Sorry about the long delay. Getting back from Boston, I arrived to find a huge number of obligations to fill, and there's no end in sight until Sept. 1st or so. But I found a quiet moment at last to post. Yay!
What started as a misunderstanding spent some time as a joke and then became serious, concluding in the opportunity for me to teach a class on how belly dance relates to martial arts at the Uechi summer camp. I've always applied what I know of belly dance to martial arts, though I didn't know it at the time, and over the years I became more conscious of it. Putting it together in my head and then testing it out prior to the camp was fun. Actually executing the class, I found that I didn't have enough time to go over it all, and we went at a whirlwind pace, at least for my style of teaching.
So to open this thread I wanted to first outline what we did manage to cover as a reminder to those who were in the class in case they wanted to continue to practice the forms on their own, and to open the concepts to discussion for the brave and curious.
The basics of belly dance complement martial arts.
Feet should be 'spread', so that the foot has maximum contact with the ground.
Knees should be bent for balance and the ability to change direction and force quickly and to accommodate balance.
Spine should be straight, hips tucked slightly forward. In martial arts this is protective and can armor the abs. In belly dance it protects the vertabrae in the lower back from grinding and wear and tear when you execute moves that require back flexibility. The spine should also feel 'tall' and elongated in belly dance, so you don't feel crunched down. Considering the elongation of the spine, I wonder if lack of this 'standing tall' limits spinal flexibility and leads to some of the 'stiffness' flaw seen in some when they practice kata.
Shoulders should be held so that the weight of the arms are suspended from the framework that nature provided us, namely the collarbones and the shoulderblades. It's my impression that when an instructor tells you to lower your shoulders, it's to encourage you to allow your skeleton to do it's supporting work so that your muscles can tighten and loosen with maximum efficiency and a minimum of carrying their own weight.
Those are most of the basic fundamental considerations of belly dance as I understand them. I'll get into movement as the thread progresses if you folks are interested.
Kami
Belly Karate
Moderator: Available
Belly Karate
One seed, many lives.
"Spine should be straight, hips tucked slightly forward. In martial arts this is protective and can armor the abs. In belly dance it protects the vertabrae in the lower back from grinding and wear and tear when you execute moves that require back flexibility. The spine should also feel 'tall' and elongated in belly dance, so you don't feel crunched down. Considering the elongation of the spine, I wonder if lack of this 'standing tall' limits spinal flexibility and leads to some of the 'stiffness' flaw seen in some when they practice kata." KZ Miller
I'd be very interested in getting Mr. Glasheen's medical-savvy input on this, as there was a discussion on another forum thread which indicated that the "tuck" was ineffectual or maybe even detrimental to body alignment and technique.
NM
I'd be very interested in getting Mr. Glasheen's medical-savvy input on this, as there was a discussion on another forum thread which indicated that the "tuck" was ineffectual or maybe even detrimental to body alignment and technique.
NM
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jorvik
Well to me this is interesting because when I do Martial Tai-Chi, it is very much like belly dancing.and I feel like I've had a really good internal workout, we do lots of hip rotating exercises.about an hour of them before we do Tai-Chi, and then in the Tai-chi we try to incorprate the hip or stomach into the form and then into "pushing-hands".there are other principles of course.i wonder though 
....I have heard that Karate is linked to folk dancing.is Belly dancing linked to a martial art?
....I have heard that Karate is linked to folk dancing.is Belly dancing linked to a martial art?-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
My perspective on the tuck is an evolving one.
Most styles of martial arts teach a pelvic tuck. It is one of the key features of sanchin stance. But just why do we do that tuck? Understanding this can help a person evolve from tuck as religion to tuck as tool.
* One key reason why to engage in the pelvic tuck is that it shortens the abdominal muscles. Shorter muscles are thicker muscles. Thus it helps with the external abdominal armor.
* Another reason is because it creates a straighter line from pelvis to shoulders. This allows efficient energy transmission back and forth in-between legs/hips and shoulders.
* Another reason is because it automatically causes the person to bend his/her knees. This slightly crouched position allows for better mobility. Kami told me at camp that this was key to belly dancing, and that the long garments that covered the knees were there to take the eyes away from the bent knees and more towards the movements of the hip and abdomen.
But there is more to this, once you get beyond the idea of pelvic position as rigid structure.
* The fact that movement of the pelvis from tuck to non-tuck also causes knees to flex and extend bring about a dynamic aspect of the stance. Once you get beyond the rigid structure stage and into movement and energy flow in karate, you realize that pelvic movement can translate to energy that can course up the spine to the shoulders. I've spent quite a lot of time on and off with Dana, learning how she does her Nakamatsu-inspired thrust. A key element is to snap the pelvis under at the very last moment, causing a kime at the time of contact on the target. It's once thing to "brace" for the contact. It's another thing to cause an infinitessimal movement at one end of the body that magnifies to a greater effect at the end of the arm.
A few more points...
My very first female black belt was Kathleen Wilson. George tested her for shodan the same day Bruce Hirabayashi received his, and the day I got my sandan. Kathleen was first a belly dancer. In fact when I first left the confines of Virginia Uechi instruction (under the late Rad Smith), and began to visit dojos up the coast, Kathleen went with me as girlfriend. In any case, she was with me when I first visited David Finkelstein in his NYC dojo in 1977. At one point in the workout, Kathleen was doing some exercises off in the corner. Her whole-body dexterity so fascinated David (who at the time also was a big Barishnikov fan) that he stopped the class and had Kathleen teach us what she was doing. Kathleen soon became a student of Uechi, and was a quick study.
