Chink in the Armor

[Rick Wilson]

Good post, Dana!

Tony: Did you try the whiff thing? Do you feel better as a person.

[Guest]

I think i'm ok now Rick... but you'd probably be a better judge of my character then I would. I obviously would have some degree of bias...

[uechidrew]

New to the forum but I would like to comment. I doubt I know any of you aside from possibly John who I may have met when I was in Largo June of '04, but I feel like you are unfairly picking on him or as they say in the forum world flaming him. Mr. Bronze Dragon you certainly have a chip on your shoulder, maybe you had a bad Sensei or a few but what ever the circumstance it is no reason to bash someone for looking up to their teacher who in John's case is top notch. From personal experience I have witnessed some pretty incredible feats performed by the people in which John mentioned. Everyone has there own reasons for studying TMA and no one is infallible. I have read several threads regarding changing the system and to keep evolving it into something new, so much so as when I watch videos of kata or techniques they rarely resemble each other from one school to the next. Most of us train in the same system so it is my belief that there should not be so much degradation, but that’s just me. If you are looking to fill in perceived gaps in what is being trained in Uechi-Ryu then seek out those training methods from those who would know. There is nothing wrong with cross training but please let Uechi be Uechi.
Now to the subject of this tread, it is my belief that with any MA conditioning and coordination are the keys to making a good fighter. All of the MA training in the world is not going to make some people into effective fighters, most fighting skills come from innate coordination and killer instinct that you either have or you don't. Example : If it was all about the training then the same boxing trainer can take anyone and make him or her into a champion, but we all know there are the gifted few who just have IT. Conditioning is the other key, and I am not just talking about Sanchin and arm pounding, you must be in top cardiovascular physical condition. There is nothing mystical about it. This is why PT is so important in the military.
So I know I kind of went of on a rant but I felt that if I was going to add anything I might as well as say something.

[Guest]

Now to the subject of this tread,

Well, the subject of this thread is "Chink in the Armor". I wasn't sure if that was a racial slur or not until my handle got dropped in John's first post. Perhaps you should re-read it and then put yourself in my flip-flops. He essentially mocked my training regiment using his Sensei and Grand Sensei's technique as leverage. Not that it bothered me much, but where I come from, one good smack deserves another.

Later,

[Stryke]

Welcome uechidrew , hope you`ll post more and stick around

John certianly got some flack his way , and I hope he sticks around .

he however fired some shots himself , thats IMHO the problem with forums , it would probably be a far more humourous discussion in person , and agreement would come easily .

I have read several threads regarding changing the system and to keep evolving it into something new, so much so as when I watch videos of kata or techniques they rarely resemble each other from one school to the next. Most of us train in the same system so it is my belief that there should not be so much degradation

this is the kind of post that can annoy , whats degredation to one is improvement or understanding to another , If folks spent more time learning from others approach rather than labelling it degradation then maybe theyed learn something .

One persons changing is another persons exploring .... how do you understand without expirementation ? .

MA conditioning and coordination are the keys to making a good fighter

they are key factors , but there are many more on a technical and experiential level , and above those things I`d put knowledge and ability to use that knowledge .

If you are looking to fill in perceived gaps in what is being trained in Uechi-Ryu then seek out those training methods from those who would know. There is nothing wrong with cross training but please let Uechi be Uechi.

many do and bring them back to fully understand there Uechi , no one source knows everything IMHO , there are many folks on the forums that have cross trained to gain insight into Uechi , Bill Glasheen is always referencing other styles , Van Canna forum is all about reality approaches and how they fit with Uechi , Jim Maloneys incorporation of boxing type has influenced my training Via Laird my first uechi instructor ....

to say punching kicking twisting limbs etc is not Uechi .. well IMHO it shows a lack of knowledge of the art and the arts . the human body is the only limitation .

All just my humble opinion .

I`ll hope you and John stick around and add to discussion , welcome aboard , I look forward to your insights on your (but deffinately not the only ) Uechi ryu .

[JimHawkins]

Welcome to the forum uechidrew...

I have read several threads regarding changing the system and to keep evolving it into something new

This is because there is little agreement, over the broad scope of those 'doing Uechi' as to what the style is or isn't. This is not the norm in many other, especially non Japanese styles. Given that, it is understandable and predictable that it will continue to change. I would be interested to hear what you or John think Uechi is.

I am doing a little re-reading now on Okinawan Karate roots and when I'm done I hope to have a little better understanding of the history and "content flux" of these 'styles.' The only thing I can say now is that most of the Okinowan styles', their specific intent and training components have all went through considerable changes and omissions, especially from what was their Chinese origins.

Now to the subject of this tread, it is my belief that with any MA conditioning and coordination are the keys to making a good fighter.

All arts condition in one way or another, Boxers, for example, are quite conditioned and even condition the head in full contact sparring. Do you?

So in a real sense 'conditioning' is a generic training venue which receives too much focus in Uechi IMO when all the conditioning in the world will not stop someone from pushing your sleepy bye button.

You mention coordination – coordination of what? One needs coordination for any task but the key is to train and develop combat strategy based reactions that bring all the tools and moves together into a cohesive whole. There must be energy/structure/concept training IMO that offers a platform for teaching the student how to execute not just movements, as in kata, but how to manage energy, time and space, both yours and your opponents. This is where the depth and major attribute cultivation should be, but where is it? This is where we see Uechi folks filling in the blanks often with their own material. And who can blame them if there are blanks to fill then someone will do it.

All of the MA training in the world is not going to make some people into effective fighters

No not champions but the point is to allow progressive improvement for anyone willing to put the time in. The 'medium term' result need not be godlike, but should be a vast improvement over THAT person’s baseline or starting point.

