Sanchin...

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 3:23 pm

How often should I be doing Sanchin kata? I was told at least three times a day. Once just for the movements, second with proper breathing and third all out. Your thoughts?

flavor flav · Post by **flavor flav** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 5:48 pm

I was told to do it three times, so that by the completion of your final run through, you would be fatigued.

Deep Sea · Post by **Deep Sea** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 11:40 pm

How many times/day and how you do it depends, to a large degree, where you are on the time scale.

For one who is fairly advanced and does kata Van's "TC style," 3 times/session is plenty. For one who is in the earlier stages, more times/session would be better. The "more" there is a personal point of view.

I for one, dislike the term "all-out" because it can be, and often is, misleading. Often one who puts the all-out in the category of pure speed is doing himself a [I really want to say 'disaster'] disservice.

Often when practicing on one's own, a good middle-speed [again subjective], applying as much crispness as practicible is a great place to start and a good place to primarily remain at, and then deviate from, when experimenting in power and/or speed attributes when moved by the mood to do so is there.

CANDANeh · Post by **CANDANeh** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 12:10 am

flavor flav wrote:I was told to do it three times, so that by the completion of your final run through, you would be fatigued.

I prefer that Sanchin not produce fatique but actually increase ones energy level. In a hard workout Sanchin kata can be a welcomed breath of fresh air.

Josann · Post by **Josann** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 1:50 pm

Some sanchin should be done everyday. IMO sanchin is a versatile exercise that can be done slowly with dynamic tension to build strength, with a pause and hip movement driving the strike to build a compact strike or fast with attitude to develop spirit. It can also be done with a meditative mindset and become energizing. Most progressive relaxation techniques that are used in stress management training uses a contrast between a tense and relaxed muscle. Sanchin can do that also. Be creative with sanchin and it can be more than just some exercis that you do in the dojo, but a useful tool that can enhance you lifestyle ans well as your karate.

Josann

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 9:17 pm

Just had my first Sanchin lesson. Nothing in my previous training (15 years shotokan/shorin) had prepared me for it. I'll be going back for sure, it was very positive. Does anyone know how many verison of this kata are out their being done? I'm looking for more video on the net of Sanchin and other kata could anyone suggest a site?

Deep Sea · Post by **Deep Sea** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 2:08 am

There should be just one Uechi-ryu version. Differences enter into the equation primarily in the way it is taught, how it is taught, and what to emphasize. Maybe a slight hand or leg position and other trivial nuances between dojo, etc. that don't amount to much. Also differences enter into the equation depending upon what the student himself is focusing on during different years in his training.

One can argue the above, but then it would be a subjective argument.

If I wasn’t out of print with my books I'd point you there for a number of good Sanchin reasons.

However, just starting out as you are, don't put strength into the movements yet, and work on getting the basic flow, stepping, rhythm, stepping-off, wauke blocks looking and feeling good as much as you want to your hearts content. In the beginning it's all mechanically physical, and the more you do it the closer you become to achieving the esoteric beauties of the kata.

I've been at it almost 25 years and am still learning even though I thought I REALLY knew Sanchin after two years of diligent practice, if that'll help. All I can really say is just do it.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 4:21 pm

Most of us have exposure to two classic versions - the Uechi version and Miyagi Chojun's Goju version. Most of the rest of the world knows sanchin by various spinoffs of Miyagi's sanchin, where he closed the hands and changed the kata to a dynamic tension exercise.

The "original" was open-handed, like the Uechi sanchin. Various open handed precursor versions can be seen floating around, practiced by kata "collectors" like my friend Bill Stockey. One can find other primative versions of the form with names like "sam chien."

The essence is in the principles taught, and not the specific manifestations of the principles. So the various versions are mere distractions from the message that is being conveyed to the practitioner.

- Bill

KerryM · Post by **KerryM** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 9:42 pm

I like the three times a day- but while doing "sanchin" you can break a sweat- you don't have to wait for the "third" time to do so- It all depends on how you go about doing it- though I might suggest that for new people you don't "go-all-out" and kill yourself on your first even Year or so of Sanchin because you can hurt yourself. I did a Sanchin Kata while very angery once and really hurt myself. You can pull a muscle etc. if your aren't properly warmed up and you "throw" yourself into it- persay-

IMHO of coarse-

K-

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 3:25 am

Bill Glasheen wrote:Most of us have exposure to two classic versions - the Uechi version and Miyagi Chojun's Goju version. Most of the rest of the world knows sanchin by various spinoffs of Miyagi's sanchin, where he closed the hands and changed the kata to a dynamic tension exercise.

