Newton
Man I hate sloppy thinking--NOT TO SUGGEST THAT YOUR POSTS ARE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM SLOPPY THINKING.
JUST A GENERAL STAEMENT OF MY FEELINGS ABOUT THOUGHT AND ITS EXPRESSION.
But consider this--you have twice now mentioned that actions have re-actions.
You have hinted that the wests actions have somehow been responsable for the re-actions of Muslum radicals.
Have you considered that THIER actions may well be provoking OUR re-actions??
That beheading innocent people because of the color of their skin, their nationality, their ethnicity, their relgion just might provoke violent reaction??
That flying planes in blgds full of innocent people might just provoke a re-action?
See that little physics lesson you choose to use as a philosophical statement cuts BOTH ways.
If your going use the use whole "newtons law" thing then you are going to have to deal with a GIGANTIC can of worms about what 1st action produced what 1st re-action??
Good luck on that.
It WON'T go away
Moderator: Available
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Jesse Taub
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:05 pm
- Location: Boston, MA
i'm willing to bet that western imperialism was the first action.
but that's not my point at all. I think it's silly to argue over "who started it" because who started it is not the issue, and whoever started it is dead now anyway. the issue is how is each side reacting?
cxt:
Radical muslims have reacted to whatever offenses they cite shamefully and dishonorably. To say that we are justified in reacting to their dishonor with similar dishonor, to say that, like physics, violent reactions go both ways, is to stoop to the level of the radicals, and we should expect better of America. While it might feel good to take an eye for an eye, as soon as you start torturing or killing captives, you lose the right to be outraged when the other side does the same, regardless of who started it.
yes, cxt, when wanton violence is committed against our civilians, an equally violent response is to be expected, but in doing so, in sacrificing our self-control, we stoop to their level.
Saying "well they did it first and therefore we are justified" is ridiculous, because they will tell you the same story, and it becomes a cycle, which it certainly will if we do react without self-control.
If we ever want terrorism and the killing of civilians to end, we cant afford to give them reasons to be outraged.
dont get me wrong, it's just as much of a double standard on their part to say "you humiliated abu grahib (sp) prisoners" and then go decapitating people. I only wish they understood the futility of their own viscious retributions. But they are over there saying the EXACT things we are. "We need to give them a taste of their own medicine".
My point is, claiming that we didnt start it is useless. the visciousness is a cycle; someone needs to break it. Frankly I doubt that Islamic radicals will ever have the will, foresight, reason, or maturity required to break the cycle.
However, i do expect this of the American people.
but that's not my point at all. I think it's silly to argue over "who started it" because who started it is not the issue, and whoever started it is dead now anyway. the issue is how is each side reacting?
cxt:
Radical muslims have reacted to whatever offenses they cite shamefully and dishonorably. To say that we are justified in reacting to their dishonor with similar dishonor, to say that, like physics, violent reactions go both ways, is to stoop to the level of the radicals, and we should expect better of America. While it might feel good to take an eye for an eye, as soon as you start torturing or killing captives, you lose the right to be outraged when the other side does the same, regardless of who started it.
yes, cxt, when wanton violence is committed against our civilians, an equally violent response is to be expected, but in doing so, in sacrificing our self-control, we stoop to their level.
Saying "well they did it first and therefore we are justified" is ridiculous, because they will tell you the same story, and it becomes a cycle, which it certainly will if we do react without self-control.
If we ever want terrorism and the killing of civilians to end, we cant afford to give them reasons to be outraged.
dont get me wrong, it's just as much of a double standard on their part to say "you humiliated abu grahib (sp) prisoners" and then go decapitating people. I only wish they understood the futility of their own viscious retributions. But they are over there saying the EXACT things we are. "We need to give them a taste of their own medicine".
My point is, claiming that we didnt start it is useless. the visciousness is a cycle; someone needs to break it. Frankly I doubt that Islamic radicals will ever have the will, foresight, reason, or maturity required to break the cycle.
However, i do expect this of the American people.
Listen to: "Red Clay," Freddie Hubbard
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Jesse, I agree with your proposition. There are countless situations in history where generations have continued a cycle of violence.
However let's once again examine the facts.
Take some time to study up on the motives of Osama Bin Laden - considered the spiritual founder of al Qaeda. Granted, finding logic in his ramblings is difficult. The hypocrisy (Does Islam allow all those wives?? All that wanton killing of civilians??) is a bit much as well. But in any case, this black sheep of the Bin Laden family was angered about Israel and about Westerners in Saudi Arabia.
