Taste of the forbidden fruit?

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Bill Glasheen
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Taste of the forbidden fruit?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

I'm a pragmatist at heart. I'm not terribly wild about my wife's excursions to the "health food" store, where she pays 3 times as much for a roll of recycled toilet paper. What-ever...

Organic? Could mean someone used human dung to fertilize it. Could mean there is salmonella bacteria on board. Could mean that you could get amoebic dissentary from those open containers of stuff (which happened to one of my karate students).

Nothing wrong to me with the judicious use of chemical fertilizers, and an occasional insecticide if it means nobody's bringing the darned vermin in the house (which has happened...).

And to me, a vitamin is a vitamin as long as an independent assay shows the ingredient to be identical and active.

And I'd rather have a stadardized extract of something than the raw herb. "It's really good s***" doesn't cut it for me... 8)

Recently I got into a discussion with jorvik (I believe) about genetically modified (GM) food. Americans are way ahead on the genetic engineering thing, and Europeans are adamant about GM products not getting into the food supply. Never know when the next legless or armless mutant is going to pop up...or we're attacked by killer tomatoes. 8O Is it a legitimate concern, or veiled trade protectionism? Who knows?

So what's the solution? It appears a Sweedish brewer may have found a way to crack this iron bread basket. To me, genetically modifying corn so you don't need to saturate it with insecticide sounds like a great idea. To some, well...it's the plot of a future creature feature. But...what happens if we put the stuff in beer, and unabashedly ADVERTISE that it has the "forbidden" substance?

Got to hand it to the guy.

Image

Europeans don't quaff, but scoff at bioengineered beer

And me? I welcome the day that GM food means my boys' sperm count isn't dropping from excessive consumption of residual insecticides and herbicides. Come to think of it, maybe that's what's wrong with the French...

- Bill
pshaw
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Humming Joni Mitchell

Post by pshaw »

You are lucky to have a wife who cares enough about you, herself and your children to try and provide you with the very best. But you should stick to your strong suit and knowledge of basic agricultural and horticultural practices is lacking. The effects on the environment from herbicides,
pesticides and chemical fertilizers is pretty well known. Genetic modifications have already thrown many curves that Monsanto is running around like a Chinese fire drill trying to fix. If countries don't want to contaminate their indigenous species with our genetically modified seeds
why should they have them shoved down their throats for our economic gains?

But let's not even go there. Let's review this from a position that everyone can appreciate. Taste.

Pal, you need to push yourself away from that computer, climb down from your American pedestal and go savor yourself some life experience. Take a stroll through a French market and appreciate the smells of their fresh fruits and vegetables that actually taste like fresh fruits and
vegetables. Totter on over to Italy and relish lemons that taste like lemons. Or saunter over to Greece where tomatoes taste like tomatoes, cucumbers like cucumbers and well you get my point. You can taste the difference. It is amazing! On a nutritional basis - you can feel the difference!

I was talking to a child who just came back from Europe and I asked how the food was. "Awful!" she exclaimed. Puzzled I asked her why. "The eggs tasted like eggs. The chicken tasted like chicken." I had to burst out laughing. I knew exactly what she meant. We are pretty used to
the flavorless varieties in the supermarket with a shelf life of 10-years. In many South and Central American countries they have literally hundreds of different varieties of potatoes and corn. You cannot imagine the robust flavor and texture. It would be an unconscionable crime if these species were decimated by cross pollination with our hybridized, bastardized, modified crap.

No doc. Time to go out and taste some real life. It will give you a whole new perspective and perhaps an appreciation of what your wife is trying to provide for you and your beautiful boys.

Now back to Joni Mitchell. "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got til it's gone..."
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

But you should stick to your strong suit and knowledge of basic agricultural and horticultural practices is lacking.
Oh, so a doctorate in biomedical engineering doesn't give me any knowledge of bioengineering? Just out of curiosity, what is your background in the area?

The "tasteless" vegetables and fruit you speak of have less to do with the the genetic heritage, and more to do with: 1) the time elapsed between picking and consumption, and 2) the amount of processing done to the food before it is consumed.

* It has nothing to do with whether the fertilizers are organic or chemical.

* It has nothing to do with the use of herbicides or pesticides, although I'm not a fan of the abuse of said products.

I do a good bit of traveling myself.

