Let discuss cooperative drills

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jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Well with MA's there are lots of different techniques to choose from :) it's not compulsary to do them all, and acceptable to favour certain techniques over others that's why you have kickers,punchers ...and in every system there are things that you do just because they are there ( although sometimes they are there for a very good reason that you may not know)...........and there are levels of ability, and experience within the system.....so there are things that a beginer may find more valuable than some one who is more experienced. I remember a thread where somebody had a female student who just couldn't spar :cry: ....to somebody like that a first step may be very slow pre arranged drills..but that wouldn't work with somebody else who has switched from kickboxing to karate or changed from another style and could spar from the get go...... :wink:
the structure is there to fulfill a purpose.....they are not designed specifically for you personnally
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Re: You move I move

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Van Canna wrote:
http://www.martial-arts-video.net/2007/ ... odile.html :wink:

No step ...block then bite 8)
I'm not quite sure the point you're trying to make, Van. Maybe you can make it to me, or maybe I will see it another way.

Do you know what I see? I see the kind of Uechi I've been trying to teach my students. The only freeform exercise that I teach which causes people to see the light is my barroom brawl. There the idea of posed, dueling, frontal attacks becomes dangerous to irrelevant.

I saw the light on this while working with Dr. King. He started in judo, then did kyokushinkai ryu, then Goju with Yamaguchi Gosei, then was "stolen" by Kimo Wall ;), and then picked up all kinds of martial expertise before going into special forces. King taught me both Goju and aikido. And in doing so, he taught me as much about Uechi Ryu applications as any Uechi instructor I ever worked with.

There's a story in George Mattson's Uechiryu Karatedo that describes what that tiger did to the crocodile. When I first read it as a teenager, I totally didn't get it. According to George's rendition of the story, Kanbun is walking home from training. Alongside the road in some bushes was a fellow hiding with a knife tied to the end of a stick. As George tells the story, the attacker lunged at Kanbun with his makeshift spear, and Kanbun jumped on his back.

Er... WTF??? 8O

When I read the story, I just assumed Kanbun was some kind of freak, and jumped in the air like a grasshopper. Not quite.

Later on while working with Dr. King, he was teaching the ate waza. The one in particular that he was teaching was ushiro ate. It translates roughly as around the back and toss. First we practiced the stepping. We did it over, and over, and over... And then we learned how to latch onto the person from behind and slam them down. The harder they charged at you and the more gracefully you did the 180-degree walk-around, the more dramatically you could grab them by the shoulders and shake them like a beach towel. In fact... get the timing right and their legs keep going while the head gets slammed down on the ground. Nasty! :twisted:

And then one day it hit me. Uechi Ryu's tenshin exercises - done in the hojoundo and in Kanchin kata - are nothing more than a 90-degree version of a simple stepping pattern. You do the same steps to achieve a 180-degree turn against a bad guy coming at you, and you're on their back just like Kanbun jumped on the hooligan's back in China. And in football, the same 4-step pattern done with a 360-degree turn allows you to spin out of a tackle and keep running. In fact... that translates to self-defense as well. As a group of predators surrounds you, you charge at one, do a 360-degree spinout, and keep on truckin!

Watch the tiger. He does the same move that Kanbun did to the criminal with the make-shift spear, as I did in my aikido class, and as any grappler does (including yours truly) to turn an assault against you into a rear naked choke opportunity. And on that latter front, I'll show you how hawk chases sparrow sets you up to do just that.

My point? We do that. THIS is Uechi non-sport fighting as it was meant to be. The tiger will bite the cervical spine of the crocodile until he kills it. Similarly we can tenshin and use a Uechi elbow as a vise instead of a spear. Leg up and down (as in hawk chases sparrow) is nothing more than bending them at the knee joint so that the angle and position of the head is just so. And then, out go the lights.

Nice video, Van. Thanks for that.

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

By the way...

One day that "Uechified" ushiro technique - and a few others - are going to make it into the Glasheen Yakusoku Kumite. By now I believe I have at least five.