Kathleen was one of many athletes that brought unique perspectives and training methods to the dojo. We are all made better by these points of view, and these unique skills. At times it was maddening to see Kathleen do some things in a workout that the entire rest of the class was struggling with. She was a gift, and a breath of fresh air.
In many ways, Kami reminds me of Kathleen. I'll leave it at that.
- Bill
Most styles of martial arts teach a pelvic tuck. It is one of the key features of sanchin stance. But just why do we do that tuck? Understanding this can help a person evolve from tuck as religion to tuck as tool.
* One key reason why to engage in the pelvic tuck is that it shortens the abdominal muscles. Shorter muscles are thicker muscles. Thus it helps with the external abdominal armor.
* Another reason is because it creates a straighter line from pelvis to shoulders. This allows efficient energy transmission back and forth in-between legs/hips and shoulders.
* Another reason is because it automatically causes the person to bend his/her knees. This slightly crouched position allows for better mobility. Kami told me at camp that this was key to belly dancing, and that the long garments that covered the knees were there to take the eyes away from the bent knees and more towards the movements of the hip and abdomen.
But there is more to this, once you get beyond the idea of pelvic position as rigid structure.
* The fact that movement of the pelvis from tuck to non-tuck also causes knees to flex and extend bring about a dynamic aspect of the stance. Once you get beyond the rigid structure stage and into movement and energy flow in karate, you realize that pelvic movement can translate to energy that can course up the spine to the shoulders. I've spent quite a lot of time on and off with Dana, learning how she does her Nakamatsu-inspired thrust. A key element is to snap the pelvis under at the very last moment, causing a kime at the time of contact on the target. It's once thing to "brace" for the contact. It's another thing to cause an infinitessimal movement at one end of the body that magnifies to a greater effect at the end of the arm.
A few more points...
My very first female black belt was Kathleen Wilson. George tested her for shodan the same day Bruce Hirabayashi received his, and the day I got my sandan. Kathleen was first a belly dancer. In fact when I first left the confines of Virginia Uechi instruction (under the late Rad Smith), and began to visit dojos up the coast, Kathleen went with me as girlfriend. In any case, she was with me when I first visited David Finkelstein in his NYC dojo in 1977. At one point in the workout, Kathleen was doing some exercises off in the corner. Her whole-body dexterity so fascinated David (who at the time also was a big Barishnikov fan) that he stopped the class and had Kathleen teach us what she was doing. Kathleen soon became a student of Uechi, and was a quick study.
Kathleen was one of many athletes that brought unique perspectives and training methods to the dojo. We are all made better by these points of view, and these unique skills. At times it was maddening to see Kathleen do some things in a workout that the entire rest of the class was struggling with. She was a gift, and a breath of fresh air.
In many ways, Kami reminds me of Kathleen. I'll leave it at that.
- Bill
Uechi isolations?
Wonderful to see you again Kami, been looking forward to your return.
You, me and another woman I talked briefly with who studied both dance and Uechi share dislike of not 'standing tall.' This practice feels wrong to us but there's no way to get around it if we want to do effective Uechi. However, we see some practitioners actually hunching the upper body over.
I learned dance as you taught it last weekend, beginning with isolations. Beginners first have to sort of 'find' their body parts before they can use them correctly. Both points are paramount: correct use of correct body part. Next most important is building the strength in all muscles needed. For a serious dancer this is the entire body since the body itself transforms into the choreographer’s vision. I think isolations help dancers master their bodies for the mind-body processing required for many things. Repetition helps develop the strength – hip/abdominal/bum strength key for TC karate as well as dance. It’s funny hearing that people assumed belly dancing-martial arts connection was a joke. One body, many different uses but all drawing from one source of physical power and control.
You, me and another woman I talked briefly with who studied both dance and Uechi share dislike of not 'standing tall.' This practice feels wrong to us but there's no way to get around it if we want to do effective Uechi. However, we see some practitioners actually hunching the upper body over.
I learned dance as you taught it last weekend, beginning with isolations. Beginners first have to sort of 'find' their body parts before they can use them correctly. Both points are paramount: correct use of correct body part. Next most important is building the strength in all muscles needed. For a serious dancer this is the entire body since the body itself transforms into the choreographer’s vision. I think isolations help dancers master their bodies for the mind-body processing required for many things. Repetition helps develop the strength – hip/abdominal/bum strength key for TC karate as well as dance. It’s funny hearing that people assumed belly dancing-martial arts connection was a joke. One body, many different uses but all drawing from one source of physical power and control.
Hi everyone! (Blushing at all the praise ...)
From what I've seen in hip tucking, I find it can be exagerrated and at that point you're losing flexibility and mobility. Tuck that hip too far forward and you're sunk. I'm not sure how it is in Uechi kata, but in belly dance it becomes swiftly obvious if you've tucked too tight. In dance the tuck is slight, and when popping and thrusting and whipping those hips around, when the tuck is right then your muscles can help with the maneuvering. You can do all the hip motions sans tuck, but then the belly isn't easily engaged and you lose a bit of control (and endurance!). When you have too much tuck you're fighting yourself and the movements become too focused in the belly, which slows you down. You want the ability to have the *choice* of engaging any muscle group at any given time (hence the speed and control of expert belly dancers' gyrating hips). Ideally you can learn to execute the movements with complex sequences of muscle engagement, providing the right amount of looseness and tension in the correct places in order to shift directions with the blush of a thought, or no thought at all if you've got it all programmed into yourself.