[Dana Sheets]

Rick said:
"And this is where the warning about studying Karate for just combat always throws me a little because that is how I believe people are taught to become better people. "
------------------------------------

My repsonse is that people go to prison all the time and study violence (I mean get reformed ) and they do not come out better people. Youth who are indoctrinated into gang life in urban areas study violence and mostly do not come out better people. Some do. Some see the destruction, the hardship, the consequence and try to leave. Others do not and stay to indoctrinate another generation into the culture.

So I do not believe that getting better at violence will suddenly provoke a spiritual journey towards kindness to your fellow human.

[Guest]

So I do not believe that getting better at violence will suddenly provoke a spiritual journey towards kindness to your fellow human.

What does that have to do with being a better person?

[Dana Sheets]

Because I subscribe to the notion that altrusim is a desireable characteristic..
This is my own world-view. However on the page below is a wonderful argument for why it is only a rationalization as are any set or mores.

http://www.friesian.com/moral-1.htm



or in a comparison study:


Next?

*please note that in the diagram above the seemingly loaded political terms are used in a strict philosphical sense and not in relation to contemporary political issues.

I think I'm tired of making caveats.

[Guest]

Dana, I agree, this is a good practice if "citizenship" is your goal, but what does karate have to do with citizenship?

[MikeK]

I am doing a little re-reading now on Okinawan Karate roots and when I'm done I hope to have a little better understanding of the history and "content flux" of these 'styles.' The only thing I can say now is that most of the Okinowan styles', their specific intent and training components have all went through considerable changes and omissions, especially from what was their Chinese origins.

Jim, don't limit the Okinawans as being derived straight from Chinese roots. I've read in several places (I'll try to dig the references up for you) and heard Patrick McCarthy talk about how the Okinawans were heavily influenced by the arts of Siam. So there may be reasons other than changes and omissions to Chinese arts for why the Okinawans do what they do.

[Stryke]

My repsonse is that people go to prison all the time and study violence (I mean get reformed ) and they do not come out better people. Youth who are indoctrinated into gang life in urban areas study violence and mostly do not come out better people. Some do. Some see the destruction, the hardship, the consequence and try to leave. Others do not and stay to indoctrinate another generation into the culture.

Surely Dana you can see the difference between studying violence and experiencing violence ?

I`d hate to use the strawman tag , but your argument is lets take and gang member(or convicted criminal) who works on how to beat people up , and see if there nice or not .....


I`m guessing there a bit jaded to begin with huh

[JimHawkins]

Jim, don't limit the Okinawans as being derived straight from Chinese roots. I've read in several places (I'll try to dig the references up for you) and heard Patrick McCarthy talk about how the Okinawans were heavily influenced by the arts of Siam. So there may be reasons other than changes and omissions to Chinese arts for why the Okinawans do what they do.

I don't limit, I only read and learn...

So far everything I have read indicates that several generations of Okinowans, those responsible for the creation, of what would later become karate, and who could afford to, or otherwise did so as part of their jobs, were frequent travelers to China. Throughout that period these arts, generally thought of as a homogeneous* and foreign fighting style from China, were called Chinese Hand. The character for China, Kara, that was used meant Tang, a Chinese dynasty, this was later changed** to another similar character, kara, meaning Empty, or Empty Hand to remove the Chinese connection.

There were many stigmas associated with what was then called Te or Tote, not the least of which was that it came from China and consisted of what was thought of as ‘brutal’ and ‘sadistic’ techniques involving lots of striking and kicking.

Many looked down on the ‘violent nature’ of this ‘violent foreign art’ and it has been recounted many times how in Japanese films and plays that the Karate-ka was always the ‘bad guy’ and the good guy was always a practitioner of a pure Japanese art like Judo or Jujitsu. What’s also interesting to me is what many thought of as the ‘brutal nature’ of these arts as compared to existing Japanese systems like Jujitsu, which were thought of a more evolved and humane. Ironic, that I see this same distaste for perceived ‘excessive (focus on) violence’ in the position Dana takes here on this very thread, much like the Japanese of old, looking down on violence and focusing more so on the ‘self cultivation,’ Do or Art aspects of these systems instead of the Martial applications. Indeed this also played a big role in the evolution, omissions and transformation of Tote into a ‘more civilized art form’ - Japanification.

*Interesting that these Chinese arts were not labeled with their proper names. To me this stands out quite a bit. It has been addressed that early on styles did not exist in Okinawa. This is true as these arts were simply thought of as Te or Tote (Chinese Hand) in Okinowa. Yet in China styles did very much exist, especially at that time what I call the ‘super styles’ that were both HARD and SOFT (and BTW those arts may have had an outside influence). But for some reason the specific schools, or style of origin did not become part of the tradition later on in Okinowa. Conversely in China, the origin, family, or style was quite important so this to me is an anomaly and suggests something, what I am not yet sure.

**Indeed to many Japanese, China as a source for a would be Japanese martial art was a turn off.

[Guest]

Check out "Fighting Black Kings":

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0186105/

There is some great footage of Kancho Ninomiya (of Enshin Karate fame) kicking the crap out of some kung fu guy. The Japanese obviously staged it to slam the chinese arts and also for entertainment.

Great movie by the way!

I'm not a big Japanese history buff, but doesn't history state that Gichin Funakoshi, an Okinawan, introduced Shotokan Karate to Japan and that is where Karate began there? If so, then Karate, as it is practiced in Japan today has it's origins in China wether they like it or not.

[benzocaine]

Karate used to be called To te or China Hand.

The Japanes couldn't stand the idea of China being honored and changed the name to Kara te or empty hand.