Personal Katas

Bruce Hirabayashi · Post by **Bruce Hirabayashi** » Wed May 15, 2002 1:21 am

Sorry Ian ... we're slowly spiralling your intelligent and well-framed thread into a morass of ancient University of Virginia memories and fond reminincences relevant to only 2 or 3 of us

... oh well ... the danger of public forums ....

Reading about Ray Berry and seeing his post brings back 20-year old (but still surprisingly vivid) memories for me. I started Uechi-ryu with Bill at the University of Virginia (UVA) in September 1979 ... Ray was a guest instructor at several classes over the years, and he never failed to leave a lasting impression with me and virtually all of the students who happened to attend those classes. Three distinct memories come to mind:

1) His kicks .. especially the side kicks. The UVA dojo is in a very large room in an 80+ year-old building with a creaky wooden floors, 15-foot ceilings and wooden rafters. Despite the fact that he was (at least as best as I can remember), a quite lean 5'8" or so, his side kicks literally shook the floors and windows. Being myself of average height and rather thin (at the time), his example gave me my first "first-person evidence" that one did not have to be 6+ feet tall and 190+ lbs. to deliver significant power. This was important inflection point in my training. Up until then I'd been physically pushed about by most of the other students in class; this "revelation" gave me incentive to keep pluggin' away at it (probably, at the time, to Bill's dismay

)

2) Ray's intensity and energy ... he seemed to never relax or slow down during the 2-hour workouts. His intensity demanded the class's full attention and once "captured", students literally could not escape his "energy field" (for lack of a better term) until the final bow out. Many students would later tell me that they were literally "drained of energy" for several days after one of his classes.

3) A quote during his last visit. He once told the class, in a reflective moment, that it wasn't always necessary to kick, punch and do kata to train in martial arts ... that if done with the proper intent / purpose, one could get an effective workout as well while doing something like painting. This comment has continued to intrigue me for many years ...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:

"Kicking the baby seal" ... (this) later, irreverent name comes from Bruce Hirabayashi's warped sense of humor. Apparently this name appears to have gained favor in my absense...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Though it is true that many things about me are "warped" (including my sense of humor), I don't know if it was me or Bryan Burke who should claim credit for the "Kicking the Baby Seal" name. The name originally referred to the 45-degree downward thrusting kick exercise rather than the horizontal side kick exercise. After all, baby seals are close to the ground and look up at you with those big brown eyes ....

The name did make several less callous students such as Maria Olivas and Kathryn Ballenger (later to become Yondans) squirm in distaste, which only caused the name to catch on all the more firmly amongst us adolescents ...

Ah ... the old days ...

Cheers,

Bruce Hirabayashi

[This message has been edited by Bruce Hirabayashi (edited May 14, 2002).]

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Wed May 15, 2002 2:15 am

Bruce Hirabayashi wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

Sorry Ian ... we're slowly spiralling your intelligent and well-framed thread into a morass of ancient University of Virginia memories and fond reminincences relevant to only 2 or 3 of us ... oh well ... the danger of public forums ....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ian,

I started the digression and I apologize. It is hard to describe the influence Ray has had on my practice, not to mention my life.

To return to your original post, you wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

The prearranged forms we learn can also be a little stifling because we only do one, or no, applications for a given move and never come up with our own.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it is very important to come up with one's own ideas about applications of moves and combinations from kata. Then find an uke and play with the ideas. Sometimes, an uke from another style can see things one may miss or see similarities to something else. Once the creative juices flow, the possibilities are amazing. In this way, a core kata becomes one's personal kata or can be practiced as such.

I also know that TCM "theory" is scientifically suspect, but examining kata with an eye to that paradigm can reveal possibilities.

So, to actually answer your question:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

So does anyone have a personal kata or one under construction? What did you learn from making it? How'd it change?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I keep opening doors in the kata I am learning and haven't had time to think about my own, yet. I also practice in a school where, at shodan, we have learned 25 kata, including 2 weapons. A fact of this is that I really don't KNOW 25 kata. I can do the sequence of moves with snap, power and timing, but... heck, I've got a catalog of stuff to peruse for the rest of eternity.