Where it gets really kewl, IMHO, is when that tuck is toyed with. Unfortunately in the class I didn't have enough time to get through the whole belly roll process down to the finest isolation. There you really explore the tuck-hip release combo from gross, exagerrated movements down to the tiniest squirm. What the belly roll ends up teaching to a martial artist is amazing hip control, as well as control of all the muscles that engage the hip. I'm sure it has lots of applications but I'm still developing all the connections (it's so exciting!) and simultaneously I have to be careful not to take it too far. They are after all separate arts. But they do seem to complement each other remarkably.
In dance I was taught a hip-leg connection where you can focus on the hips driving the leg motion rather than the other way around. Very difficult to do quickly (I'm still working on that and probably will for many years to come). I didn't realize that the hip tuck will prompt your knees to bend. That's excellent! And I have noticed that those infitesmal hip movements can transmit tremendous power. In fact, when told to engage the hips, many women (due to the nature of their larger, more open pelvises ...pelvisi? heh) overengage. They'll overengage on kicks and move the hips past the ideal point on punches. So be careful when advising women to put hip into a movement. Chances are she's already doing it, she's just not doing it with the correct timing or control.
What we did next in class, after covering the basics and stance (btw, there is a school of thought that prefers to have one foot slightly forward and the other school of thought is that feet should be even beneath the hips ... this leads to a can of worms that I won't open now but I wanted to remind those who were in the class of this) we went into the most basic movement of belly dance, the hip circle. Many MA schools use it as a warm up, although they often move the upper body around freely. In belly dance, the head stays in one space and the feet are hip wide on the floor while the whole rest of the body moves around to its fullest range of motion. I won't describe the largest hip circle in more detail unless someone doesn't know what I'm talking about it.
Belly dance takes the hip circle into a deeper level, once the hips are warm with the full hip circle. You imagine there's a bowl of liquid centered in your hips, and you tip that bowl around so that you wet the rim of the bowl all the way around. You can do this using your legs but ideally the point is to have the legs moved by the motion of the hip, and the hip to move by the abs and back and side muscles and all the little muscles you don't think about that connect in interesting ways into the hip from the upper body. When you do this right (and you're not stressed about executing the movement correctly) you'll feel the sequence of muscle tension and relaxation moving around your body. It's an excellent and awesome feeling, especially when the 'bowl' is perfectly round. My clockwise bowl has a flat edge. Obviously the potter dropped it while making it and decided to fire it anyway.
If you want to try the 'bowl' hip circle at home, be sure to keep the head stationary and preferably the ribs as well. The further down your body from the top of your head that you can keep locked one place while the hip moves around, the more intense the isolation will be and the more you'll learn from it. This is not a large movement and is reminiscent of squirming in a seat to get more comfortable.
One of the other things I'm trying to teach my friends right now with the bowl hip circle is that when the front of the bowl is wet that the belly should fully relax and even pooch out a bit to emphasize the movement, and to not arch the back overly so that their butt sticks out. So that references back to keeping the hip tucked, only in this case since you're relaxing the tuck when the edge of the bowl is low in front, you have to make sure not to release that tuck too far and arch the back. Am I making sense? The other thing that releasing the belly so fully with the movement teaches folks is control of the agonistic and antagonistic dynamic. It's easy to do in the belly, harder to do elsewhere but once you get that powerful feeling down you'll be able to look for its more subtle manifestations elsewhere.
Kami
From what I've seen in hip tucking, I find it can be exagerrated and at that point you're losing flexibility and mobility. Tuck that hip too far forward and you're sunk. I'm not sure how it is in Uechi kata, but in belly dance it becomes swiftly obvious if you've tucked too tight. In dance the tuck is slight, and when popping and thrusting and whipping those hips around, when the tuck is right then your muscles can help with the maneuvering. You can do all the hip motions sans tuck, but then the belly isn't easily engaged and you lose a bit of control (and endurance!). When you have too much tuck you're fighting yourself and the movements become too focused in the belly, which slows you down. You want the ability to have the *choice* of engaging any muscle group at any given time (hence the speed and control of expert belly dancers' gyrating hips). Ideally you can learn to execute the movements with complex sequences of muscle engagement, providing the right amount of looseness and tension in the correct places in order to shift directions with the blush of a thought, or no thought at all if you've got it all programmed into yourself.
Where it gets really kewl, IMHO, is when that tuck is toyed with. Unfortunately in the class I didn't have enough time to get through the whole belly roll process down to the finest isolation. There you really explore the tuck-hip release combo from gross, exagerrated movements down to the tiniest squirm. What the belly roll ends up teaching to a martial artist is amazing hip control, as well as control of all the muscles that engage the hip. I'm sure it has lots of applications but I'm still developing all the connections (it's so exciting!) and simultaneously I have to be careful not to take it too far. They are after all separate arts. But they do seem to complement each other remarkably.