How did all those Western troops get there? Oh yea, it was Saddam marching into Kuwait, and being days away from advancing to Riyadh. Good thing the Saudis have that fierce military to defend themselves.
How did all those Western workers get there? Oh yea, it was the Saudis themselves who invited them in, because they don't (or won't) operate their own oil industry and clean their own homes and run their own hospitals and..., and... Just spend a little of that oil money, and foreigners will come in and do it for you. Give the population a free education and free health care, and they'll keep civil.
Hmm...
And as for the Jews, well... I'm sure we all could get into some racial diatribes in short order (be it against Jew or Muslim) if we get started. Let's not go there.
If you want to get into prisons and prisoners, well I do recall we have a process whereby both military and civilians connected with Abu Ghraib and other atrocities are now facing prosecution. One trial is already over with the party pleading guilty. This is the America I am proud of.
In the fog of war, man's inhumanity to man rears its ugly head. Atrocity begats atrocity. It knows precedent in history. Why did we firebomb civilian cities in Germany? Why did we take out Hiroshima and Nagasaki? An attorney I talked to in the gym yesterday had a theory. I guess you might call it (my thought...) the Apocalypse Now theory. Basically he believes that the only way to defeat a vicious enemy is to be as vicious as that enemy. Bin Laden was convinced we didn't have it in us. He was counting on it to succeed in his quest to re-create the next Ottoman Empire in his own likeness.
I don't know what to think about this, Jesse. I do know that the Allies defeated the Nazis and Imperial Japan. I do know that both countries are better for it.
I have no idea how the cards will play out in the Middle East - in the short run. I have no idea how history will judge this fallible nation.
I do know two things. First, appeasement to evil is out of the question. Second, time is on our side. After the oil is gone, many in the Middle East will have nothing but sand to fight over. It's a shame... That oil money could buy a good future if they wanted one.
It would be nice for things to be civil. It would be nice for people to get along. I'm not holding my breath though.
- Bill
However let's once again examine the facts.
I don't see anything there about Abu Ghraib prison. I do however see something about wanting convicted criminals released from jail. And another news report indicates they also asked for Westerners to be out of Saudi Arabia.Johnson, who worked for Lockheed Martin in Saudi Arabia, was seized June 12 by a group calling itself Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. The organization is believed to be headed by Al Qaeda's chief in the kingdom, Abdullah-aziz al-Moqrin. On June 15, Johnson's kidnapers issued a 72-hour ultimatum threatening to kill the hostage unless Saudi Arabia frees Al Qaeda militants. Three days later, on June 18, Johnson was beheaded, Saudi-owned Al-Arabiya reported.
Take some time to study up on the motives of Osama Bin Laden - considered the spiritual founder of al Qaeda. Granted, finding logic in his ramblings is difficult. The hypocrisy (Does Islam allow all those wives?? All that wanton killing of civilians??) is a bit much as well. But in any case, this black sheep of the Bin Laden family was angered about Israel and about Westerners in Saudi Arabia.
How did all those Western troops get there? Oh yea, it was Saddam marching into Kuwait, and being days away from advancing to Riyadh. Good thing the Saudis have that fierce military to defend themselves.
How did all those Western workers get there? Oh yea, it was the Saudis themselves who invited them in, because they don't (or won't) operate their own oil industry and clean their own homes and run their own hospitals and..., and... Just spend a little of that oil money, and foreigners will come in and do it for you. Give the population a free education and free health care, and they'll keep civil.
Hmm...
And as for the Jews, well... I'm sure we all could get into some racial diatribes in short order (be it against Jew or Muslim) if we get started. Let's not go there.
If you want to get into prisons and prisoners, well I do recall we have a process whereby both military and civilians connected with Abu Ghraib and other atrocities are now facing prosecution. One trial is already over with the party pleading guilty. This is the America I am proud of.
In the fog of war, man's inhumanity to man rears its ugly head. Atrocity begats atrocity. It knows precedent in history. Why did we firebomb civilian cities in Germany? Why did we take out Hiroshima and Nagasaki? An attorney I talked to in the gym yesterday had a theory. I guess you might call it (my thought...) the Apocalypse Now theory. Basically he believes that the only way to defeat a vicious enemy is to be as vicious as that enemy. Bin Laden was convinced we didn't have it in us. He was counting on it to succeed in his quest to re-create the next Ottoman Empire in his own likeness.
I don't know what to think about this, Jesse. I do know that the Allies defeated the Nazis and Imperial Japan. I do know that both countries are better for it.