How do Uechi ryu practionhers view Goju’s version of Sanchin? Do you feel Uechi’s version is better or closer to the original ? Is it just a "dynamic tension exercise." I read on the net that the fist were closed by Miyagi to direct ki back into the body your thoughts on this view.

KerryM · Post by **KerryM** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 4:18 am

I think Sanchin started as a meditative stance in china with Pangia-noon/ Shaoin monks used it to stand and meditate- hands open- then I think it was converted into a "kata" I think by Shuzewah- subsequently becoming Uechi from S's teaching Kanbum... right?

Then a group taught by Kanbum split after his death- hence goju-ryu but Mr. Miagi was there with and taught by Kanbum- correct me if I'm wrong here- but that's how it started I think. But there are others here who know much more- without the "I think's" LOL

K

(I saw a map once that showed the "time-line" so to speak of teachers- this is where I got the info-)

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 4:07 pm

There are several things to consider here.

Uechi ryu's origin is from Kanbun Uechi's study in China, allegedly with a fellow by the name of Chou Tze Ho (Shushiwa). We think he learned three forms "as is" from Shushiwa, but we can't be entirely sure. If you read a copy of an old interview of Kanbun Uechi (recently published in Dragon Times), Kanbun Uechi states that he calls his system pangainoon, but thinks he will change that to Uechi Ryu. That could imply that Kanbun may have had a lot to do with the actual choreography of the kata. What Kanbun actually saw in China we will probably never know.

The origin of Goju Ryu is from Kanryo Higaonna's studies in China. We think Higaonna learned an open-handed version of sanchin. His Okinawan student - Chojun Miyagi - also took some trips to China I believe. It was Miyagi that closed the fists in sanchin, added dynamic tension to the movement, and added ibuki breathing in synchrony with these movements. Somewhere in the body of knowledge that these two men learned and modified was a kata called tensho. I believe it was Miyagi's intent to turn sanchin into a practice of the go (strength, hardness) and tensho as a complimentary study of the ju (fluidity, softness).

There are other styles with independent versions of "sanchin" (sometimes called by the same name but in a different dialect). Each is somewhat unique, but the essence of the shallow stances, thrusts, movement, and blocks can be seen.

So the evidence suggests that China in the 1800s had a number of different factions in many provinces doing something like sanchin. I'm pretty certain most - if not all - versions were open handed. Everyone was experimenting with an idea or set of ideas. The origin is unclear, but many like to think it originated in a Shaolin temple.

Having practiced both the Goju and Uechi versions, I can tell you that each has its unique contribution. These days I primarily do Uechi sanchin, but I take the dynamic tension with ibuki breathing and use that method to warm my students up at the beginning of a workout. It's a great way to get the blood flowing in muscles and tendons, and to physically warm the body up so you can do focused movements and stretch. I also personally do various (personally choreographed) dynamic tension movements with ibuki breathing as a warm-up on my upper body weight training days.

Asking which is better is like asking whether a saw or a hammer is better. Each is a tool that can be used by the practitioner to achieve a desired end. And with experience, one can actually (heaven forbid) modify and rechoreograph for one's own personal use.

- Bill

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 11:55 am

is there a video clip of the Uechi version on the net?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 2:55 pm

Well I'll be... We have a video for every form in the Uechi system BUT sanchin. Go figure....

Sanchin is such a basic and personal thing that I'd doubt any one example of it would satisfy everyone, unless of course it was a video of Uechi Kanei doing it.

Check on the video tapes for sale. George sells one of Master Uechi doing sanchin, seisan, and sanseiryu. It's an absolute must for every Uechi video library. No fluff, no theatrics, no ego. Just The Big Three TM Uechi kata - with only O'sensei's quirks - and nothing else.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 3:12 pm

You can get sanchin on the following videotape.

Uechi-ryu: The Complete System Overview

The one I'm thinking of with Kanei Uechi is on the VidMag video series. Perhaps George can stop by and let us know which tape in the series that it's on.

- Bill