In dance I was taught a hip-leg connection where you can focus on the hips driving the leg motion rather than the other way around. Very difficult to do quickly (I'm still working on that and probably will for many years to come). I didn't realize that the hip tuck will prompt your knees to bend. That's excellent! And I have noticed that those infitesmal hip movements can transmit tremendous power. In fact, when told to engage the hips, many women (due to the nature of their larger, more open pelvises ...pelvisi? heh) overengage. They'll overengage on kicks and move the hips past the ideal point on punches. So be careful when advising women to put hip into a movement. Chances are she's already doing it, she's just not doing it with the correct timing or control.
What we did next in class, after covering the basics and stance (btw, there is a school of thought that prefers to have one foot slightly forward and the other school of thought is that feet should be even beneath the hips ... this leads to a can of worms that I won't open now but I wanted to remind those who were in the class of this) we went into the most basic movement of belly dance, the hip circle. Many MA schools use it as a warm up, although they often move the upper body around freely. In belly dance, the head stays in one space and the feet are hip wide on the floor while the whole rest of the body moves around to its fullest range of motion. I won't describe the largest hip circle in more detail unless someone doesn't know what I'm talking about it.
Belly dance takes the hip circle into a deeper level, once the hips are warm with the full hip circle. You imagine there's a bowl of liquid centered in your hips, and you tip that bowl around so that you wet the rim of the bowl all the way around. You can do this using your legs but ideally the point is to have the legs moved by the motion of the hip, and the hip to move by the abs and back and side muscles and all the little muscles you don't think about that connect in interesting ways into the hip from the upper body. When you do this right (and you're not stressed about executing the movement correctly) you'll feel the sequence of muscle tension and relaxation moving around your body. It's an excellent and awesome feeling, especially when the 'bowl' is perfectly round. My clockwise bowl has a flat edge. Obviously the potter dropped it while making it and decided to fire it anyway.
If you want to try the 'bowl' hip circle at home, be sure to keep the head stationary and preferably the ribs as well. The further down your body from the top of your head that you can keep locked one place while the hip moves around, the more intense the isolation will be and the more you'll learn from it. This is not a large movement and is reminiscent of squirming in a seat to get more comfortable.
One of the other things I'm trying to teach my friends right now with the bowl hip circle is that when the front of the bowl is wet that the belly should fully relax and even pooch out a bit to emphasize the movement, and to not arch the back overly so that their butt sticks out. So that references back to keeping the hip tucked, only in this case since you're relaxing the tuck when the edge of the bowl is low in front, you have to make sure not to release that tuck too far and arch the back. Am I making sense? The other thing that releasing the belly so fully with the movement teaches folks is control of the agonistic and antagonistic dynamic. It's easy to do in the belly, harder to do elsewhere but once you get that powerful feeling down you'll be able to look for its more subtle manifestations elsewhere.
Kami
One seed, many lives.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Kami, you are good! I have a really good idea what you are talking about based on what you have written.
We guys have some "issues" with this "bowl rolling" thing. I do it pretty easily, and sometimes do it to warm up. I've never thought much about why I can do it. Partially genetics I'm sure. As I was telling CJ, I have a Great Aunt who was a Rockette. Her sister (my grandmother) could shake her bootie in a pretty fine way as well. My sister used to do the disco thing in the 1970s, and her "entorage" would go from club to club (in Virginia Beach) and get in for free because of the crowd that followed them. So..some genetics there. But when I think back about it, I think Kathleen must have taught me that motion at one point. Now it's just "me." But every time I do it, I get comments from the peanut gallery. One or two women in my dojo (names will not be mentioned...) giggle when I do it. I was warming up with "the roll" in Steve Perry's dojo at a promotional a few years ago, and Raffi couldn't help but "comment."
Oh well... As I always say, no blood, no foul. 
Let's just say it looks "different" when a male does it...
That being said, I had to think about your "flattened circle" comment. A professional colleague of mine in Phoenix does and teaches Scott Sonnen exercises. One of them involves similar neck movements in circles. He was showing these to me, and similarly commented on the need to make the movements both smooth (no "slip-stick") and perfectly round. Anyhow when it is a problem, I guess it might be two different things. One might just be lack of coordination of the various agonists/antagonists. The other might be a "stuck vertebral gap" issue. If that's the case, one wonders if a chiropractic adjustment might loosen things up a bit. You might check that out in your case, Kami, to see if it makes a difference. Just a thought...
Good stuff, Kami. So far you make perfect sense.
To some extent, I think exercises like these might promote generalizeable athletic skills, much like the kinds of things that Keven Guse (Uechika and former Nebraska football player) is working on in his athletic training video. (Lots of incredibly neat and difficult exercises. Coming soon on DVD!!!). For the Uechika, I think it's the ticket to get out of the sanchin straightjacket, and working towards a more "live" posture with lots of "jing" (for lack of a better word).
- Bill
We guys have some "issues" with this "bowl rolling" thing. I do it pretty easily, and sometimes do it to warm up. I've never thought much about why I can do it. Partially genetics I'm sure. As I was telling CJ, I have a Great Aunt who was a Rockette. Her sister (my grandmother) could shake her bootie in a pretty fine way as well. My sister used to do the disco thing in the 1970s, and her "entorage" would go from club to club (in Virginia Beach) and get in for free because of the crowd that followed them. So..some genetics there. But when I think back about it, I think Kathleen must have taught me that motion at one point. Now it's just "me." But every time I do it, I get comments from the peanut gallery. One or two women in my dojo (names will not be mentioned...) giggle when I do it. I was warming up with "the roll" in Steve Perry's dojo at a promotional a few years ago, and Raffi couldn't help but "comment."