Kind of an interesting juxtaposition to your post, I guess.

------------------
ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

Ray Berry · Post by **Ray Berry** » Wed May 15, 2002 5:57 am

Hello Bill,
Your forum is so much more civilized than ours (Shotokan Karate of America) is...it was very funny and a more than a little pleasing to see that you remember good things about me, whether they are deserved or not.

I thought we met around 1971 though. In 1974 I did travel back and forth to C'ville but I was in graduate school at UNC-G until '75. I am so addled by age, I really don't remember what my "excercises" were! Probably the big basic side kick and maybe the triple kick combination. I'm still practicing...not like I was in those days, though. I will try and get together with you soon and we can make up things about ourselves.

If you don't mind me sitting in on your forum from time to time, maybe I can share some things that we all have in common.

My best to all you Euchi-ryu people from an old, creaky Ohshima Shotokan guy.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Wed May 15, 2002 2:35 pm

Ted, Bruce, I don't mind the digressions at all. I'm pretty much homesick for UVa and enjoy the stories.

Ted, what're your thoughts of having such a multitude of katas to learn? In Uechi we only have three. Whoops, I mean eight. But the eight are basically the three chopped up and reassembled a few substitutions here and there. Part of the teaching I got early on (in brief) was that the other five were tossed in for the short attention spans of the American GI's and that it was important to have a core set of fundamentals one could use in diverse situations (like English: few dozen letters, thousands upon thousands of words) rather than a diverse list of separate techniques (japanese: each word a separate character, and harder to learn to write). What's the perspective from the multi-kata side?

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Wed May 15, 2002 3:20 pm

Ian,

There are times when I feel overwhelmed just trying to remember them all. The "brain cramp" or "flatline" is good for a chuckle at almost every class when one of us just forgets how to start or finish a randomly called kata.

We are responsible for 4 bunkai from each as part of testing. These bunkai are not standardized, the testing board has to agree that the technique would work and that it represents a level of understanding representative of the rank for which the candidate is testing. Stress is abundant.

The reasons for the huge catalog are noble, however. One, we want to preserve as many as we can. Two, we are all different people and the odds of one finding "their" kata are maximized. As one progresses, there are kata that we do because we have to and kata we feel a connection to. I like the English/Japanese parallel, but what I have found is that one tends to have a few favorites from each kata and a few kata which yield seemingly infinite possibility.

Breaking down kata is one of our main points of focus and we climb all through them every chance we get. Remembering the myriad of discoveries is impossible. But, what we cultivate is an understanding of basic principles that we can randomly find applications of in our kata.

For me, there is an unfettered creativity that is developing. No matter what the opponent presents, a response is forthcoming. I certainly can't say the response would always work, but I know there will be one.

I think, in the end, the two approaches (a few studied very deeply and many studied for universal principles) come to the same destination.

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ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

[This message has been edited by Ted Dinwiddie (edited May 15, 2002).]

Bruce Hirabayashi · Post by **Bruce Hirabayashi** » Wed May 15, 2002 11:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ian:
... In Uechi we only have three (kata). Whoops, I mean eight. But the eight are basically the three chopped up and reassembled a few substitutions here and there. Part of the teaching I got early on (in brief) was that the other five were tossed in for the short attention spans of the American GI's ...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Ian!

Katas often originate, develop and change for reasons that one would least expect!

For example, Master Tomoyose dropped a gem of information at last summer camp. In front of a crowd enthusiastic Uechi-ka, he was asked why the other 5 kata were developed. He laughed his elfen-like laugh, and asked us if we really wanted to know the truth. He proceeded to tell us that after WWII they were all so poor that it was often a struggle to find the money necessary to feed their families. One of the things they could do was hold karate demonstrations and charge spectators an entrance fee. Problem was, they'd do 3 kata, some breaking, some sparring and they'd be done ... the spectators were miffed because they felt that they had not gotten their money's worth. So Kanei Uechi, R. Tomoyose and their contemporaries got together to develop additional kata so their demos would be longer and people would be willing to pay money to see it ... !