I have no idea how the cards will play out in the Middle East - in the short run. I have no idea how history will judge this fallible nation.
I do know two things. First, appeasement to evil is out of the question. Second, time is on our side. After the oil is gone, many in the Middle East will have nothing but sand to fight over. It's a shame... That oil money could buy a good future if they wanted one.
It would be nice for things to be civil. It would be nice for people to get along. I'm not holding my breath though.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
And of course by now we know this...
The house still has a roach problem, but damn that sure feels better.
Sorry, my emotions are showing.
- Bill
P.S. Thanks, Laird. (belatedly)
Four cockroaches dead.CAIRO (AP) — The al-Qaeda cell in Saudi Arabia confirmed Sunday that its leader, Abdulaziz al-Moqrin, and three other militants were killed in a shootout with Saudi forces in Riyadh the night before.
Al-Moqrin
Ya think?On Saturday, Saudi TV broadcast pictures of four bloodied bodies it said were al-Moqrin and the three others slain, apparently to refute earlier denials by Islamic militants that al-Moqrin was dead.
An earlier posting on an Islamist Web site Saturday said claims of al-Moqrin's death were "aimed at dissuading the holy warriors and crushing their spirits."
The house still has a roach problem, but damn that sure feels better.
Sorry, my emotions are showing.
- Bill
P.S. Thanks, Laird. (belatedly)
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Stryke
Ive seen evil in my life but not by looking , consider this the last post on your forum .Last time I wrote about the Berg video, the response from some was venemous. How could I? Anyone who wanted to know more and who sought to understand the phenomenon by witnessing first hand was sick. Sick!
To some extent, I understand. Yes, there is much sickness here. This is the work of sociopaths. And the civil among us will be angered. The civil among us can't fathom this type of evil, and don't really want to be reminded of it.
However, I will not be quiet. I only seek to be understood
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Jesse Taub
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:05 pm
- Location: Boston, MA
Bill, you are absolutely right. I cant argue with what you say, but my point was not that we have wronged al queda, nor that abu grahib was responsible for Johnson's death.
My point was in response to those who suggested using their tactics against them.
like i said, i wont make any statement on who started what or what caused what.
my only point is that if we do as some folks have suggested and use their own tactics against them, we will feed their anger and lose the right to be outraged.
i never said we were in the wrong for protecting kuwait, etc. i have nothing to say of the causes of the present situation.
i dispute your WWII analogy but frankly i'm too tired to write out an understandable response, so i'll let you win that one.
My point was in response to those who suggested using their tactics against them.
like i said, i wont make any statement on who started what or what caused what.
my only point is that if we do as some folks have suggested and use their own tactics against them, we will feed their anger and lose the right to be outraged.
i never said we were in the wrong for protecting kuwait, etc. i have nothing to say of the causes of the present situation.
i dispute your WWII analogy but frankly i'm too tired to write out an understandable response, so i'll let you win that one.
Listen to: "Red Clay," Freddie Hubbard
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I understand where you are coming from, Jesse. What I hear you saying is we must live what we expect of others. Before we condemn, we must be sure we occupy the moral high ground.
The acts of Abu Ghraib are sad, to be sure - even if the reality has been exaggerated and used as a political football. A small few have stained the good acts of many. It just might be difficult convincing the average Arab that they're getting a better deal when Arab media has seized this issue and broadcast it to their world at the exclusion of all good that is being done. I know there are a good number of the overwhelmingly majority of moral servicemen who are ticked. It will take time and the clarity of 20/20 hindsight to get the big picture back in focus.
But what sets us apart in the end may not be human nature. Our people are no different than those in any other nation. What sets us apart is that we are a nation of laws, and there will be consequences for illegal actions. It will take time, and it will not be pretty. But many wrongs will be righted.
Meanwhile... No point acting like deer in the headlamps when evil rears its ugly head. In the face of a typically nasty national election and competing agendas in the Middle East, we must move on. The struggle to make things right is far from over. We are in danger of trading Saddam for something much, much worse. There is never a good time to cower before thugs and psychopaths.
- Bill
The acts of Abu Ghraib are sad, to be sure - even if the reality has been exaggerated and used as a political football. A small few have stained the good acts of many. It just might be difficult convincing the average Arab that they're getting a better deal when Arab media has seized this issue and broadcast it to their world at the exclusion of all good that is being done. I know there are a good number of the overwhelmingly majority of moral servicemen who are ticked. It will take time and the clarity of 20/20 hindsight to get the big picture back in focus.