Oh well... As I always say, no blood, no foul. Let's just say it looks "different" when a male does it...
That being said, I had to think about your "flattened circle" comment. A professional colleague of mine in Phoenix does and teaches Scott Sonnen exercises. One of them involves similar neck movements in circles. He was showing these to me, and similarly commented on the need to make the movements both smooth (no "slip-stick") and perfectly round. Anyhow when it is a problem, I guess it might be two different things. One might just be lack of coordination of the various agonists/antagonists. The other might be a "stuck vertebral gap" issue. If that's the case, one wonders if a chiropractic adjustment might loosen things up a bit. You might check that out in your case, Kami, to see if it makes a difference. Just a thought...
Good stuff, Kami. So far you make perfect sense.
To some extent, I think exercises like these might promote generalizeable athletic skills, much like the kinds of things that Keven Guse (Uechika and former Nebraska football player) is working on in his athletic training video. (Lots of incredibly neat and difficult exercises. Coming soon on DVD!!!). For the Uechika, I think it's the ticket to get out of the sanchin straightjacket, and working towards a more "live" posture with lots of "jing" (for lack of a better word).
- Bill
I can see guys having issues with moving that bowl around. But it's very valuable. Btw, I am going to have my back taken care of soon, I hope. I messed up my neck years ago and that damage has somehow traveled down my spine into my lower back. I get sciatic pain down my left leg that comes and goes and my low back often feels weak and kind of disconnected. I keep thinking that yoga will realign me but I think I'll just have to buckle down and see a chiropractor.
Anyway ...
Next in class we did rib slides. I don't think we ended up doing rib circles. I was already fighting the clock. Anyway, with rib slides the illusion aspect of dance becomes clear. By carefully lifting the shoulder on the side you're sliding your ribs on, you create the illusion of the ribs floating sideways, completely separate from the spine, parallel to the ground. What's really going on is that you are curving the spine in an angle not usual in our daily motion. This has a couple of benefits to the martial artist. First off, this stretches muscles in the side, hips, back and abs in a direction that you don't normally have access to. Normal side stretches pull heavily on a a higher set of muscles and don't stretch the others much. If you do this at home, really pay attention to what the rib slide does in the hip and low side muscles. And of course you're working small muscles that normally don't get used at all. Developing these muscles is very good for you to increase power, control, connection between upper and lower body and also you're less likely to injure these small, seldom used muscles if they're in good condition. If you try the rib slide without the shoulders, you won't get as much diagonal pull across the body, so maintaining the illusion does have a purpose beyond aesthetics, though I doubt that's why it was developed.
We then graduated to more dynamic movements, namely shimmies. The shimmy is core to dance and is core to the coveted hip control. Unfortunately it's far more difficult to describe than it is to demonstrate, but maybe we'll discover a few things in my attempts to describe it that wouldn't otherwise be apparent.
With the weight focused on one foot, the dancer thrusts the same side hip sideways (initially ... angles change depending on direction and aesthetics when dancing) aggressively and with percussion. Keeping the weight on the same foot (when walking with shimmy the other foot is completely off the ground) the dancer pulls the hip in to a neutral position, then thrusts it back out. This completes one side of the shimmy. You then thrust the other hip aggressively out, bringing the weight onto the other foot, bring the hip in, thrust back out, and now you return to the other side. The count ends up in rhythm with most Middle Eastern music, where the beat is broken up into series of 3s and 2s rather than a straight 4/4 time, although much of the music can be counted alternately in 4/4 time as well. You count with the hip movement 1 2 3, pause long enough to switch weight, and 1 2 3 on the other side. 1 is aggressive, staccato sideways (like slamming a door shut with your hip), 2 is the pull in, 3 is the second aggressive thrust sideways. When done properly you walk 'naturally', the feet pacing out a steady stride, with the hips moving in shimmy as the weight shifts back and forth.
The value to a martial artist is that this teaches them that the hip and the legs don't have to be in lockstep. It gives you the ability of shifting your hip midstride, mid-kick, mid-chew, mid-thought. I think if I had to pick a small number of things for martial artists to take from bellydance into their practice, it would be the shimmy, the belly roll and the hand exercises/conditioning, which give remarkable strength while simultaneously granting increased suppleness. Now that I think about it, I think that's the gift from almost all the bellydance. Strength with suppleness, and of course control.
Kami
Anyway ...
Next in class we did rib slides. I don't think we ended up doing rib circles. I was already fighting the clock. Anyway, with rib slides the illusion aspect of dance becomes clear. By carefully lifting the shoulder on the side you're sliding your ribs on, you create the illusion of the ribs floating sideways, completely separate from the spine, parallel to the ground. What's really going on is that you are curving the spine in an angle not usual in our daily motion. This has a couple of benefits to the martial artist. First off, this stretches muscles in the side, hips, back and abs in a direction that you don't normally have access to. Normal side stretches pull heavily on a a higher set of muscles and don't stretch the others much. If you do this at home, really pay attention to what the rib slide does in the hip and low side muscles. And of course you're working small muscles that normally don't get used at all. Developing these muscles is very good for you to increase power, control, connection between upper and lower body and also you're less likely to injure these small, seldom used muscles if they're in good condition. If you try the rib slide without the shoulders, you won't get as much diagonal pull across the body, so maintaining the illusion does have a purpose beyond aesthetics, though I doubt that's why it was developed.
