"Dana, it seems that the intensity and volume of the kiai is directly proportional to the distance that you extend your will. know what I mean?"
I think most of the noises we make are about extending our will. Max, if you are a master with a hammer, then making more noise way not have extended your intent any if you are already masterful at putting your full intent (and thus abilities) into each stroke of the hammer.
I think of a kiai or the spirit of a kiai is actually silent. It is simply the moment when you galvanize your intention. Sometimes folks make noise to do that, sometimes they narrow or widen their eyes, sometimes they do none of the above.
Making any kind of noise means you're breathing out and if you make those sounds during sparring or between movements of kumite then I know that most likely the instant you stop making sounds you're going to need to draw air. And that might be a good moment for me to attack.
What's circling around in my head is that idea that if you're thinking about making a sound and putting conscious effort into it, then it's taking time to have those thoughts and you're not availalbe for fighting. If sounds happen without thought - as part of your fighting experience then that might be a different story.
grunting, growling, huffing, yelling
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maxwell ainley
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Dana I don't have a problem with anything you say ,first of all I give full and equal respect to all that as been posted .
If we possess insight into our inner workings etc ,this will reflect our capacity to face up to a adversary ,to gain deeper insight into our inner most being 'long sustaned periods of quiet will be vital to accomplish this objective ,quite simply we can see only a limited way from within the constant stream of thoughts that we produce ,inner and outer quiet will be vital ,mastery over exterior noise eqate's our inner noise ,a mastery over the two aspects ,does not suggest the practioner can't , in self defence introduce some noise ,remember all fight senarios come across the whole range of human activity ,and we cant always get away with a bull in a china shop tactics ,some situations fully require stealf ,quiet to match incoming threat ,inner /outer control is paramount .
If we possess insight into our inner workings etc ,this will reflect our capacity to face up to a adversary ,to gain deeper insight into our inner most being 'long sustaned periods of quiet will be vital to accomplish this objective ,quite simply we can see only a limited way from within the constant stream of thoughts that we produce ,inner and outer quiet will be vital ,mastery over exterior noise eqate's our inner noise ,a mastery over the two aspects ,does not suggest the practioner can't , in self defence introduce some noise ,remember all fight senarios come across the whole range of human activity ,and we cant always get away with a bull in a china shop tactics ,some situations fully require stealf ,quiet to match incoming threat ,inner /outer control is paramount .
max ainley
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maxwell ainley
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Dana, you are right in saying to extend our will into a kiai is correct ,but some noise's plus speech is a reasult of internal pressure 'that some times we some how just can't control ,some times we are fully aware of their presence and demand to surface ,other times we may not fully realize why we activate noise .
Basically the will can be simplified in to three aspects;the will of the body ,the will of the spirit and the will of the mind ,basically they don't work in unity ,we need to realize which will is at work in situations ,senarios ,training .
which is the dominant one normally amongst the three, who is in charge ,you will find great difficulty understanding this if you run around in general making a racket.
Not saying for a minute any specific person,is doing this I have been a culprit myself of this ,the will can then be sub divided into yet further parts of the human expression , to see this is essential.
Then with time comes understanding ,to see is step one to understand is step two .we think we are whole ,when in reality we are far away ,yet paradoxically we are close to home .
Basically the will can be simplified in to three aspects;the will of the body ,the will of the spirit and the will of the mind ,basically they don't work in unity ,we need to realize which will is at work in situations ,senarios ,training .
which is the dominant one normally amongst the three, who is in charge ,you will find great difficulty understanding this if you run around in general making a racket.
Not saying for a minute any specific person,is doing this I have been a culprit myself of this ,the will can then be sub divided into yet further parts of the human expression , to see this is essential.
Then with time comes understanding ,to see is step one to understand is step two .we think we are whole ,when in reality we are far away ,yet paradoxically we are close to home .
max ainley
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maxwell ainley
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Attempting to give a picture of the will /spirit in respect of inner and outer composure involved in a life and death battle ,this is from the Kage-ryu
Kamiizumi Nobutsuna ,master of the Kage-ryu ,To cut a long story short the master add received a challenge from a exponent of Kashima -ryu Nagayuki Kenzo.
