why do I see more style bashing?

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Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

Sigh.

Jim you must think I flame rather easily with a few poor insults. :lol:

The post I quoted stands by itself Ray as verification of my opinion.

The fact that you feel you are on a mission to do Uechi a service or save us poor Uechika from ourselves is really not necessary but it is what I have seen in your posts over the last while.

So, thank you for confirming it to all those lurking who doubted it. There were those who did not believe it but there it is in your own words.

You see I would rather you abandon your mission to save us and just post from your knowledge of all the styles you have tried out off and on.

Those are the posts I like rather than the knocking of Uechi.

You can make a strong point and then back it up with reason such as this post over on

Van’s forum:

“Yeah
I think we all know that .low kicks are the best, but if you have no knowledge of high kicks then they will nail you every time. I was never a great kicker but it was surprising how many folks I could nail with a high fast roundhouse...I even put somebody in hospital with a backspin kick to the head ....the giveaway that I always look for is the supporting leg, I look for which way the toes are pointing, if they are at a right angle I usually think high roundhouse.so I move to the side that his big toe is pointing and attack from there ”

Now folks can disagree or discuss your comments but they contain an opinion and a reason for the opinion and no slam on Uechi or attempt to save us from poor foolish selves.

OR if your post had been this one:

“I wasn't talking about Bill, actually the person that I had in mind has never posted here
The point that I am making ( .and why does this seem so hard? ).is that when somebody makes up a Kata it starts with fighting movements, as with Tai-Chi, as with Wing-chun as with preying mantis. They all start with key component parts.which are then meshed together to make a whole.Now this doesn't always happen. some arts do not have a key stratagy they just train techniques. now Uechi as everyone keeps telling me is a sister art to Wing-Chun and to Mantis, which implies it has similar component parts. I have even said that Uechi has tan-sau i.e. Sanchin and fook sau as in the uechi guard stance, this would seem to imply that it is indeed a similar style to WC however you can't keep on doing these kind of analogies add nauseum without making your argument eventually nonsensical...if it has similar components to WC then it sure as hell doesn't have similar component parts to Tae kwon do or judo or savate or whatever. If it does have a core then simply state what it is”

Then I would not have made a comment because you post an opinion and why you feel that way and, oh yeah, there is no comment about the superiority of WC over Uechi. (Well not overtly enough to comment anyway.)

Again, just like Jim’s post on Mauy Thai, people could then agree or disagree and discuss your rational for the post.

And just for the record I do not happen to think Uechi is Mauy Thai or Aikido or Judo.

I happen to think like all styles there may be moments where they are similar even if I do it poorly.

And, pretty much as you commented, I happen to think that some of those styles share some principles with Uechi and therefore similar moves can be done within Uechi.

I happen to have agreed with Jim’s post on Mauy Thai (or TKD which I studied) and Uechi. I do not see any similarities in the body mechanics and try as we might; stretch as we might; there just isn’t a roundhouse kick in our kata.

You will just have to forgive me for doing it anyway Ray.

And I am afraid that the verification of the fourth form has not happened yet. Yes Toyama Sensei believes he saw Simon do the same form he saw done once over thirty years ago and I guess if that is good enough for you then good for you. It may well be for many. It just isn’t for me.

And one would wonder why the heck it didn’t look more like Uechi but then perhaps that is everything is Uechi right? But then you do not believe that. :P
Last edited by Rick Wilson on Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Are there roundhouse kicks in wing chun :?
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Post by AAAhmed46 »

Im curious however, im surprised uechi-ryu does not have an official roundhouse kick.

Why though? It seems to be the first thing people think about when thinking 'kick'?
Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

And the Kata says --- the why.

It is clearly an imported kick from other styles.

So depending on what style you import it from will depend on how you deliver it.
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

Rick Wilson wrote:Sigh.

Jim you must think I flame rather easily with a few poor insults. :lol:

The post I quoted stands by itself Ray as verification of my opinion.

The fact that you feel you are on a mission to do Uechi a service or save us poor Uechika from ourselves is really not necessary but it is what I have seen in your posts over the last while.

So, thank you for confirming it to all those lurking who doubted it. There were those who did not believe it but there it is in your own words.