We then graduated to more dynamic movements, namely shimmies. The shimmy is core to dance and is core to the coveted hip control. Unfortunately it's far more difficult to describe than it is to demonstrate, but maybe we'll discover a few things in my attempts to describe it that wouldn't otherwise be apparent.
With the weight focused on one foot, the dancer thrusts the same side hip sideways (initially ... angles change depending on direction and aesthetics when dancing) aggressively and with percussion. Keeping the weight on the same foot (when walking with shimmy the other foot is completely off the ground) the dancer pulls the hip in to a neutral position, then thrusts it back out. This completes one side of the shimmy. You then thrust the other hip aggressively out, bringing the weight onto the other foot, bring the hip in, thrust back out, and now you return to the other side. The count ends up in rhythm with most Middle Eastern music, where the beat is broken up into series of 3s and 2s rather than a straight 4/4 time, although much of the music can be counted alternately in 4/4 time as well. You count with the hip movement 1 2 3, pause long enough to switch weight, and 1 2 3 on the other side. 1 is aggressive, staccato sideways (like slamming a door shut with your hip), 2 is the pull in, 3 is the second aggressive thrust sideways. When done properly you walk 'naturally', the feet pacing out a steady stride, with the hips moving in shimmy as the weight shifts back and forth.
The value to a martial artist is that this teaches them that the hip and the legs don't have to be in lockstep. It gives you the ability of shifting your hip midstride, mid-kick, mid-chew, mid-thought. I think if I had to pick a small number of things for martial artists to take from bellydance into their practice, it would be the shimmy, the belly roll and the hand exercises/conditioning, which give remarkable strength while simultaneously granting increased suppleness. Now that I think about it, I think that's the gift from almost all the bellydance. Strength with suppleness, and of course control.
Kami
One seed, many lives.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Bingo! Best to get that checked. At the very least, know what your baseline is w.r.t. the condition of your vertebral discs and your individual joint flexibilities. Neural symptoms are a red flag indicating that you should get things checked out.I get sciatic pain down my left leg that comes and goes
I have a hard time picturing the shimmies based on description. It is however obvious to me that there is a lot of life in the back that needs to be investigated here.
When I next go to the bookstore, I'll check out what they have on the subject, and then match it up to your description here.
Excellent summary on the benefits!
- Bill
You might have trouble finding that particular shimmy in a book or on video. Good luck! I have only found it taught by a local tribal belly dance group (tribal as in group dancing as opposed to tribal bedouin). I'm sure it's taught elsewhere as well. You're more likely to find the triple shimmy, where the hip lifts, drops down and then goes out to the side like you're sketching a J with your hip on the wall in front of you. Once that hip is out at the bottom end of the J you're primed to lift the opposite hip up and then down and out for the other side for a mirror image J. This is another walking shimmy, where the body's weight rests on the same side foot as the hip that ends up at the bottom of the J. Before you switch your weight to the other foot you lift the hip and then in the process of bringing the hip down and out you move your weight onto the other foot.
The hip control isn't as profound in the triple as it is in the shimmy because once the motion gets going it is self-perpetuating the same way that ... hmm, searching for good example ... walking is. Once you start moving your weight forward and putting one foot in front of the other the natural balance of the body makes perpetuating the motion an easy, rhythmic practice. The shimmy is not easy and requires a lot of effort to maintain, more like jumping up and down than walking. The challenge in the triple is to not be lazy and let the hip wander. The motion should exist within the plane that bisects the front and back of the body, as if you were trapped between two plates of glass, one in front and one behind you.
I can give the shimmy description another go. Stand with feet at a distance you can comfortably walk with. Now, as if you're bumping a car door shut with your hip, bump your right hip out sideways and set your weight on the right foot. Next, return your hip to a neutral position but keep the weight on the right foot. Then bump the hip out again. Now you're set up to switch sides. Shifting your weight to the left foot, bump the left hip out. Return the hip to a neutral position, keeping the weight on the left foot, and then bump the hip out again.
At full speed the shimmy is reduced to small twitches and is done with the feet changing weight at a quick walking pace ... fast steps but small steps forward, backward, or in a circle. It's really interesting to feel the dynamic between the hip movements and your footsteps. Advanced dancers can execute this movement without countermoving in the upper body. It's entirely controlled by the small muscles above the hips on the side of the body, with some contribution from the low back and lower abs.
Btw, I went to a chiropractor today and I already feel some improvements. Yay! Rory is supposed to observe my posture over the next week and see if he notices any changes. Hopefully this will be the end of wimpy Kami running around with a stiff neck and achy back.
Kami
The hip control isn't as profound in the triple as it is in the shimmy because once the motion gets going it is self-perpetuating the same way that ... hmm, searching for good example ... walking is. Once you start moving your weight forward and putting one foot in front of the other the natural balance of the body makes perpetuating the motion an easy, rhythmic practice. The shimmy is not easy and requires a lot of effort to maintain, more like jumping up and down than walking. The challenge in the triple is to not be lazy and let the hip wander. The motion should exist within the plane that bisects the front and back of the body, as if you were trapped between two plates of glass, one in front and one behind you.