* Food in other countries isn't what it's cracked up to be. My same wife will not buy fruits and vegetables from some of the South American countries you speak of, because they sometimes use human waste to fertilize their agricultural products. That qualifies as organic, BTW. If it doesn't say grown in the U.S.A., she won't eat it.

* When I have traveled in many countries, I am forced to drink (gag) sugary coca cola, because the water is infested with diarrhea-producing pathogens. The health bulletins I read even warn against eating the fresh produce, because it has been washed with the contaminated water. Instead I am forced to eat everything cooked.

My diet? Fresh fruits and vegetables, preferably RAW fish (even my 5-year-old fights his older brother for his share), cooked, deboned, deskined chicken breast, occasionally turkey, lots of nuts of various kinds, and whole grains. My kids have never been to McDonalds. I fight hard to eliminate the sugar, honey, and high fructose corn syrup that are in EVERYTHING these days. And for snacks, there's a drawer full of various flavors of Zone Bars for them to choose from. They are healthy, they eat as much as they want, and they don't have the least hint of obesity (unlike most kids today).

No matter how you want to spin honey, cane sugar, or corn syrup, it isn't part of the diet. Organic schmorganic - it's poison.

No, they don't eat lunch meats. I don't believe in the preservatives. No Oscar Meyer for them. That's one good thing about Germany - no preservatives in the "lunch meats." You get to see what those products are supposed to taste like. Of course that also means that you have to buy it fresh every single day.

No, they don't eat much in the way of prepared foods. Too many preservatives, too much food coloring, too much processing that destroys vital phytonutrients, and too much added high glycemic index junk.

THAT is what you taste, or are not tasting.

As for genetically modified anything, well the whole argument is preposterous. Virtually everything YOU eat is genetically modified, unless you're fishing out of the ocean, hunting in Africa, or picking berries in the wilderness. The only argument here is HOW your food is genetically modified. The choice in the past was natural selection and hybridization. Today we can get from A to Z much faster. Somehow when we employ modern bioengineering techniques, the result is evil. In the end, the DNA doesn't give a rat's tushie how it got to be what it is.

Yes, there are major problems on this planet with the lack of genetic diversity in the plant food supply.

Yes, there are major problems on this planet with excessive use of herbicides and pesticides. It is likely the cause of ever decreasing sperm counts in men around the world (compounds that act like estrogen analogues, etc.).

On the other hand, we keep turning all the agricultural land to suburbs, and burning up the forest. We could always exterminate half the planet, and allow those plants that have lower yield to play a major role in the food supply. Who gets the gas first?

Or... We can genetically modify plants so they aren't vulnerable to the insects and diseases that plague them (rather than use pesticides and herbicides). I sure would like that. I have some American Chestnuts in my back yard. As soon as they get to about 10 feet high, they are killed by Chestnut blight (an Asian import, BTW). Once upon a time, they were the most impressive trees in the western hemisphere, and a major supplier of food in nature. If you could genetically modify those trees so they contain the gene that the Chinese Chestnut has that makes it resistant to the blight, I sure would appreciate it. The Chinese Chestnut just doesn't compare. And it's taking bloody forever to get to the end game with hundreds of generations of hybridization, so you eliminate all Chinese Chestnut except for that one bloody genome that gets the job done... But by the long approach, we'll probably end up with a solution that just isn't quite the American original. Too bad...

Same with the American Elm. Can you help my friend Rich? He's got a wild one in his yard. It doesn't have Dutch Elm disease (an Asian import) - yet. Sure would be nice to fix it now.

We can also get to genetic diversity quickly through modern techniques, rather than what they are doing today which is to mass produce a few species that have high yield and low vulnerability.

By the way, the same techniques will one day cure sickle cell anemia, and Huntington's Disease, and Tay Sachs, and..., and... And it might help my sister with the Great Danes she breeds. It's tragic seeing them die on average at about 7 years of age.

Yes, we sometimes unleash and wreak havoc in the environment. Speaking of the Europeans, one of their idiots unleashed Starlings in this country. Because they don't have their natural parasitic enemy here, they're overrunning the place. In some places, they consume more grain than livestock, causing farmers to have to take drastic steps to get rid of them. And some idiot European unleashed the gray squirrel here, and it has overrun the native red squirrel. Now we homeowners sometimes have to resort to drastic means to cull them from our suburbs. (In my case, my native red-tailed hawk does the job).

But this has nothing to do with GM foods per se. There are worst case scenarios, but the benefits outweigh the risks.

