In football, they say that a great defense will beat a great offense.
In basketball, they say that a great defense sets up a great offense.
"Our defense is like a Cadillac," Jackson said. "On the outside, you see how shiny and nice it is. But you never look under the hood to see the sparkplugs and everything else that makes the car run, the stuff that does the gritty work.
"I'm one of the guys who makes the car run. I do the gritty work. But tonight, I'm a star."
Jackson had the MVP trophy to prove it.
- Richmond Times Dispatch
The Tampa Bay Bucs proved the old adage on Sunday.
Does this apply to martial arts? If so, exactly how? If not, then why?
Simply put, no. Football and basketball are games and score points... a good defense can bleed off the offences energy and, if you fail, only points are lost.
In a sense, warfare follows the same paradigm (or the games reflect a warfare paradigm)- it can be extremely expensive in terms of lives to overcome entrenched defenses, so defense can weaken the enemy to the point that the defender can sally and win.
Personal combat is different in that it is binary, not scalar. In a battle, a general can say that he lost 5% or 10% of his forces and can still continue. The individual soldier is either dead or alive (crippled, incapacitated). There can be no attrition of one.
In any combat, you can only win on the attack. In personal combat, each defence allows an attack. The opponent strikes, you block. Assuming that you are of equal speed and a block takes as much time as a strike, each time you block you give the opponent enough time for another strike. With the opponent only striking and you only blocking, you must eventually lose.
Some styles and instructors insist on blocking to create openings. They are counting on outclassing the opposition in either skill or speed.
The defense must be active - no passive actions. I don't think any art really advocates the use of any passive movement. Even the classic Shotokan 'blocks' which are not termed 'block' but 'receive' - when used correctly should blast the attacker pressing into him, crushing the attacking weapon, closing off his facing and unbalancing him - not passive.
Some are not aware of the energy issuing aspect of what may be seen as passive movements. However when you apply penetrating forward energy to something 'passive' it can suddenly take on new properties.
This is the gateway to balance control via the destruction of the opponent's structure. When his attack is crushed and receiving energy pressing into him he will need to reset - as he does so BLAST HIM - BLAST HIM - BLAST HIM - recovery is difficult.
There are other ways to counter but it is true that the attacker must - expose himself - commit himself to some extent. The 'defender' if he is good with distance and can maintain clarity can work to fit in with the inital move of the opponent and intercept him. Sometimes a counter looks like an initial attack, like attack on the preporation as in JKD, etc., subtle counters to slight changes in distance and position as the attacker sets up, etc. If done right it can totally demoralize the opponent who fees as if he can't even begin the attack properly - and as he considers his next move - you intercept his hesitation.
The defense must be active - no passive actions. I don't think any art really advocates the use of any passive movement. Even the classic Shotokan 'blocks' which are not termed 'block' but 'receive' - when used correctly should blast the attacker pressing into him, crushing the attacking weapon, closing off his facing and unbalancing him - not passive.
totally agree the best offence is a good defence which is a good offence
Defense in football is an attacking defense. Sack the quarterback!!!
Effective defense in basketball means playing aggressive man-to-man and/or cutting off all the passing lanes. The goal is to steal the ball and charge to the other basket.
Definitely a different mindset from a "passive" defense.
Hmmmm, I don't think anyone has ever implied I have a passive defense mindset before. But if all of you read that....
Bill, good point about the attacking defence, but my point still stands- until you are on the offense, whether getting the ball back or striking, you cannot win. Only the person with the ball and only the person doing the damage can win.
Same with "blocks are strikes"- the person targetting the vital points has a huge advantage over the one targetting the attacking limb for the same reason that someone with a knife does- he can finish the encounter quickly.
A lot of the defensive-offensive balance is an artifact of sparring. Rhythm and flow are very important to dueling and sparring, but they are suicidal concepts in surviving a serious assault. It takes a minimum of three beats to establish a very simple rhythm. That is three opportunities for the opponent to kill you in order for you to adapt a more efficient defense.
As an experiment, the next time you spar with stiff or hard contact ignore all incoming attacks. Don't make any attempt to get in first or take control of the fight...but whenever your opponent attacks, fire a linear punch right at his face. You'll see that the vast majority of people will abort a good clean shot to protect their face, and they will lose.
I'm with you, Rory. First strike has its advantages.
But from a practical standpoint... In the real world of living our lives or enforcing the law... Can we exercise first strike? More than once? If not, then what?
My whole mindset is attack, attack, attack. It's the script/theme running through my head when I'm in a tournament, sparring for testing purposes, grappling, etc.