To meet him in open combat tomorrow at dawn .
The window shutters of the room on the inn's second floorhad been opened,admitting the evening's cool air and allowing Nobutsuna the veiw of the surrounding hills ,tinged with springs green.He seemed absorbed in the vista.Jingo shifted his weight and tugged at the corners of his floor cushion.
Hikada, still holding the note of challenge ,finally cleared his throat to gain Nobutsuna's attention. With a measured calm that had grown perceptibly in the long pause after he had heard the message ,the swordsman spoke to Jingo.
"Kashima fencers take pride in the speed of their footwork" he said slowly .
"Watch this Nagayuki fellow closely tomorrow and you may learn something about striking as the lead foot advances"
Jingo's upper body inclined in a bow ,but he did not ask any questions. His master's ways he knew well. The politely worded invitation to kill or die had been delivered and received .From that moment until the completion of the duel's final blow ,Nobutsuna's concentration would be narrowed to an almost superhuman degree that left little room for any other thought .With him Jingo and Hikida continued in silence to watch the shadows lengthen on Mt.Asama
to cont,
Kamiizumi Nobutsuna ,master of the Kage-ryu ,To cut a long story short the master add received a challenge from a exponent of Kashima -ryu Nagayuki Kenzo.
To meet him in open combat tomorrow at dawn .
The window shutters of the room on the inn's second floorhad been opened,admitting the evening's cool air and allowing Nobutsuna the veiw of the surrounding hills ,tinged with springs green.He seemed absorbed in the vista.Jingo shifted his weight and tugged at the corners of his floor cushion.
Hikada, still holding the note of challenge ,finally cleared his throat to gain Nobutsuna's attention. With a measured calm that had grown perceptibly in the long pause after he had heard the message ,the swordsman spoke to Jingo.
"Kashima fencers take pride in the speed of their footwork" he said slowly .
"Watch this Nagayuki fellow closely tomorrow and you may learn something about striking as the lead foot advances"
Jingo's upper body inclined in a bow ,but he did not ask any questions. His master's ways he knew well. The politely worded invitation to kill or die had been delivered and received .From that moment until the completion of the duel's final blow ,Nobutsuna's concentration would be narrowed to an almost superhuman degree that left little room for any other thought .With him Jingo and Hikida continued in silence to watch the shadows lengthen on Mt.Asama
to cont,
max ainley
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maxwell ainley
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A few comment's on the opening aspect's of the build up to combat ,first of all this is the introduction to the psycological components .The Kashima fencer is attempting to gain the upper hand by the use of both the challenge and the time of duel .Two the survival of the Kage-ryu now hang's on complete inner and outer composure of both the master and his two students ,instead of discussing non entitys the ryu concentrates on the task in hand 'instead the master himself draws his pupils attention two combat technology of that distinct ryu ,a lesson to come for them in a reality situation ,in turn the pupils don't worry and create doubt and spread the seeds of fear ,by asking silly question's of their master ,they further reinforce the ryu's psycological counter measure's, by use of knowing their master's ways .
to cont
to cont
max ainley
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maxwell ainley
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I will pause for a moment and reflect upon a similar concept to the Kage-ryu ,in our ryu .By slowing down more is seen,less is missed the more you rush the less you see and the more confused you will be ,in taking in the all .
This slowing down as three levels ,seeing it ,understanding it ,and applying it . I came across this in the three year sanchin .
He watched with is whole being to determine if his presence had been noted.
If he crabbed backward,he thought frantically, he might be able to scoot away without being discoverd.Of course it was possible the sword carry stranger meant him no harm.He might have been a penniless travelar unable to afford a night at the inn ,spending it instead under the protection of the peach trees .
But he was well dressed and his cloths wern't damp with the morning's dew.The farmer tried to shrink himself into a huddled ball. one could not be too careful.
"Nobutsuna sama! I am here "
The farmer jerked when the voice cut into the milky morning air with knifing impateience .His efforts at staying concealed in the rapidly disappearing mists prevented him from noticing the arrival from the village road of a second man,also a stranger and also armed. If his startled little jump caught the attention of the swords man near him ,no sign was given .The still figure beneath the tree straightened and brushed at the knee of his hakama, then seperated himself from the border of the orchard to stand near the middle of the road .
