 08, 2001).]

[Bill Stockey]

Nakazato of Shorin Ryu claimed he could easily kill with a front kick. Yamaguchi Gogen thought the elbow was for this purpose. I think it is the move that you favor and work the most with(given certain parameters)

[Guest]

Strongest strike? This hits me a wee bit like the chicken egg question.

Strongest strike/weakest target.

I too am a big fan of the elbow. Of late I've been exploring the elbow strike as a head grab.

closing the distance and encircle the head/neck in the forearm and bicep.

pull the head in to your chest area as you pull your fist into your chest like in a closed gate position with one elbow up.

your wide open for a countershot,time to get on the outside and safety,spin to your back side,take the head with you.

do this move fast.....it's over!

do it slower......neck injury and takedown

Strongest strike may actually be the one we execute instinctively to the proper target.

Laird

is this uechi or is it grappling? guess it depends on how you see kata.




[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited October 08, 2001).]

[Bill Glasheen]

ecalavia

I understand how you can be confused on the subject of a knee thrust vs. knee strike, or an elbow thrust vs. an elbow strike.

The problem with the elbow "movement" is most people do their kata one way, and that way is often with as much upper body power - particularly with the elbow part - as possible. You know how it is - upper body flexing is such a manly thing. Funny...the truth is that teachers and judges of kata often ruin them as practical application tools, because there is so much emphasis on the appearance of power. Sigh...

Let me start with a statement I often make that is designed to shake the concrete thinking people have about kata movements. The classic lateral elbow "movement" seen in every Uechi kata except sanchin can be used in the following applications: a strike, a thrust, a block, a throw, and a lateral neck restraint (choke hold). If you study the kata, study similar systems from Fuzhou, and look at old pictures of applications as seen in various Uechi references, you will see this to be true.

The secret here (and also in the knee thrust) is in the lower body. If you stand still and swing the elbow, all you get is a strike and a block. But move the body in one of a number of ways, and the other possibilities come right at you.

Forget swinging your shoulder wildly or leaning or anything like that. If you want to learn how to thrust with your elbow, just take a look at how the classic medieval art of jousting works. Want to see something interesting? Look at a jouster in action. But first...see if you can block out the movement of the horse. What do you have left? Well...you have a guy sitting up straight. He positions his shield. At the last second, he carefully, slowly aims his pole...and that's it - period. It looks rather silly without the horse. Now...consider the mass and speed of a horse charging forward, with a man on the back in perfect posture. The man locks his shield in place, and locks the pole in place. Posture is everything; there is no upper body movement. All he needs to do is lock the shoulders down, keep the body in perfect alignment, and grip on the horse with his legs for dear life.

Now, remove the horse and instead add strong legs that charge forward. Just aim the elbow, pull the shoulders down, tuck the rear under, firm the trunk, and you are set. All the force of your charging legs gets concentrated in the hard, small tip of your elbow. This technique was meant to break a sternum. Practice it on a bag. Practice it with the bag swinging to and fro, and make sure you time it right. It is lethal on a charging opponent.

The rising elbow thrust in seisan is really no different. It isn't the movement of the arm that makes this lethal; it's the driving of the support leg. I actually prestretch the support leg by dropping while blocking, and attempt to recruit a plyometric response in the back leg. It's similar to dropping down before jumping up for a rebound. But in this case you direct the neuromuscular response straight forward. In the Goju (Yamaguchi Gogen) example that Bill Stockey refers to, the practitioner adds another degree of freedom of motion by rotating the upper body while still keeping the elbow pointing forward.

The knee thrust is a bit more than that, but one principal holds. The knee strike is all about the action (hip flexors) of the striking leg/knee, and the direction of the attack is straight up (often into a face pulled down). But a knee thrust is more about forward movement of the body, and an additional rotational motion of the support leg at the last second. Whether you realize it or not, the toe-in of sanchin is "cocking the trigger" for this technique. The more you toe in, the more rotational movement of the support leg you can include into the total motion. Now...add a pulling motion of the arms (as in seisan kata) and you have yourself a technique that'll fold your opponent. The neat thing about really toeing out on the support leg for the seisan knee thrust is that the subsequent technique (the groin strikes) can benefit from the hips and support leg swinging back in the other direction. When done right, there is very little "strength" needed with the upper body. The arms become more like cracking the whip.

Another way to think about this is by doing a roundhouse knee thrust. It is the classic knee technique of the Tai Boxer to the ribs. It isn't so much about the hip flexion of the striking knee/leg as it is about an exaggerated rotation of the support leg, and even a movement of the arms/shoulders in the opposite direction (perhaps while holding on to the opponent). The principles of how the support leg and arms set up the roundhouse knee technique are so strikingly similar that one must conclude this technique is a natural extension of the classical Uechi kata, and not strictly the domain of the Muay Thai practitioner.

Anyhow, hope that helps. It's often difficult to write your way through something like this. The classroom is always the better alternative.

- Bill

[ecalavia]

Sensei Glasheen!!! YAHOO!!! I was hoping you would say that! As I have been told, get your hips into it. That is as good an answer as I could hope for without demonstrating.
OH and I am pleased you mentioned the elbow target. When I saw everyone's math projections I was tempted to post: elbow strike plus sternum equals broken chest but you did it for me! Thanks squared