I can give the shimmy description another go. Stand with feet at a distance you can comfortably walk with. Now, as if you're bumping a car door shut with your hip, bump your right hip out sideways and set your weight on the right foot. Next, return your hip to a neutral position but keep the weight on the right foot. Then bump the hip out again. Now you're set up to switch sides. Shifting your weight to the left foot, bump the left hip out. Return the hip to a neutral position, keeping the weight on the left foot, and then bump the hip out again.
At full speed the shimmy is reduced to small twitches and is done with the feet changing weight at a quick walking pace ... fast steps but small steps forward, backward, or in a circle. It's really interesting to feel the dynamic between the hip movements and your footsteps. Advanced dancers can execute this movement without countermoving in the upper body. It's entirely controlled by the small muscles above the hips on the side of the body, with some contribution from the low back and lower abs.
Btw, I went to a chiropractor today and I already feel some improvements. Yay! Rory is supposed to observe my posture over the next week and see if he notices any changes. Hopefully this will be the end of wimpy Kami running around with a stiff neck and achy back.
Kami
One seed, many lives.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I have bad news, Kami. We're only delaying the inevitable. Rigor mortis wins in the end.Hopefully this will be the end of wimpy Kami running around with a stiff neck and achy back.
We're just trying to execute the most graceful path possible. No reason to hurt or be compromised at any point in time if you can improve your lot in life.
Life's a journey, and not a destination. Enjoy it the best you can.
- Bill
True, true. But rigor can be a good thing ...
If this stuff is too difficult to describe online, I guess everyone is just going to be forced to take a class. Darn it all ...
To remind those in class, we did the hand exercises that also kill the forearms, arm circles (individual, together, and in opposition), the structural belly roll, and ten o' clocks where the ribcage circles clockwise if you look at yourself sideways in a mirror so that your right shoulder is closest to the mirror. I think it's going to be too hard to describe these movements for those who weren't there to remember them. I do want to remind those of you who want to practice the structural belly roll to keep that heel high off the ground, and the stages of belly roll are Dolly, The D, the tuck, and the hip release.
I do want to mention in more detail an aspect of the arm circle that is very instructive, and you don't need to actually learn the arm circle to feel it. Start with your arm by your side. Slowly lift your arm, keeping it straight, to the side, so that if you're standing sideways to a wall you'd be brushing your hand up the wall. On the way up you should feel like your collarbones and shoulderblades are working like a suspension structure. When your arm is almost straight out sideways, or just before, you should feel a transition zone. This is where, in punching, your MA instructors tell you to drop your shoulder or keep your shoulders low. Instead of allowing the shoulder to hike up above the suspension of collarbone and shoulderblade, deliberately allow the weight of the arm to remain supported by the structure before you continue to raise the arm. You'll feel a shift when you do that, and you might even see a visible drop if you're looking in a mirror.
Continue to lift the arm up past shoulder level until your arm is pointing straight up. Up past shoulder height you'll feel more transitions, maybe just one, maybe several, maybe a continuous flow of smoothness where the shoulder seems to drop infinitesmally down to allow the collarbones and shoulderblade to carry the weight.
If you don't allow the skeleton to support the weight of the arm in this way, you have to use muscle to support that weight. That slows you down and binds you up. Lift your arm again without keeping your shoulder dropped into the skeletal structure. Your shoulder ends up bunched up against your neck, or even up against your ear. Can you hear your instructor say "Lower your shoulder!" Try to do it. It's too late. The muscles aren't aligned in a way to allow you to simply drop that shoulder. If the arm isn't all the way up you can drop the shoulder, but you're using muscle to do it!
When executing movements of the arms, therefore, you have to hang the weight of your arms from the skeletal structure from the very beginning or you'll be fighting yourself. If you end up riding those shoulders too high, then it takes even more muscle to pull them back down which makes things worse, not better.
I hope that helps people in their practice.
Kami
But rigor can be a good thing ...If this stuff is too difficult to describe online, I guess everyone is just going to be forced to take a class. Darn it all ...
To remind those in class, we did the hand exercises that also kill the forearms, arm circles (individual, together, and in opposition), the structural belly roll, and ten o' clocks where the ribcage circles clockwise if you look at yourself sideways in a mirror so that your right shoulder is closest to the mirror. I think it's going to be too hard to describe these movements for those who weren't there to remember them. I do want to remind those of you who want to practice the structural belly roll to keep that heel high off the ground, and the stages of belly roll are Dolly, The D, the tuck, and the hip release.
I do want to mention in more detail an aspect of the arm circle that is very instructive, and you don't need to actually learn the arm circle to feel it. Start with your arm by your side. Slowly lift your arm, keeping it straight, to the side, so that if you're standing sideways to a wall you'd be brushing your hand up the wall. On the way up you should feel like your collarbones and shoulderblades are working like a suspension structure. When your arm is almost straight out sideways, or just before, you should feel a transition zone. This is where, in punching, your MA instructors tell you to drop your shoulder or keep your shoulders low. Instead of allowing the shoulder to hike up above the suspension of collarbone and shoulderblade, deliberately allow the weight of the arm to remain supported by the structure before you continue to raise the arm. You'll feel a shift when you do that, and you might even see a visible drop if you're looking in a mirror.
Continue to lift the arm up past shoulder level until your arm is pointing straight up. Up past shoulder height you'll feel more transitions, maybe just one, maybe several, maybe a continuous flow of smoothness where the shoulder seems to drop infinitesmally down to allow the collarbones and shoulderblade to carry the weight.