"I am Nagayuki Kenzo , Nobutsuna sama" again the new-comer used the politest form of adress ,showing his awarness of Nobutsuna's reputation as a warrior . He bowed and narrowed the distance between them.Nobutsuna returned the bow ,holding his head out at a angle so that his neck was not exposed,a courtesy of samurai etiqutte .
" I am Kamiizumi Nobutsuna ,of the Kage-ryu."
to cont
This slowing down as three levels ,seeing it ,understanding it ,and applying it . I came across this in the three year sanchin .
He watched with is whole being to determine if his presence had been noted.
If he crabbed backward,he thought frantically, he might be able to scoot away without being discoverd.Of course it was possible the sword carry stranger meant him no harm.He might have been a penniless travelar unable to afford a night at the inn ,spending it instead under the protection of the peach trees .
But he was well dressed and his cloths wern't damp with the morning's dew.The farmer tried to shrink himself into a huddled ball. one could not be too careful.
"Nobutsuna sama! I am here "
The farmer jerked when the voice cut into the milky morning air with knifing impateience .His efforts at staying concealed in the rapidly disappearing mists prevented him from noticing the arrival from the village road of a second man,also a stranger and also armed. If his startled little jump caught the attention of the swords man near him ,no sign was given .The still figure beneath the tree straightened and brushed at the knee of his hakama, then seperated himself from the border of the orchard to stand near the middle of the road .
"I am Nagayuki Kenzo , Nobutsuna sama" again the new-comer used the politest form of adress ,showing his awarness of Nobutsuna's reputation as a warrior . He bowed and narrowed the distance between them.Nobutsuna returned the bow ,holding his head out at a angle so that his neck was not exposed,a courtesy of samurai etiqutte .
" I am Kamiizumi Nobutsuna ,of the Kage-ryu."
to cont
max ainley
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maxwell ainley
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A few comments,
Nobutsuna arrived early to meet the Kashima swordsman ,this could upset a mans stratergy who was striving for the upper hand ,Nobutsuna's inner/ outer state was calm alert to the farmer with the state of panic and slight noise , alert also to the approaching swordsman and the tone of his first vocal introduction of knifing impatience.
This would give away the Kashima swordsman's inner state, internal pressure was at work ,which could create external pressure on any action if the practioner did not address his state,and bring it back under mastery's protective wing .
Nobutsuna upon receiving the note of challenge was putting into effect his ryu's counter measure ,first of all the concentrative state protected him during the six to seven hrs to dawn,by avoiding imagination ,and the rise of either various negative emotional state's that would sap the masters energy level's and bring a weakening to the will .
to cont
Nobutsuna arrived early to meet the Kashima swordsman ,this could upset a mans stratergy who was striving for the upper hand ,Nobutsuna's inner/ outer state was calm alert to the farmer with the state of panic and slight noise , alert also to the approaching swordsman and the tone of his first vocal introduction of knifing impatience.
This would give away the Kashima swordsman's inner state, internal pressure was at work ,which could create external pressure on any action if the practioner did not address his state,and bring it back under mastery's protective wing .
Nobutsuna upon receiving the note of challenge was putting into effect his ryu's counter measure ,first of all the concentrative state protected him during the six to seven hrs to dawn,by avoiding imagination ,and the rise of either various negative emotional state's that would sap the masters energy level's and bring a weakening to the will .
to cont
max ainley
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maxwell ainley
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A few notes
I said the quiet atmosphere would spill over into the combat zone ,this is old aspect of our ryu
Ialso said on these forums I teach out of a quiet atmosphere ,this atmosphere is in sanchin ,I have never strayed from the three year sanchin concept, that concentration is a key element of that concept ,our old masters wanted us to get to grips with concentration straight away ,they were not prepared to wait .
At first I did not see this concentration , but when hit it me I realised with time I needed to understand it ,by slowly watching various influences in life of negative nature I realized I could will this concentration into a protective mode and stop dead in there tracks incoming negatives ,both outer and self created inner ones, this is training the will of the mind .