More recently (last week) Dana Sheets and Heather Lipin visited my dojo in Atlanta. Dana showed me the Seichin she'd done at a recent tournament. It was interesting to me because (among other things) she'd added 3 moves to the kata. When I asked her about it, she said she'd picked up 2 of the three additional movements from James Thompson. He told her that the moves were in Seichin when originally developed, but were later dropped out. He'd kept the moves in because he likes them. And in fact, the moves, added right after each of the front 45-deg offset front kicks, substantially improve the flow of Seichin (IMHO).

I would try to describe the moves to you, but it would be better to ask Dana to send you a video.

Bruce

[This message has been edited by Bruce Hirabayashi (edited May 15, 2002).]

Gene DeMambro · Post by **Gene DeMambro** » Fri May 17, 2002 4:23 am

(1) How 'bout a class in 38 Special at camp?

(2) How 'bout inviting Dana to teach Intermediate kata at camp, especially teaching the new/old Seichin?

Gene

Bruce Hirabayashi · Post by **Bruce Hirabayashi** » Fri May 17, 2002 6:30 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gene DeMambro:
(1) How 'bout a class in 38 Special at camp?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If Bill is kept busy in camp (as usual) by his legions of Supraempai fans, I would be happy to teach a class on the three Ray Berry-influenced kick exercises, 38 Special, 7-Kick Kata.

And if there are interested Uechi-ka, I would also be glad to run people thru another favorite University of Virginia (UVa)-dojo activity: mirror-image kata. UVa's interest in mirror-image kata started 22 years ago when Dave Finklestein was Bill Glasheen's primary instructor. This is not to say others don't do mirror-image kata as well; it's just that many UVa-derived dojos make it a formal part of the curriculum for Kyu-rank. For those of you who have never done it, it's an interesting experience.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gene DeMambro:
(2) How 'bout inviting Dana to teach Intermediate kata at camp, especially teaching the new/old Seichin?

Gene<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure Dana and Heather would love to teach the "new/old" Seichin; last I heard, they definitely planned on partipating in August.

Even better would be to ask them to show their current ideas/techniques on how smaller people without overly strong upper bodies can still deliver tremendous power in a very relaxed fashion. Dana/Heather are in the Nakamatsu - Frank Gorman - Bob Kaiser line, and have been naturally heavily influenced and shaped by these superb teachers. But in the fashion of true artists, rather than merely imitate what they've been shown, they have taken things a step further, making it relevant for their size and bodies. I know of few Uechi-ka that have the tremendously high power-to-weight ratio displayed by these women. They are a credit to themselves and their teachers.

Cheers,

Bruce

Deep Sea · Post by **Deep Sea** » Fri May 17, 2002 9:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

James Thompson. He told her that the moves were in Seichin when originally developed, but were later dropped out. He'd kept the moves in because he likes them. And in fact, the moves, added right after each of the front 45-deg offset front kicks, substantially improve the flow of Seichin (IMHO).

I like that, and would like to learn those extra moves as well.

Two-thumbs up for Dana for relating those moves.

------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

SAN-DAI-RYU · Post by **SAN-DAI-RYU** » Sat May 18, 2002 5:15 am

hello to all also I liked to learn it, if in fact they were original movements from the beginning Carlos

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat May 18, 2002 11:27 pm

Bruce would definitely represent the 38-special and other kicking exercises well. People just need to recognize them for what they are. Just as Joe Pomfret is putting together grappling routines to teach the Uechi fighter so they understand these "foreign" movements, the 38-special and other such routines are there to keep our defenses from becoming "inbred." Viewed in that manner, they are valuable training tools.

A secondary point of the 38-special was to teach begining students all the basic stances of traditional Okinawan karate. I was fully aware that most of the folks that graduated from this college town were going to end up in places where there was no Uechi ryu. So one of the purposes of this and other exercises was to make it possible for someone to step into another typical martial arts school and have a basic foundation for an entirely different art. Within the 38-Special are all the basic stances that are not done in the narrow set of movements in Uechi ryu. However the form also was designed to teach an individual how to transition between the more shallow southern Chinese stances and the deeper traditional karate stances.

