Sanchin...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 3:26 pm

That Duane C guy has it on his site.

http://www.uechi-ryu-karate.com/video/video_clips.html

Great clips.

Brian Barry · Post by **Brian Barry** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 9:05 pm

You can actually find Sanchin on the video clips on this page. It isn't under the kata section, but if you go to "Uechi Techniques" and look at the 1993 All-Okinawan clip, Sanchin is a part of it.

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 4:31 am

How much does having a closed fist affect sanchin? I was told and have read that the closed fist was to redirect the ki back into the body(?) and or that the closed fist was due the Okinawan use of makiwara. How much of this is true? How many on this forum in a street fight use an open hand strike?

flavor flav · Post by **flavor flav** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 5:33 am

well, I don't know much, but I am positive that, used correctly, an open handed strike will be much more devastating than a closed handed one. I imagine one could kill animals attacking them with finely tuned open handed strikes, like a shark or an alligator. much less a street thug.

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 5:55 am

but how many karateka today really train themselves to the point that they could use this as a weapon and not break fingers?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:27 pm

how many karateka today really train themselves to the point that they could use this as a weapon and not break fingers

Pathetically few. It's a tragedy, as proper hand and finger conditioning (NOT abuse...) opens up a lot of doors in the style.

For the most part, most Uechika would be best to close their hands in fists or - better yet - just use palm heel strikes as all the streetfighting authors preach. If you don't develop it and use it, then you ain't got it.

Good hand and finger development isn't as hard as people think. It just takes time and dedication, just like any other aspect of a martial art.

- Bill

Josann · Post by **Josann** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 3:23 pm

I was taught (I am in the shohei ryu branch of uechi) that the sanchin is practiced with an open hand so that it can be noticed by observers or the practitioner as to whether on not the wrist is straight. If one can keep an open hand tight and focused at the end of the strike, then it would make the closed seiken must more destructive. A good sanchin should end suddenly with a focused open hand. When we practice sanchin we are also practicing the nukite as well as every other aspect of uechi ryu. I wonder whether or not anybody has seen any American or Okinawan seniors demonstrate breaking power with a completly extended. palm rotated down strike. I think that it would be capable by some, but i think that all of us can condition our hands to make a nukite a very practical strike to the ribs, neck or soft tissue targets on the body.

Josann

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 3:35 pm

Josann

Your Shohei teacher sounds well grounded.

The nukite in sanchin is an abstraction. We practice principles of hitting with "something" in sanchin. This includes keeping a strong and properly aligned wrist, strong fingers, and still keeping the flexor muscles in the arm and shoulder relaxed so as not to inhibit our striking speed. That's a tall order. Closing the hand into a fist is getting literal, and limiting the interpretation of what "it" can be. "It" can also be a shoken, a hiraken, a weapon held in the hand, or perhaps even the nukite.

all of us can condition our hands to make a nukite a very practical strike to the ribs, neck or soft tissue targets on the body.

In less than one minute, I could teach someone how to strike the suprasternal notch and trigger the gag reflex, thus allowing someone to be free of a hold or perhaps initiating an attack sequence. This is done with the classic pronated sanchin nukite (but it works best with both hands).

I'm not much of a fan of sanchin nukites to the ribs, but there again, the supinated nukites done in seisan are - in my mind - abstractions. They could be soko zukis (what a boxer does to your ribs when he gets you up against the ropes). They could be knife thrusts, thus practicing the art of creating a pneumothorax. Etc, etc.

- Bill

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:26 pm

Two notes:

First: The video that Bill mentions of Kanei Uechi performing Sanchin, Seisan, and Sanseiryu (and I believe also Seiryu and Konchin) is "Video Magazine 10: Master Kanei Uechi Performing Kata"
http://karateworld.safeshopper.com/10/18.htm?961

Second: I cannot remember if it is "Kungfu-Qigong" or "Inside Kungfu", but last night while I was browsing through the magazine stands the current issue of one of them has a brief article on Chinese Sanchin as practised by the Ngo Cho (Five Ancestors) style. I only glanced at it for now, but the article seems to focus more on the functional-practical aspects of the form from their perspective, and not so much on the step-by-step how to do the form (there are books available on how to do the Ngo Cho Sanchin if you're interested though). What actually first caught my attention about the article was that it was an article on a Chinese style in a Chinese-style magazine and yet they were using the Japanese term "Sanchin" rather than the Chinese term "Sam Chien".

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:24 pm

I'ts Inside Kung Fu. I just came back from the bookstore and nabbed the magazine. It's difficult to see if that article will be helpful for Uechika or Gojuka.

I'm not familiar with the Five Ancestors version of sanchin; the pictures look a bit odd. There is one posture very similar to the Uechi sanchin posture, but also other postures similar to the Uechi horse stance with closed fists. I'll have to dig up some research material on it.

The author is presenting some kind of universal theory about fighting based on his experience with sanchin. He starts with acknowledgement of Bruce Lee's "Classical mess" position, but then goes beyond that to show how his interpretation of the very generalized sanchin helps him pull things back together again. I read just enough of the article to think that the guy has some very interesting ideas, although I wasn't able to get them to gel in the short time I looked at the article.

We shall see...

- Bill

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:56 pm

It's been a few years since I've read it, but if I recall this book has some detail on Five Ancestors' Sanchin:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookse ... 153X&itm=1
I think it included quite a few pictures in a step-by-step type of fashion.

My main problem with the book was that it tried to claim that Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu originated from Five Ancestors Fist, and showed comparison pictures of vague similarities in vague techniques to back up their case. The publisher's comments on the link above also makes this claim. The author of that book, and some other Five Ancestors' practitioners, have continued that claim in a few magazine articles that I've seen. All three styles are clearly related, but it's doubtful that Goju and Uechi originated from Five Ancestors. For one thing according to the accepted history of Five Ancestors, its founder was training around the same time that Higashionna was training in China...not likely that Higashionna was training in Five Ancestors then. I think it far more likely that Five Ancestors, Goju, and Uechi simply had similar origins and influences.

Josann · Post by **Josann** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:34 am

There is a great site that has master Uechi performing the three main katas. The address is www.uechi.de/mpeg.htm

Interesting to see master Uechi's interpretations. Hope no one is offended if they are trying to sell tapes, but I think it's great that such valuable stuff is available for free.

Josann

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 7:09 pm

These are bootleg versions of a filming session that George Mattson and Charles Earle conducted in the sixties. Two 16 mm film copies were made - one for George and one for Charlie. George lent his copy of the film to several people, and at least one individual made a copy of it and started selling videos.

Oh well... Those are actually the films I was referring to.

- Bill