And if you had FRESH GM vs. "normal" fruits and vegetables and tasted them side by side, I'll bet you couldn't tell the difference. Furthermore, they could be genetically modified to produce more of the cancer-fighting phytonutrients that most people are so lacking in their diets today.

End of rant.

- Bill

P.S. By the way, you should come by my yard some time. Whenever possible, I plant natives. Ever seen a mountain laurel (kalmia latifolia) bloom in suburbia? You won't find that plant at Home Depot. Oh, and that golden thing is the flower of a white oak (quercus alba). You won't find that at Home Depot either.

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Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

My post above comes partially from my own passion about nature - particularly Native American wildlife.

Here are a few Websites worth investigating, related to topics I raised above.

The American Chestnut Foundation

Saving the American Elm

DED-RESISTANT AMERICAN ELMS AND HYBRIDS

North American Native Plant Society

Cascades Raptor Center

- Bill
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Post by 2Green »

Well, at least you can't say we're all a bunch of single-minded martial artists.

NM
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

:lol:

I don't know... Lots of martial artists I know are into nature and the gardener thing. Music too. And fast cars.... Maybe the modern Shaolin thing going on here?

Passion is a wonderful thing, and can be pointed in many useful directions. Occasionally on the journey we stumble on some things that really click with us.

- Bill
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Not using DDT killing millions annually says Dr. Williams

Post by RACastanet »

Reckless environmentalism is now responsible for the deaths of millions annually:

"What were the effects? In what is now Sri Lanka there were 2,800,000 malaria cases and 7,300 malaria deaths in 1948; with the use of DDT there were only 17 cases and no deaths in 1964. After DDT use was discontinued, Sri Lankan malaria cases rose to 500,000 in 1969. Worldwide malaria's devastating effects all but ended during the time that DDT use was widespread roughly 1950-1970. DDT was seen as such a miracle that it earned Dr. Paul Muller the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 1948. In 1970, a committee of the National Academy of Sciences wrote, "To only a few chemicals does man owe as great a debt as to DDT. In a little more than two decades, DDT has prevented 500 million deaths due to malaria that otherwise would have been inevitable."

Overuse of DDT is bad for the environment. However, the 'non-scientist' extremists would rather see millions die rather than think logically and use the product at all.

For the entire article by Dr. Williams click on this link:

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economic ... lling.html

Mankind does live better through chemicals.

Rich
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Yea, Rich, but we've gotta work on that DDT. Too long a half life. When it starts appearing in human breast milk, you've gotta take a second look.

Remember - the reason why we have Bald Eagles on the James once again is because we got rid of DDT. It was making the bird eggs so brittle that they were breaking under the weight of mom in the nest. Now we have ever increasing numbers every year, and I have red-tailed hawks nesting in my back yard.

A little malathion goes a long way, and doesn't stick around long enough to cause permanent harm. That's what they sprayed over us weekly when I grew up in the marshy, wet Tidewater area in Southeast Virginia. No ill effects, except for those 16 nipples... 8O :lol:

BTW, you should check out my property. I have wetlands in the back, and have the fewest mosquitoes in the neighborhood. I've got a birdbath with water in it so old that algae grows in it, and yet not a single larva. Why?

Dragonflies!

Image

I borrowed that photo. I'll get one of my own by summer's end. I have quite the variety. Don't know how I was so blessed, but the fact that I avoid insecticides whenever possible is a good reason why they hang around.

And my bats...

Image

Thank you, Vicki, for my bat house. :)

Whenever possible, I prefer nature's solution. These guys are a LOT more fun.

And it's really funny seeing my wife use an umbrella to come out to the car late at night... :lol:

- Bill
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Post by RACastanet »

Yes, too much DDT is a bad thing. However, used judiciously it is not that poisonous. What happened with DDT was that it ewas spread in large volumes without care to keep it out of the waterways etc. I remember my dad just tossing handfulls of the stuff aound the house. This is how it was used. A little here and there is not going to cause any major ecological problems.

There are places in the world where DDT should be used regardless of the risk to wildlife and growing 12 nipples. Millions die annually in the third world countries where diseases carried by insects and vermin flourish. Do a search to get the numbers of those who are infected with maleria and die. It is a huge #! But ECO PC extremists prevent the use of DDT where it can do some good.