I said the quiet atmosphere would spill over into the combat zone ,this is old aspect of our ryu
Ialso said on these forums I teach out of a quiet atmosphere ,this atmosphere is in sanchin ,I have never strayed from the three year sanchin concept, that concentration is a key element of that concept ,our old masters wanted us to get to grips with concentration straight away ,they were not prepared to wait .
At first I did not see this concentration , but when hit it me I realised with time I needed to understand it ,by slowly watching various influences in life of negative nature I realized I could will this concentration into a protective mode and stop dead in there tracks incoming negatives ,both outer and self created inner ones, this is training the will of the mind .
max ainley
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maxwell ainley
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There was little differance in there overall appearances like Nobutsuna, Nagayuki wore a split hakama and the sleeves of his bright blue kimono were also bound up with string .
He had on the same haori overvest he had worn the day before.Wrapped around his waist was a wide cotten obi into which were thrust two swords, one long the same size as Nobutsuna's, the other shorter bya foot and a half . To indicate that he intended no surprise Nagayuki stretched his left arm down slowly until his fingertips touched the side of his long sword .
"Shall we begin ?"
Nobutsuna raised his hand "Two of my students are to be here to watch and learn. Could we wait a bit?"
For two weeks Nagayuki had known that he and the great swordsman were in the same area .Three days earlier he had been told of Nobutsuna's exact location at the inn . Suddenly the sleepless nights the vacant hours of speculating ,the tasteless meals forced down only to come up again almost imediately ,all of the wrenching anticipation of the encounter began .
The morass of bibbling fears his insides had become would have reducd a lesser human being to a state of quivering paranoia, but Nagayuki Kenzo was a samurai by birth and upbringing and while he may have been ambitios ,by no standards could he have been judged a coward .
Now, however, he sensed his carefully cemented composure cracle ever so slightly .His attention was focused on the moment , expecting it to play itself out to an imminent conclusion, that N obutsuna's unforseen delay threatened to slip the delicately balanced gears of his timing ,preventing them from catching again until it was too late . He struggled for self control while searching for a distraction .
He had on the same haori overvest he had worn the day before.Wrapped around his waist was a wide cotten obi into which were thrust two swords, one long the same size as Nobutsuna's, the other shorter bya foot and a half . To indicate that he intended no surprise Nagayuki stretched his left arm down slowly until his fingertips touched the side of his long sword .
"Shall we begin ?"
Nobutsuna raised his hand "Two of my students are to be here to watch and learn. Could we wait a bit?"
For two weeks Nagayuki had known that he and the great swordsman were in the same area .Three days earlier he had been told of Nobutsuna's exact location at the inn . Suddenly the sleepless nights the vacant hours of speculating ,the tasteless meals forced down only to come up again almost imediately ,all of the wrenching anticipation of the encounter began .
The morass of bibbling fears his insides had become would have reducd a lesser human being to a state of quivering paranoia, but Nagayuki Kenzo was a samurai by birth and upbringing and while he may have been ambitios ,by no standards could he have been judged a coward .
Now, however, he sensed his carefully cemented composure cracle ever so slightly .His attention was focused on the moment , expecting it to play itself out to an imminent conclusion, that N obutsuna's unforseen delay threatened to slip the delicately balanced gears of his timing ,preventing them from catching again until it was too late . He struggled for self control while searching for a distraction .
max ainley
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maxwell ainley
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"Only two students are coming?"
Nobutsuna answered affirmatively.
"Who then is watching us from in the orchard?"
Nobutsuna's expression hinted at something close to a smile .
"A peasant," he said matter-of-factly, shifting his weight to his right , opposite the side of his body were his sword was slung.
" He came stumbling through the rows while I was waiting , making enough noise for a troop of monkeys ...."Harmless."
Nagayuki crossed his arms and shrugged .Peasents ,as both he and Nobutsuna knew ,were like toothpcks: not especially attractive to behold or worthy of any comment ,they were nevertheless necessary for fullfilling a lowly task. He turned inward ,concentrating on calming himself with a rhythmic series of breathing exercises taught to exponents of the Kashima school
The ensuing silence was embarrasingly awkward .Men bent on killing one another have a certain reticence toward conversation at the time.