Finally, a great benefit is that the exercises get people in fantastic shape. UVa students used to complain bitterly if they didn't get a good "sweat" when they walked in from a day of classes. All I needed was 10 to 20 minutes of this training, and I could steam the windows/mirrors and get a half dozen folks sitting on the sidelines gasping for air. A water break later, they were ready to settle down and do some tedious technique work.

- Bill

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Mon May 20, 2002 4:42 pm

Gene - that you for the support, and Bruce!!! You're going to get me in trouble!
I mean...Thank you very much for the kind words.

And just to claify: James Thompson did not "keep the moves in the kata" he just remembered that the moves were once there. I have not seem him perform the kata with the extra techniques. I've only seen him demontrate the techniques separately from the form. And, my brain may be a little off on that detail - but I don't want to get Mr. Thompson in any trouble. He's also the one that told us not the modify the katas -- so I'm already going against orders.

The modified Seichin kata I showed Bruce is a fusion of several influences - one technique done twice from James Thompson, combination timing from Tomoyose sensei, power generation from Nakamatsu sensei and one move that's added by little ole me because it made sense to my Uechi brain.

I'd be happy to share and show anyone the form at camp. Though it would, of course, be preferable for Mr. Thompson to come and show it himself -- he does it far better than I do. Seichin is one of my favorite in the uechi system (even if it was only added ad a "demo" kata) I think Uehara Sensei and the others who developed it put together a strong series that tests the "oak tree" mentality and demands that the practitioner be able to move from soft to hard to soft in a natural and flowing way.

Dana

[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited May 20, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited May 20, 2002).]

zugwa2u · Post by **zugwa2u** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:34 pm

Toyama Kanken, Dai Shihan had a beautiful personal kata that he taught to only six of his closest students. Three of them are now dead. Takazawa Masano, the only student Toyama gave a dojo to...the KEI SHIN KAN in Tokyo, was one of the students he taught. When Takazawa taught me this kata he said, "You will know those who are truely of Toyama by this kata. If they know it they are of Toyama's inner circle...if not they were but mere acquaintenances in training." The kata is called Nanajushi. It is long and powerful and took Toyama a lifetime to perfect it to his standards. Takazawa also worked with Toyama on the creation of Juroku and Juhachi. He said that Mabuni saw it and made a change or two and introduced it as his...but it was Toyama's kata solely, as is Juhachi. Funny how things like that happen...even in Okinawa/Japan, the ego is hard to resist and defeat!

Bruise* Lee · Post by **Bruise* Lee** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:25 pm

I enjoyed studying 2 different systems of Pakua Chang (Ba Gua). WIth Park Bok Nam in Boston for about a year and a half, and off and on with John Painter.

Both systems have forms. For example Painters system (Jiu Long Ba Gua Chuan) has 8 forms, or 8 palms. One for example is earth palm - sort of a spiraling twisting palm action. 2 people may do a Earth Palm form, and it look 100% different. One may emphasize double palm changes (both hands used simultaneously) - such as both palms twisting upwards at the same time, both palms twisting downwards - and use a shuffle step (the same foot forward as you shuffle forward). The other person may use a single palm change, one palm twisting up or down with using a full step (one foot moving in front of the other). This is a gross simplification - but both may be entirely correct.

The first official "form" Park teaches is a straight line form (not circular). One person may take 3 steps forward on the first line, while another person may literally take 50 steps forward before reversing the line - and both are entirely correct.

Some of the earlier "forms" taught by Park are mostly footwork forms. Straight line forms, Y shaped footwork forms (you step along a Y shaped pattern), + shaped forms (stepping in a cross pattern), then combination forms such as a + with a Y on the end of each side of the +. Then circular forms etc. As you circumnavigate along these patterns on the floor students perform a series of palm strikes, footsweeps, elbow strikes, joint locks etc.

So 2 students could be asked to demonstrate a plus (+) line form, and do a simple + shaped form, one emphasizing elbows strikes and takedowns, the other palm strikes and joint locks - to the casual observer it would look like completely different forms - yet Park might say they did the exact same form and both were perfectly correct - since their footwork was correct.