However, it does provide openings for skilled opponents. I got clocked at the last black belt test over an over-extended left jab (I was covering ground by leaning in - bad habit related to having a short reach). If you watch the tape from the two fights, you'll see me initiating every exchange. Same in grappling (attack, attack, attack theme) but I like to make my opponent commit to a take-down and counter it (passive attack). And my mindset doesn't change until you reach that "oh crap" moment when you realize that your aggressiveness has created an opening for your opponent to counter.
The question then becomes how can you get the momentum back? My strategy is to regroup and return to the attack, attack, attack mode. However now that I'm getting older, I realize the wisdom conveyed in the joke regarding the old bull and the young bull.......
whenever your opponent attacks, fire a linear punch right at his face. You'll see that the vast majority of people will abort a good clean shot to protect their face, and they will lose
Defense, no? There is no first attack here. This is equivalent to Bruce Smith waiting on the defensive line for the center to hike the ball so he can maul the quarterback. There's a penalty in football - and in life - for being off sides.
Best offense is a good defense??
In football, they say that a great defense will beat a great offense.
In basketball, they say that a great defense sets up a great offense.
Does this apply to martial arts? If so, exactly how? If not, then why?
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Interesting thread Bill and some great responses!
I subscribe to the old adage that if you get in a fight you will be hit. Play with knives you will get cut. So if your defense ***** you get hit/cut more and end up losing or maybe dying. So what is a good defense. I suggest that a great defense is offence. We know that action is faster than reaction so why play catch up.
In any combat, you can only win on the attack. In personal combat, each defense allows an attack. The opponent strikes, you block. Assuming that you are of equal speed and a block takes as much time as a strike, each time you block you give the opponent enough time for another strike. With the opponent only striking and you only blocking, you must eventually lose.
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Great posts Rory, I agree.
Totally agree the best offence is a good defense which is a good offence
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Strikes nailed it the lines blur, like that great game chess each movement has dual or multiple purpose.
Defense in football is an attacking defense. Sack the quarterback!!!
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Or jam the strike before power is developed
Effective defense in basketball means playing aggressive man-to-man and/or cutting off all the passing lanes. The goal is to steal the ball and charge to the other basket. \
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Yes stick to the man sense his movement and take over on offence. (Sounds like wing chung)
Same with "blocks are strikes"- the person targeting the vital points has a huge advantage over the one targeting the attacking limb for the same reason that someone with a knife does- he can finish the encounter quickly.
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I agree if your focused on incoming your still letting the EBG feed on you. Your still playing catch up, you've to go to offence when contact is made you have to go head neck, centerline.
I'm with you, Rory. First strike has its advantages.
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Pre- strike is the most effective defense.
But from a practical standpoint... In the real world of living our lives or enforcing the law... Can we exercise first strike? More than once? If not, then what?
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We now explore the moral social impact and reality of you may be labeled the EBG for getting off first. A valid concern we have addressed may times. How do you stay out of jail after? There may be witnesses influence them.PLANT SOME SEEDS.
Before you go, yell doesn't threaten me with violence, and close. Everyone remembers that, the even ember the other guy's hands coming up before you fought back. If police arrive after, you are the victim and you must establish your self as one. He was trying to kill me,He tried to put his hands on me, I've never been in a fight before, I'm all f'd up take me to the hospital please. He was trying to kill me ,Yadda yadda yadda.
I like a good offense
My whole mindset is attack, attack, attack
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Bingo! But with out good defensive skills the EBG or your sparring partner will turn the tables on you and go one the offensive. For those who do not spar or engage in contact one of the real benefits of this activity is it teaches you to deliver strikes while still working out of a good defensive position. You learn to strike without offering opportunities to your opponent..
whenever your opponent attacks, fire a linear punch right at his face. You'll see that the vast majority of people will abort a good clean shot to protect their face, and they will lose
Defense, no? There is no first attack here
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yes, a counter punch
There's a penalty in football - and in life - for being off sides.
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Very true Bill! We become more skilled at detecting the attack as time goes by. Some people are very skilled at this, and can read the attack almost before the person attacking. The witnesses may see the step dip of the shoulder, clenching of the fist. They just see you hitting the guy first. Now you’re the EBG.
Attacking defense??
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The key in my look at it. Nothing is just a block. You meet the attack and jam it as you strike.
Story: we were arm conditioning the other night deflecting random punches to the chest with a chudan block. We take turns one throws the other blocks. Gets faster and faster, great workout for the forearms.