That's all these things are. Folks find some neat things to practice for some specific reason, and they want to share their training drills. There's nothing religious about them.

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

A comment on Van's video site...
Johnnny112 wrote:
The tiger easily takes on the crocodile here, but probably because it has home field advantage - in the water, I will still take the croc.
True...

It's all about who has the best "footwork" in which medium. The tiger is a better land crawler. The croc is a better water swimmer. Victory goes to the animal who sets himself up to deliver offense first.

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Van

I am going to be the last to argue against the many other training exercises you suggest. Same goes for what Art or Rory would suggest.

I think the policy we should keep here is to stay on subject. If George started a subject on cooperative drills (a.k.a. yakusoku kumite), then perhaps we should talk about cooperative drills here.

If we've got BETTER cooperative drills, well... we all want to see them! In all the years people have been asking folks to put up or go home, nobody's come up with anything except Mike Murphy. Mike has a really nifty part-Uechi, part Japanese jiujitsu kumite that he put together. It's patterned after kyu kumite. Other than that, all we hear when people ask for better is the sound of crickets.

I owe the Uechi world... ;)

To YOUR point now, Van... Much of what you say is true. So... When we get a tangent worth discussing, let's make a new thread and jump in! There's plenty of bandwidth on this and other forums for us to discuss good ideas. That way we can get all our ideas on the table, and not feel like we are stepping on any toes.

- Bill
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

I'm not quite sure the point you're trying to make, Van. Maybe you can make it to me, or maybe I will see it another way.
Not to fret Bill, the video is just to have a little fun. :wink:

Again, Bill…it’s not about what you do or can do, see or don’t see that these discussions are all about.

You are not the focus of the kumites discussions, no-one is telling you what you are doing is wrong.

And I am not off the subject of cooperative drills. :wink:

I have been writing all along that the drills are fine.

And you are not going to dictate to me what to say or not to say on any subject matter, the same way that I don't place this restriction on you when you post on my page. :)


You still don’t answer the questions that I posed to you.

1. Rabesa wrote
Although your pre-arranged drills are great for certain things… I prefer something different to develop timing and readiness. I call it “You move…I move” _It not only encompass your ‘reading’ but timing as well.
What’s he trying to say? When I first wrote the quote, you were quick to respond with….no way, I have worked with Rabesa and on and on…and he loves the kumites. Where in the quote above do you see he doesn’t like them? What is his point? Do you understand his point? Do you agree or disagree with it?

Let’s have it…because what I will do is to send him your views or other’s views on what he wrote in his book….so he can address them here through Mr. Bauchnect.

2. Also answer this question…I posted
Prearranged training_ conditions the fencer to expect a certain behavior from his opponent. This expectation is a preeminent factor in the personal evaluation and classification of the imminent combat scenario and in the external development of the fight itself.

Expecting an opponent to behave in one-way or the other is not without danger. Often, being right or wrong determines who's going to live or die at the end of an encounter--before the actual fight has begun.
What is this fencing master trying to convey that may be valuable to these discussions?
Van
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Post by f.Channell »

In a real fight the boundaries are set. This is known as terriorality-the need to demonstrate a posessive or ownership relationship to space. This translates to Dads chair, your brothers room, your girlfriend, Things you know are going to be a problem if the ownership or space rules are broken. we learn this from birth. This is all under the study of proxemics. Animals will mark off their territory with urine, and defend this space to the death.
When you back up in this encounter you are taking a submissive or passive role, your no longer the alpha male. We travel with this knowledge of space all day, for some reason it is thrown out the window in kumite, but not in kata.
Ever travel in an elevator? Those who are the alpha males stand in the middle or by the door, others go to their corners and stare at their feet or the buttons on the wall. You might take back a step, or an angular one, but there's no block only a strike.
http://www.cs.unm.edu/~sheppard/proxemics.htm
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Post by f.Channell »

http://www.basd.net/sports/wrestling/jr ... ponent.pdf

Making your opponent quit takes practice and skill. This article will focus on how you can start to build habits that will allow you to break your opponent’s mental and physical limits, thus making them quit. There are very specific tactics you can perform that will help you to make
your opponent quit, both in practice and in a match.
What does “making your opponent quit” look like?
• Backing up – Your opponent or training partner starts giving ground as you attack them – back
peddling.