But what sets us apart in the end may not be human nature. Our people are no different than those in any other nation. What sets us apart is that we are a nation of laws, and there will be consequences for illegal actions. It will take time, and it will not be pretty. But many wrongs will be righted.
Meanwhile... No point acting like deer in the headlamps when evil rears its ugly head. In the face of a typically nasty national election and competing agendas in the Middle East, we must move on. The struggle to make things right is far from over. We are in danger of trading Saddam for something much, much worse. There is never a good time to cower before thugs and psychopaths.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Stryke
That's not very sporting of you.
I try hard to understand your point of view, even if you believe I don't. Do you do the same for mine?
* Do you live here?
* Is your nation at war and in conflict with itself?
* Do you travel frequently with "I am an American male" written all over you?
* Do you worry what your two sons may face in the next generation?
* Have you been trained for combat and/or understand what methods people are using TODAY to train soldiers for incomprehensible evil? This is, after all, a martial arts forum.
* Have you considered what forensics training is like? Medicine, BTW, happens to be my family background, and it is one of many topics of interest on this forum.
* Are the deep, dark depths of the psychological components to fighting, killing, death, and dieing off-topic for a martial forum?
I am very sorry for your hard feelings. Meanwhile, the door is always open. Difficult subjects should not be a reason for difficult relationships.
My best to you and your friends.
- Bill
That's not very sporting of you.
I try hard to understand your point of view, even if you believe I don't. Do you do the same for mine?
* Do you live here?
* Is your nation at war and in conflict with itself?
* Do you travel frequently with "I am an American male" written all over you?
* Do you worry what your two sons may face in the next generation?
* Have you been trained for combat and/or understand what methods people are using TODAY to train soldiers for incomprehensible evil? This is, after all, a martial arts forum.
* Have you considered what forensics training is like? Medicine, BTW, happens to be my family background, and it is one of many topics of interest on this forum.
* Are the deep, dark depths of the psychological components to fighting, killing, death, and dieing off-topic for a martial forum?
I am very sorry for your hard feelings. Meanwhile, the door is always open. Difficult subjects should not be a reason for difficult relationships.
My best to you and your friends.
- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Jesse Taub
" I'm willing to bet that western imperilism was the first action.""
Sorry Jesse thats a bet you just lost.
Part of the problem with Newtons "actions-re-actions" is that he overlooks history.
Looking at history Islam seems to have struck first here.
With Isalmic invaders attacking France and most of Eastern Europe long before the Crusades of the Middle Ages.
Islamic invaders conq Spain--and ruling it for several hundard years--before being osted by the Spanish after a war that lasted for many generations.
(and one of Osama Ben Ladins dearest wishs is---and I quote--"To avenge the tragady of Andalusia" ie. ousting the Muslums inavders from Spain)
Islamic invaders taking chunk after chunk out of Byzantium--and the Christian nation of which it was the capitiol.
Eventually destrying the nation and coverting what once was one of the worlds largest and most impressive Christians churchs--into a Muslum Mosque.
So no, "western imperilism" was no-where near the "first cause" here.
Also please rememeber that the base reason for the Crusades to begin with was Muslums preventing Christians accesss to Jersulam.
A site as holy for Christians as Meeca is for Muslums.
History lesson over.
Jesse you are dead on correct in that someone has to stop the cycle.
Thats EXACTLY why getting into "first causes" and "action--re-action" is such a fools game.
Go far enough back in time and pretty much EVERYONE can find a "first cause" to pin blame on--and use to justify a "re-action."
Your absolutly correct--we need to find some way out of the spiral.
Just don't have much faith that we are going to have the luxury--I fear at this point we are either going to have to kill or be killed.
I serioulsy doubt that Al Queda is going to leave us alone and allow us to just live our lives.
" I'm willing to bet that western imperilism was the first action.""
Sorry Jesse thats a bet you just lost.
Part of the problem with Newtons "actions-re-actions" is that he overlooks history.
Looking at history Islam seems to have struck first here.
With Isalmic invaders attacking France and most of Eastern Europe long before the Crusades of the Middle Ages.
Islamic invaders conq Spain--and ruling it for several hundard years--before being osted by the Spanish after a war that lasted for many generations.
(and one of Osama Ben Ladins dearest wishs is---and I quote--"To avenge the tragady of Andalusia" ie. ousting the Muslums inavders from Spain)
Islamic invaders taking chunk after chunk out of Byzantium--and the Christian nation of which it was the capitiol.