If you don't allow the skeleton to support the weight of the arm in this way, you have to use muscle to support that weight. That slows you down and binds you up. Lift your arm again without keeping your shoulder dropped into the skeletal structure. Your shoulder ends up bunched up against your neck, or even up against your ear. Can you hear your instructor say "Lower your shoulder!" Try to do it. It's too late. The muscles aren't aligned in a way to allow you to simply drop that shoulder. If the arm isn't all the way up you can drop the shoulder, but you're using muscle to do it!
When executing movements of the arms, therefore, you have to hang the weight of your arms from the skeletal structure from the very beginning or you'll be fighting yourself. If you end up riding those shoulders too high, then it takes even more muscle to pull them back down which makes things worse, not better.
I hope that helps people in their practice.
Kami
One seed, many lives.
There is another aspect of belly dance I wanted to mention that I'm not sure is consciously practiced in Uechi. I saw it mentioned in a book on flexibility several months ago and thought "Aha, we do that in dance!"
The idea is to increase flexibility by using muscle power to stretch the opposing muscles. You do this naturally when you stretch in the morning by arching your back. The back contracts and arches and the belly relaxes, responding to the tension of the opposing muscles in the back. This allows the back muscles (if they're strong enough to rely on) to increase the stretch on the belly, stretching the muscles more deeply than if you'd relaxed both the back and the belly and used bracing (like hands on the back of your hips) to execute the same stretch. Sometimes the belly will tighten somewhat at full extension and the back relaxes somewhat, changing the stretch under tension in new ways to thoroughly stretch the entire abdominal structure.
So much in dance increases suppleness. I think the reason this happens occurs in part because dancers perform strenuous activities *at the extreme ranges of motion*. When we circle our wrists it's with power and control and at the extreme range of motion. When we rib circle, same thing. Hip figure eights, same thing, and on and on. Not every form a dancer does is done with power at the extreme range of motion, but enough of the movements are that the dancer's body becomes very strong and simultaneously flexible.
Kami
The idea is to increase flexibility by using muscle power to stretch the opposing muscles. You do this naturally when you stretch in the morning by arching your back. The back contracts and arches and the belly relaxes, responding to the tension of the opposing muscles in the back. This allows the back muscles (if they're strong enough to rely on) to increase the stretch on the belly, stretching the muscles more deeply than if you'd relaxed both the back and the belly and used bracing (like hands on the back of your hips) to execute the same stretch. Sometimes the belly will tighten somewhat at full extension and the back relaxes somewhat, changing the stretch under tension in new ways to thoroughly stretch the entire abdominal structure.
So much in dance increases suppleness. I think the reason this happens occurs in part because dancers perform strenuous activities *at the extreme ranges of motion*. When we circle our wrists it's with power and control and at the extreme range of motion. When we rib circle, same thing. Hip figure eights, same thing, and on and on. Not every form a dancer does is done with power at the extreme range of motion, but enough of the movements are that the dancer's body becomes very strong and simultaneously flexible.
Kami
One seed, many lives.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Good points Kami.
I'm a big fan of useable range of motion. This you get from developing strength in the extremes of range of motion rather than just doing passive stretching. PNF exercises (isometric contractions at the extreme range) are the key.
Also, CRAC (Contraction, Relaxation, Antagonistic Contraction) is a good way to get a little extra stretch. The goal is to silence the static stretch receptors.
- Bill
I'm a big fan of useable range of motion. This you get from developing strength in the extremes of range of motion rather than just doing passive stretching. PNF exercises (isometric contractions at the extreme range) are the key.
Also, CRAC (Contraction, Relaxation, Antagonistic Contraction) is a good way to get a little extra stretch. The goal is to silence the static stretch receptors.
- Bill
-
RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
Kami said: "The idea is to increase flexibility by using muscle power to stretch the opposing muscles. You do this naturally when you stretch in the morning by arching your back. The back contracts and arches and the belly relaxes, responding to the tension of the opposing muscles in the back."
And Bill said: "Also, CRAC (Contraction, Relaxation, Antagonistic Contraction) is a good way to get a little extra stretch. The goal is to silence the static stretch receptors."
I am a huge believer and beneficiary of PNF and CRAC stretching. However, if I am to believe Brad Appleton of CRAC fame (I first discovered the CRAC concept on his website almost 10 years ago, and it was a breakthru for my flexibility) the PNF/CRAC response does not work for the abdominal and lower back muscles. That muscle group of agonists and antagonists is always in some degree of tension and do not respond to CRAC the same way, for instance, as the quads and hams do.
What do you think about that Bill? Is Brad correct?
Rich
And Bill said: "Also, CRAC (Contraction, Relaxation, Antagonistic Contraction) is a good way to get a little extra stretch. The goal is to silence the static stretch receptors."
I am a huge believer and beneficiary of PNF and CRAC stretching. However, if I am to believe Brad Appleton of CRAC fame (I first discovered the CRAC concept on his website almost 10 years ago, and it was a breakthru for my flexibility) the PNF/CRAC response does not work for the abdominal and lower back muscles. That muscle group of agonists and antagonists is always in some degree of tension and do not respond to CRAC the same way, for instance, as the quads and hams do.
What do you think about that Bill? Is Brad correct?
Rich
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