Shortly Hidika and Jingo hurried up breathless.As one, they bowed to their master and nodded respectfully to the man who would try to take his life.
Hidika murmured the reason for their tardiness. on leaving the village they missed a directional sign in the fog .After his explanation they retreated out of the way positioning themselves at the edge of the ditch .
Behind them in the orchard the farmer wondered and watched as if he were witnessing a spectacle from a foreign world.
Nobutsuna answered affirmatively.
"Who then is watching us from in the orchard?"
Nobutsuna's expression hinted at something close to a smile .
"A peasant," he said matter-of-factly, shifting his weight to his right , opposite the side of his body were his sword was slung.
" He came stumbling through the rows while I was waiting , making enough noise for a troop of monkeys ...."Harmless."
Nagayuki crossed his arms and shrugged .Peasents ,as both he and Nobutsuna knew ,were like toothpcks: not especially attractive to behold or worthy of any comment ,they were nevertheless necessary for fullfilling a lowly task. He turned inward ,concentrating on calming himself with a rhythmic series of breathing exercises taught to exponents of the Kashima school
The ensuing silence was embarrasingly awkward .Men bent on killing one another have a certain reticence toward conversation at the time.
Shortly Hidika and Jingo hurried up breathless.As one, they bowed to their master and nodded respectfully to the man who would try to take his life.
Hidika murmured the reason for their tardiness. on leaving the village they missed a directional sign in the fog .After his explanation they retreated out of the way positioning themselves at the edge of the ditch .
Behind them in the orchard the farmer wondered and watched as if he were witnessing a spectacle from a foreign world.
max ainley
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maxwell ainley
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A few comments The Kashima swords man was being psycolgically worked upon "A lesser man would have crumbled" inner calm is not just for followers of the Do arts ,at these levels the zen master and the samurai stand on common ground .
Nobutsuna's counter measures were working on the three aspects of the will ,causing the Kashima swordsman to resort to breathing technique ,to retain inner /outer composure .
Nobutsuna's counter measures were working on the three aspects of the will ,causing the Kashima swordsman to resort to breathing technique ,to retain inner /outer composure .
max ainley
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Dana Sheets
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with so much time....
With so much time to ponder a conflict inner peace and focus and be built.
I am enjoying the story - and will wait to see how it plays out and the moral. I'm also interested in your thoughts, Max, on how this lesson is important to women and all others who train today.
Dana
I am enjoying the story - and will wait to see how it plays out and the moral. I'm also interested in your thoughts, Max, on how this lesson is important to women and all others who train today.
Dana
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maxwell ainley
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Dana thanks to you for letting me continue,and if you are enjoying thanks again .
We all see things at our own unique level, but when say we post or comunicate on subjects .First of all we stack it against what we know our own understandings ,or we just take it with a pinch of salt ,or we study it give deeper thought to it ,my advice is we should be very critical ,and not end up in blind belief ,okay we all know this ??
The Kage-ryu pupils at the kill/die announcement ,obviously wanted to talk with their master ,but kept quiet , there lesson was to follow ,so this implys they were ready and armed with ryu counter measures they reinforce their master by collectively remaining quiet to build up the concentration ,the collective of the ryu at work ,they have seen and realized the workings of his counter measures ,so no need to be critical ,they have 100%faith in their master ,on that aspect ,
If there are lessons in what is being said ,it would be to invite ,not force our veiws to look how the master/student atmosphere involved at work .
The life/ death situation involved is a lesson to all of us in our ryu ,and other ryu's ,thats were our training needs to go , we need to turn doubt into faith , In my own teaching I make great use of doubt ,to not understand doubt is ignorance ,its like dark against light ,my task is to make the doubt work hard .
Are we prepared to lay down our life for our ryu ?or our dojo ,this ryu isn't built upon a pile of sand ,this is were concentration comes in to play .
It may start like the kids at infant school this is good , thats level 1 we need to take it to high school thats level 2 and further it at university thats level 3, level 4 is ready and armed ,we need to understand this concentration .
Concentration is no good with out patience quite simply we will fall victim to psycological time with out patience .The kage-ryu brought in to there technology patience ,methods that lack patience should be cast out ,this is both life and death stuff ,and also enlightenment are involved too.