As we can see from this article on wrestling and how to perceive that the match is going your way, which surely would reinvigorate your attack, backing up is the first sign of failure.

F.
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Post by Van Canna »

Fred,

Honest arguments is what makes these forums run.

Fred
When you back up in this encounter you are taking a submissive or passive role, your no longer the alpha male. We travel with this knowledge of space all day, for some reason it is thrown out the window in kumite, but not in kata.
Fred, the reason why, in the present format the drills we do are to be looked at as training for free sparring as they were meant to. I see limited street defense concepts in there. Others, can of course disagree, it is their prerogative as it is mine. :evil:

And nobody has been knocking the kumites in this discussion, just discussing perceived limitations as in everything else we do.


This is not to say that the drills as they stand, as they were designed, are useless…they are excellent for a number of reasons we have discussed.

But, as in all things, the drills we do _ can evolve and encompass street defense concepts by introducing more realistic habitual violence into them …more in tune with what is likely to happen to you in life.

Here we have seen some empty arguments that did nothing but create animosities in our family.

For example, I have seen the excellent variation devised by Mike Murphy who has a really nifty part-Uechi; part Japanese jiujitsu kumite that he put together, that impresses me because it gets closer to what will happen in a street fight.

Rick Wilson, as you might remember, put up a clear progression based on the kumites, that is most excellent, and I believe a video of it was being sold on our site if I recall correctly.

Then I don’t really know how _ but communications broke down_ I vaguely remember some discussion about Bill going to post a video of IUKF’s drills variations, or some such thing, but it never happened.

Too bad our Northern friends were banned, because we would have enjoyed some good discussions. Fences could have been mended all around, had we tried hard enough.

Our interest should lie with stimulating our imagination and presupposed knowledge in harmony, allowing a free discussion without the huff, but it never seems to work out that way. :(

For example, I think it would be fun to engage Rick Wilson and his group on his forum on such discussions _ just to get different views. I know he works extremely hard at this.


Also it would be great if we could invite some fencing or blade master to join these discussions as well. Our learning should have no boundaries.

Do you know any blade expert that would like to get involved?
Van
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Post by f.Channell »

Well I'm no blade master but I am a shodan in Iaido for what it's worth.
The first set I learned which is Batto Ho No Bu I have posted here with a true Japanese Master.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcE7zBhv ... re=related

You will notice no blocks and he only backs up after he shakes off the blood and they've stopped twitching. :lol:
This is instructional so he is going much slower than he is capable. Gives a good opportunity to try and find a block.
A friend was at a seminar of his in Japan and said he was an old man who moved like lightening.

I will add though that the blade is moved in such a way after cutting that a block is possible.

F.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

The topic is Let's discuss cooperative drills.

As a Uechi masters (Takamiyagi and Miyagi) once told me, "Kata is kata, kumite is kumite, application is application." I like the iaido sequences, Fred, but that's not a cooperative drill.

Must ... stay ... on ... topic!! It serves no purpose to talk about all the things ANY aspect of our martial arts cannot be, for no one exercises does it all.

At some point, I'll break this off into a second thread.

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Post by f.Channell »

There is no cooperative drill because the aim is to finish them.
Hence no drill.
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Post by Van Canna »

Bill Glasheen wrote:The topic is Let's discuss cooperative drills.

As a Uechi masters (Takamiyagi and Miyagi) once told me, "Kata is kata, kumite is kumite, application is application." I like the iaido sequences, Fred, but that's not a cooperative drill.

Must ... stay ... on ... topic!! It serves no purpose to talk about all the things ANY aspect of our martial arts cannot be, for no one exercises does it all.

At some point, I'll break this off into a second thread.

- Bill
We... are ....staying...on...topic!!

What defines a discussion on topic ?