Eventually destrying the nation and coverting what once was one of the worlds largest and most impressive Christians churchs--into a Muslum Mosque.
So no, "western imperilism" was no-where near the "first cause" here.
Also please rememeber that the base reason for the Crusades to begin with was Muslums preventing Christians accesss to Jersulam.
A site as holy for Christians as Meeca is for Muslums.
History lesson over.
Jesse you are dead on correct in that someone has to stop the cycle.
Thats EXACTLY why getting into "first causes" and "action--re-action" is such a fools game.
Go far enough back in time and pretty much EVERYONE can find a "first cause" to pin blame on--and use to justify a "re-action."
Your absolutly correct--we need to find some way out of the spiral.
Just don't have much faith that we are going to have the luxury--I fear at this point we are either going to have to kill or be killed.
I serioulsy doubt that Al Queda is going to leave us alone and allow us to just live our lives.
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Jesse Taub
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:05 pm
- Location: Boston, MA
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Guest
Rich posted this advice on another thread. I think it’s great advice and I’m going to exercise it on a few forums!RACastanet wrote: Finally, do not edit out anything to appease anyone. This is your forum. If anyone does not like it here they are under no obligation to stay around.
I’m out of this forum and a few others as well….When people constantly insult you imply things and will not respond when called on it…. Fuk em who needs to associate with them. I’ll visit places were people are respectful and discuss Martial arts.Guess that narrows things
Lack of respect for real world experience duly noted
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
South Korean hostage killed by his captors in Iraq
Keep it up, boys. Lots of world sympathy for your cause, I'm sure!
Where is the outrage? Who will speak out? Who will remain silent?
- Bill
Wonderful. Apparently Al Qaeda is not satisfied with brutalizing American civilians.BAGHDAD (AP) — An Iraqi militant group beheaded its South Korean hostage, officials said Tuesday
Keep it up, boys. Lots of world sympathy for your cause, I'm sure!
Where is the outrage? Who will speak out? Who will remain silent?
- Bill
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RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
The S Koreans are tough people. Instead of pulling out their 900 or so troops they will be sending in 1500 or more! South Korean Marines have a really nasty reputation (in Vietnam the VC reportedly stayed clear of them them, preferring to take on Americans). I would not be surprised if they decided to right this wrong all by themselves. And if they do, it will not be pretty.
Rich
Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Let's see now...
One slow, methodical beheading of an Amercian civilian is a fluke. Just a "fortune seeker" who should have known better. How dare he need a job! Too bad for the family.
Damn, a second infidel fortune seeker loses his head over his job. No bother, it wasn't al-Zarqawi.
Oh well, pissed off a few South Koreans. No bother - this #### was an evangelical Christian. Too bad al Qaeda didn't get any mileage out of that head...
Reminds me of a scene in Patches, where Robin Williams is joking during a group therapy session. There's a catatonic man in the room with one arm pointed up and face glazed over.
"Which direction is the sky?" Patches asks.
But I'm not holding my breath here.
Let's see now...carving the heads off of two civilian Americans, a civilian South Korean, and now 3 civilian Turks ready for the stage. The blade is being sharpened. Quick, honey, get the kids!
- Bill
One slow, methodical beheading of an Amercian civilian is a fluke. Just a "fortune seeker" who should have known better. How dare he need a job! Too bad for the family.
Damn, a second infidel fortune seeker loses his head over his job. No bother, it wasn't al-Zarqawi.
Oh well, pissed off a few South Koreans. No bother - this #### was an evangelical Christian. Too bad al Qaeda didn't get any mileage out of that head...
Wow, maybe they'll be the merciful freedom fighters we all know al-Zarqawi and his merry men to be (we'll forget about all those car bombings...). I suppose they might be able to find a few Turks protesting Bush's visit (too late - already protesting, boys) and declare victory, no?BAGHDAD (AP) — Militants loyal to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi said Saturday they have kidnapped three Turkish workers and threatened to behead them in 72 hours
************
The kidnappers demanded the Turks hold demonstrations protesting the visit by the "criminal" Bush and that Turkish companies stop working in Iraq, or else the hostages would be killed.
Reminds me of a scene in Patches, where Robin Williams is joking during a group therapy session. There's a catatonic man in the room with one arm pointed up and face glazed over.
"Which direction is the sky?" Patches asks.
But I'm not holding my breath here.
Let's see now...carving the heads off of two civilian Americans, a civilian South Korean, and now 3 civilian Turks ready for the stage. The blade is being sharpened. Quick, honey, get the kids!
- Bill