Of course, there are those that worry more about a bird that humans. And there are those that consider the third world population in need of pruning anyway. We worry about the aids epidemic. More lives could be saved by using DDT, an inexpensive insecticide!

Last year dragonflies moved into my yard and pretty much did away with the wasps and hornets. A definite plus.

Rich... Living better through chemicals!
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

We just need a DDT with a shorter half life, Rich. The stuff stays around too long, no matter how little you use. Better living through better chemicals, no?

It isn't just the humans, Rich. A lot of people are losing their trees to Gypsy Moths. They are making their way down here... 8O DDT was the only thing that kept them at bay. Then we banned it, and they are coming back with a vengeance.

We can do better.

We could also come up with a little bit of biological warfare... I like those creative solutions.

- Bill
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Post by IJ »

I'm a big fan of long term solutions. Just as we've ben discussing on other threads, we can't live on gas indefinitely, so we need something else. Disease control thru DDT sems to me to be a temporary fix... eventually some mosquito is going to be resistant, and around then things will go back to the way they were, except we'll have caused some irreversible damage to the planet in terms of loss of diversity. That's something I think future generations will have trouble forgiving us for. A lot of the other damage can heal.

Who's for a malaria vaccine?

What's the proportion of cash being spent on THAT rather than me-too Viagra clones and dermatology drugs? I'm not sure, but I do recall production of the "resurrection drug" (eflornithine?) for sleeping sickness being shut down by it's only producer at the time because the people affected weren't paying for it.
--Ian
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I did a little photography around the yard today. These pictures are my own.

Here are three of my dragon flies.

This first guy's territory is on my "May Hill" where I have my Mountain Laurels, my Rhododendrons, and my Red Twigs (cornus sericia - a Virginia native). He likes to hang out on top of a stake I put by one of my smaller bushes to protect it.
Image

This guy's territory is my front porch.
Image

This guy also claims the front porch area. Note the similarities and differences to his buddy.
Image

Now can you see why I rarely use pesticides? And I don't have a mosquito problem in spite of the wetlands on the back end of my property.

Here's a picture of a surviving American Chestnut that's been flowering and going to seed (or nut...) for a few years now. I'm sending in some samples to the foundation I posted above.
Image

I'm convinced that the only way to save this species relatively intact (without Chinese Chestnut impurities) is through genetic modification. Give me a good reason why we shouldn't try to save this variety of Chestnut. These are magnificent trees, but don't live long today because of the Blight.

- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RACastanet »

Hopefully chestnuts will make a comeback. Unfortunately, the oak is now a potential victim of some imported disease..

Rich
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Don't say that... I think I have half a dozen varieties of oak on my property (white oak, northern red oak, chestnut oak, shumard oak, several varieties I have yet to pinpoint).

So far so good with me. Mine are healthy.

Want to know something? I think the reason why things do so well on my property is because of the biodiversity. Everyone on the West End wants to plant the same old same old (Crape Myrtle, Bradford Pear, Willow Oak, red maple). Those are fine... (gag) Problem is, most of the stuff isn't native, AND they plant a gazillion of them all in a row on commercial property. It's a European garden look I guess. But it's just like throwing a bunch of toddlers in a cramped daycare facility. You are almost guaranteed to make them sick.

I only have an acre and a half, and I have literally dozens of species of trees. If one gets sick, its neighbor is a few trees away and won't catch the bug very easily. This, I believe, is one reason why the American Chestnuts are still alive in this swath of trees.

That and the fact that the loggers missed this stretch of land before civilization hit. Most folks around me have groves of Pinus Virginiana (scrub pine). Pretty bleak looking. No wonder they all want to go down to Lowe's... But they're planting the wrong stuff (any old thing that'll look good in 2 years) and they aren't planting them in the right pattern.

- Bill
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Post by RACastanet »

Here is the news on Oak Wilt:

Oak wilt is a fungal infection affecting oak trees. All species of oak are susceptible with red oaks being particularly vulnerable. In red oaks, oak wilt is almost always lethal and death can occur in as little as one month. There is currently no known cure and the best way of dealing with oak wilt is to isolate and then destroy the affected trees. This disease has been discovered in 21 eastern US states with the heaviest damage occurring in the mid-west states surrounding the Great Lakes. However, oak wilt has been reported as far south as Texas.

A link to the site:

http://www.treehelp.com/trees/oak/diseases-oak-wilt.asp

Not much we can do to stop this threat.

Rich
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