Define it...and we shall see if there will be any interest in discussing it.
It serves no purpose to talk about all the things ANY aspect of our martial arts cannot be, for no one exercises does it all.
This is where you are totally wrong my friend, because understanding the limitations is to understand the drill.


I would never train with anyone in TMA that can't tell me the limitations in what they do and teach.

Even George has gone on record on these forums to give sage advise to students so as to keep them out of trouble.

It reminds me of the story I told in the past on the forums...about _ The father of a Uechi student _ I got on the phone _ after taking over the dojo from a previous teacher, and combing through the list of ex students _trying to get them back working out.

He was the most irate person I have ever talked to in my life on the phone....as he barked at me ... that he should get a lawyer and sue the crap out the school.

He went on to shout that his boy's ex teacher had convinced him that if anyone, any attacker, ‘violated’ his sanchin….he would lay them out cold.

So the son gets into a fight with a couple guys in a street brawl he could have otherwise avoided, but for the confidence in his sanchin armor, and got the crap beaten out of him so bad that he was in the hospital for three days.

The art of karate is indeed in being a good teacher.

I recall asking Tomoyose sensei, when he first came to visit many moons ago`...this question in the presence of an ATF agent who was then my student and was very much interested in an answer to this question:

> How long will it take for the Uechi student to be able to defend himself in a street fight? <

He smiled and answered
Ha... Van san...wait ten years and then maybe
Well... :lol:
Van
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Let's discuss cooperative drills

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Van wrote:
Bill Glasheen wrote:
It serves no purpose to talk about all the things ANY aspect of our martial arts cannot be, for no one exercises does it all.
This is where you are totally wrong my friend, because understanding the limitations is to understand the drill.
What are you saying, Van? Are you saying that there is something we do in our training that "does it all?" Please tell me what that is. Then we can start a new thread on that exercise. I'm anxious to discuss that topic.

I don't mind being "totally wrong." But I do want to know what it is that I don't know. That's why I'm a professional scientist.

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Post by Van Canna »

You wrote > It serves no purpose to talk about all the things ANY aspect of our martial arts cannot be, for no one exercises does it all. <

My answer was that understanding the limitations of what we do helps to understand what we do.

Now where do you get the notion that I said “there is something we do in our training that "does it all”?

Next you can start by answering the questions you are choosing to ignore…. the questions I posed to you that should be interesting to explore:

1. Rabesa wrote

________________________________________

Although your pre-arranged drills are great for certain things… I prefer something different to develop timing and readiness. I call it “You move…I move” _It not only encompass your ‘reading’ but timing as well.

________________________________________


What’s he trying to say? When I first wrote the quote, you were quick to respond with….no way, I have worked with Rabesa and on and on…and he loves the kumites.

What is his point? Do you understand his point? Do you agree or disagree with it? Why does he prefer one thing and not the other for a different application?

I would like you to lay it out so I can have Rabesa respond…and maybe you and I both will have something new to learn from such an accomplished fighter in the ring and in the street, don’t you think?


2. I posted
Prearranged training_ conditions the fencer to expect a certain behavior from his opponent. This expectation is a preeminent factor in the personal evaluation and classification of the imminent combat scenario and in the external development of the fight itself.

Expecting an opponent to behave in one-way or the other is not without danger. Often, being right or wrong determines who's going to live or die at the end of an encounter--before the actual fight has begun.
What is this fencing master trying to convey that may be valuable to these discussions? Don’t you think this a great subject to address?

Next …You could put up some of your clips as to what you do in modifying the standard kumites and the reason why our standard kumites need to be modified to begin with _

So at least we all would have something to look at and examine the dynamics for discussion.

I then would invite some of our friends who have trained in Okinawa for years on end to look at these discussions for their opinions _ so that we would have some ‘fresh blood’ in the mix…it gets kind of boring after a while to rehash our own personal views on this over and over, I am sure many of our readers feel the same.

So answer my questions and put up some clips. Maybe we could all learn something valuable by analyzing it all.
Van
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