Another way forms were done both by Park and by Painter was in the interpretation. For example the elbow can be used to block or to strike. As in Seiken Tsuki (zuki) or Karate punching, - Parks palm strikes often involve one palm going out while pulling the other palm back, many overlook pulling the palm back - but in Parks system it can be viewed as a rearward elbow strike. Park teaches a huge array of elbow movements - at all sorts of angles, and in all sorts of combinations.

So three classmates could be asked to demonstrate a elbow form using the straight line foot pattern - one demonstrating back and forth elbows with the interpretation being blocking and moving backwards on the straight line (going backwards one way, turning around and going backwards the other way), the other doing elbows along a 45 degree slant with the interpretation being attacking the lead limbs of the opponant while moving forwards to one end of the straight line - turning around and moving forwards back down the line, and the third student might use up and down motions of the elbow while going forwards one way and then backwards the other - with the interpretation of the upward motion being a attempted strike that failed (the opponant dodges) the downward motion being a block against an upper cut counter attack from the opponant and the next upward elbow being another upward elbow attack to the opponants chin.

Two students could do the exact same moves - a full step forward followed by a lead arm arm outside to inside across the body elbow movement, followed by an inside to outside/backward elbow movement, followed by a palm movement forward - one might see it as a double elbow attack followed by a push, the other as a failed elbow strike, followed by an elbow block, with a successful palm strike. In Karate I sometimes see the typical Gedan Barai "down block" as a elbow block for a strike to my body followed by a downward hammerfist to the abdomen or groin - my downward block is with the elbow. After studying Pa Kua I cannot see the blocking movement being carried out with the forearm or hand anymore - it violates the Pa Kua principles - I have to view the block as occuring with the elbow.

These are all examples...not good ones just ones that come to mind. As long as all 3 students followed correct principles of use of yin/yang, 5 elements, and bagua (change) - Park would say all 3 forms were correct. However to the outside observer when all 3 were asked to do a straight line elbow form might think they did 3 different forms.

Park tries to teach the principles of yin/yang, 5 elements - flow of life - how to make your teachniques "alive", and pa kau/i ching - principle of change how hard changes to soft etc - so you know how to combine your techniques correctly.

Pa Kua is somewhat like Jazz music some have said in which there is alot of room for interpretation. Ask 3 basketball players to dribble straight down the court and do a set shot might do it very differently - a gaurd might shoot from an outside position, and a center might shoot from inside the lane. Their choices would be a matter of their relative strengths and weaknesses when facing the expected opponant. As long as they followed correct basketball principles (not carrying the ball when dribbling, not traveling when dribbling, not spending too much time inside the key, shooting at the correct basket, not fouling the other player etc) both players might be said to do it correctly. One might switch hands back and forth while dribbling, one might shoot with the left hand and one with the right, one might head fake before taking the shot, one might fake a pass to another team mate before making the shot etc. But both dribbled in a straight line and did a set shot.

Likewise in the Pa Kua systems I have studied it was interesting to see that there was no real one correct set exact way to do any form. There was correct ways to take a step, correct ways to throw a shaking palm, and a correct way to throw 3 basins palm etc - but the forms themselves have a lot of freedom for individual expression.

Under Sacharnoski I was able to learn a small bit of Motobu-ryu and was told its older system has a very similar room for self expression.

My understanding is that the older the system is traced, the more it is like basketball - you learn your tools (layups/palm strikes, jump shots/punches, set shots/elbows, dribbling/footwork, passing/blocking, rebounding/joint locking) and while you may develop some plays, there is also a lot of individual freedom in how the tools are organized based on relative size, strengths and weaknesses.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:27 pm

Bruise* Lee wrote: My understanding is that the older the system is traced, the more it is like basketball - you learn your tools (layups/palm strikes, jump shots/punches, set shots/elbows, dribbling/footwork, passing/blocking, rebounding/joint locking) and while you may develop some plays, there is also a lot of individual freedom in how the tools are organized based on relative size, strengths and weaknesses.

Well put. My impression is the same. This seems particularly true with the Chinese systems. The idea of a "style" or ryu as we understand it today was counterintuitive to them.

But you can still get there with the fixed kata approach, so long as you start pulling the forms apart and begin to see past the sequences and into the "grammar" of martial movement.

- Bill