We all see things at our own unique level, but when say we post or comunicate on subjects .First of all we stack it against what we know our own understandings ,or we just take it with a pinch of salt ,or we study it give deeper thought to it ,my advice is we should be very critical ,and not end up in blind belief ,okay we all know this ??
The Kage-ryu pupils at the kill/die announcement ,obviously wanted to talk with their master ,but kept quiet , there lesson was to follow ,so this implys they were ready and armed with ryu counter measures they reinforce their master by collectively remaining quiet to build up the concentration ,the collective of the ryu at work ,they have seen and realized the workings of his counter measures ,so no need to be critical ,they have 100%faith in their master ,on that aspect ,
If there are lessons in what is being said ,it would be to invite ,not force our veiws to look how the master/student atmosphere involved at work .
The life/ death situation involved is a lesson to all of us in our ryu ,and other ryu's ,thats were our training needs to go , we need to turn doubt into faith , In my own teaching I make great use of doubt ,to not understand doubt is ignorance ,its like dark against light ,my task is to make the doubt work hard .
Are we prepared to lay down our life for our ryu ?or our dojo ,this ryu isn't built upon a pile of sand ,this is were concentration comes in to play .
It may start like the kids at infant school this is good , thats level 1 we need to take it to high school thats level 2 and further it at university thats level 3, level 4 is ready and armed ,we need to understand this concentration .
Concentration is no good with out patience quite simply we will fall victim to psycological time with out patience .The kage-ryu brought in to there technology patience ,methods that lack patience should be cast out ,this is both life and death stuff ,and also enlightenment are involved too.
max ainley
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maxwell ainley
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Kage-ryu Literally meaning " shadow style" the Kage- ryu was one of the older ryu of swordsmanshipin Japan. The name refers to the "Shadow" or mental intent of an opponent, which was discerned by the skilled exponent of the Kage-ryu before a attack was physically begun. Aizu Hyuga no Kami Iko is credited with formally establishing the ryu. c.1500.
max ainley
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maxwell ainley
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comments
The Kage-ryu master was in a concentrated state ,when under the peach trees it altered to incorperate a more broader concentration that took in more of each present moment .
He understood his principles and was appling then in a very economical ,practical way . They were not just inactive principles they were alive to the threat to his life ,his understanding of psycological time was superb ,he was using the "Shadow" principle of that ryu to great effect ,enlightenment and "Time" are closely linked ,most people become slaves to time ,even thinking they are in command when they are not .
The Kage-ryu master had reached the [Timeless state] lost sight of in ordanary man .the Kashima swordsman was grasping for this state but it was not fully mastered .in psycological warfare this knowledge is a must .
Our ryu teaches this in sanchin ,heavy concentrative work no let up ,will break through to this state ,stop and start routines are virtually useless .
Why did Shuu sensei hand down that process to Kanbun sensei ,and why is sanchin so important from that veiwpoint alone , the [Timeless state ] when not understood his aimless ,we cling to time in lots of things ,correct work on sanchin will break this strangle hold on our use ,of psycological timing .
The Kage-ryu master was in a concentrated state ,when under the peach trees it altered to incorperate a more broader concentration that took in more of each present moment .
He understood his principles and was appling then in a very economical ,practical way . They were not just inactive principles they were alive to the threat to his life ,his understanding of psycological time was superb ,he was using the "Shadow" principle of that ryu to great effect ,enlightenment and "Time" are closely linked ,most people become slaves to time ,even thinking they are in command when they are not .
The Kage-ryu master had reached the [Timeless state] lost sight of in ordanary man .the Kashima swordsman was grasping for this state but it was not fully mastered .in psycological warfare this knowledge is a must .
Our ryu teaches this in sanchin ,heavy concentrative work no let up ,will break through to this state ,stop and start routines are virtually useless .
Why did Shuu sensei hand down that process to Kanbun sensei ,and why is sanchin so important from that veiwpoint alone , the [Timeless state ] when not understood his aimless ,we cling to time in lots of things ,correct work on sanchin will break this strangle hold on our use ,of psycological timing .
max ainley