Well when it was my turn to block my partner stopped after a while and asked what I was doing. I was not waiting for his punch to get there, I was meeting it. Why move 5 inches to deflect when you only need to deflect a half an inch or so if you meet it sooner? I was also jamming the power in his punches. I was also sliding over top of his punches and leaving a shoken chambered at his throat after each punch. Great arm conditioning and an example of two different mindsets.
I mind set locked in block, and one mindset that only attacks, an attacking block if you will. This is the defense I strive to develop; it's timing and mind set. This is similar to the rising wedge blocks in Seisan only the arm slides over top of the incoming.
Funny in karate we block, eventually start finding a few more advanced applications, we eventually break the white belt mold and learn some great countering moves. In boxing they teach you to step around in coming shots and counter over top on the first day. I prefer the defensive method of the boxer ,strike.
uglyelk wrote:Well when it was my turn to block my partner stopped after a while and asked what I was doing. I was not waiting for his punch to get there, I was meeting it. Why move 5 inches to deflect when you only need to deflect a half an inch or so if you meet it sooner?
That's the essence of WC.
What is a chudan block? Could you describe or post a pic?
In WC the 'block' is always on the line. If I may suggest: Try keeping it (the 'block') on the line but instead of moving the arm from side to side move it into the attacker's center: In other words from your center to his. Just as the tool meets the incoming shoot it into the line - forward into the line and step in.
WC movements often occupy the path of the incoming weapon and press into it. A side to side block relys on exact timing - off just a little either early or late and the parry will miss. One the other hand if the parry is always on the line and uses forward energy instead of sideways energy the timing becomes much less exacting.
In WC the 'block' is always on the line. If I may suggest: Try keeping it (the 'block') on the line but instead of moving the arm from side to side move it into the attacker's center: In other words from your center to his. Just as the tool meets the incoming shoot it into the line - forward into the line and step in.
Thanks Jim this is golden , had a little light bulb go off , always attack center but blocking i usually circle , this makes a lot of sense another option to play with
Stryke wrote:
Thanks Jim this is golden , had a little light bulb go off , always attack center but blocking i usually circle , this makes a lot of sense another option to play with
Anytime.
There's a lot to play with there. By using forward energy to meet the attack you introduce a new dynamic into the equation. (use elbow position to help control space) The forwardness causes something called 'energy issuing' via bridging to happen. This energy, aimed at the center of the opponent can affect the opponent's balance and structure in several different ways.
When the tools meet and you shoot forward energy into his attack his tool may collapse or retract either way this has created a 'hole' in the defense which you can use to attack through but you must be on the line.
Hint: You can continue the attack by pressing, pulling, jerking down (slightly), with either hand, meaning the lead hand or rear, try to flow with his energy, clear, stick and hit - e.g. if he is soft - press him - if he is hard - pull him - if he is stiff go around it but maintain contact with one hand - make a small circle and hit back to the line and maintain a strong base.
For an example of this see Enter The Dragon first 3 exchanges from bridge (crossed hands) when Bruce fights O'Hara. He's using Jut Da (jerking hand - with rear hand) on the first 2 exchanges.
What is a chudan block? Could you describe or post a pic?
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Sorry Jim Can't do the photo, clip thing.
Chudan block is a generic middle block. This started as an arm conditioning drill and we were stiking incoming straight punches with a Kyokushin cross body forearm block. Good arm to arm contact. And yes it did evolve into this uechi /wc
forward energy thing.No longer going side to side , I was meeting the punch by pushing/ punching forward. Some punches were jammed up, some delevoped but were deflected by the punching block. (intercepting counter)
In WC the 'block' is always on the line. If I may suggest: Try keeping it (the 'block') on the line but instead of moving the arm from side to side move it into the attacker's center: In other words from your center to his. Just as the tool meets the incoming shoot it into the line - forward into the line and step in.
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I hear you and agree Jim. I have played with this sparring a bit. In the drill I started jamming the punches before they developed and could have landed over top of the arm. Boxers call this slidding. (Like a right hand over a jab)
When I have played with this in sparring I find little difference between block and strike as the motion is the same.I find I start jamming straight punches close to the oponents chest. One after another. I begin to chain punches together jamming and striking. This does not have full power but does create huge opennings for a kill shot. Every move is a closing step, your in their face crowding during this.
The chaining punches are fast and furious. This attack and technique really messes up my training partner. He ends up turning turtle.
I'm not sure but I suspect this is very close to what your folks call bricking up the middle? It's kind of neat!
Any way since you've joined forums I've learned a little bit of WC concepts and believe that it is a very compatable style to Uechi. If I ever have the oppourtunity to explore the style I will take advantage. In the mean time what would you recommend as far as reading for some one who's interested in WC concepts.