You see I would rather you abandon your mission to save us and just post from your knowledge of all the styles you have tried out off and on.

Those are the posts I like rather than the knocking of Uechi.

You can make a strong point and then back it up with reason such as this post over on

Van’s forum:

“Yeah
I think we all know that .low kicks are the best, but if you have no knowledge of high kicks then they will nail you every time. I was never a great kicker but it was surprising how many folks I could nail with a high fast roundhouse...I even put somebody in hospital with a backspin kick to the head P
I'm not sure what is addressed to me and what is addressed to Ray.. I have not commented at all on this topic in the last day or so, nor are any of those quotes mine so I have no idea why I am still being told not to "save Uechi.." if that was directed at me..

Everyone has an opinion...

Don't read too much personal--or anything else--from pictures I post because there isn't...
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

Stryke wrote:Are there roundhouse kicks in wing chun :?
Well, if you squint your eyes and watch someone perform the second form in reverse while standing on a hill and they slip on a rock...THEN...oh wait...ummmm... NO!

Not in the Ip line according to my best info..

But if I was training folks in an imaginary school I would require that they learn the JKD versions of this kick just for "general competency" reasons.
Shaolin
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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

I didnt think so , just checking .

did you learn them at your Uechi club ?
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

Stryke wrote: did you learn them at your Uechi club ?
Not the JKD version..

At the Uechi school, which was really a Uechi-Kan school kicks were a really big part of sparring. The Shotokan front kick, sidekick and round kicks were trained a lot and used a lot in sparring.

I started doing a lot of research and finally discovered the JKD versions of the two main kicks the side kick and round kick which I saw demos of. I immediately began converting my standard round kick and sidekick into the JKD versions.

On an aside: I thought these kicks, and other stuff, were just fantastic and started buying a bunch of JKD books. In one of them I was shocked to find that the writer's phone numbers were in the book... I called up Chris Kent and was even more shocked that he was willing to discuss the material with me on the phone and we talked for about a half an hour.. What a fugin nice guy!

Very cool kicks but I have not used them much after starting WCK so I can only do them at about 50% of what I had at one time.. :( I'd like to get them back eventually to where I had them..
Shaolin
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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Its interesting stuff

they must of came from the the kan part , the shotokan part I take

theres actually no roundhouse kicks in Shotokan kata either ,In fact the side kicks are an addition too , wonder where they stole them from .

maybe not TKD , because they got them from Shotokan ? .....

I wonder how many chinese styles employ them ....

It`s a fuzzy buisness at best huh .

The okinawan styles arguably had a Siam style boxing influence(Tigwa) that seemed to influence there take on the chinese arts .

It`s a suggestion Ive heard bantered about a lot , it is interesting speculation .

the JKD round kick is a great example of evolution and meshing mechanics and principles , its a good tool .
At the Uechi school, which was really a Uechi-Kan school kicks were a really big part of sparring. The Shotokan front kick, sidekick and round kicks were trained a lot and used a lot in sparring.
on a side note , do you think these styles meshed well Jim , or was that school disjointed ? , must of been interesting on a mechanics level , how did they approach a sanchin thrust vs a Gyaku Zuki for instance ?
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Post by Dana Sheets »

Just to stay off topic...
And the Kata says --- the why.
It is clearly an imported kick from other styles.
Hmm....I'm still gonna disagree that everything Uechi is in the Uechi kata. I think the vast majority of important Uechi principles are in the kata...but not all of them.

For example - arm rubbing is not in the kata, body conditioning and hand and foot hardening are not in the kata, both teach important fighting concepts and both are key to success in applying Uechi.

The second drill in hojo-undo is a side snap kick. Seeing how Kiyohide Shinjo and Mr. Gushi use this movement (both trained with Seiyu) I cannot imagine that it is an imported kick into Uechi. However the side snap kick doesn't show up in original three kata. But is one of the first things Kanei Uechi put into Hojo-Undo and Kanshiwa. So since Kanei Uechi formally stuck it into two places (and one of them is even directly after the sacred front-snap kick) when he went about codifying the system he obviously thought it important.

A Uechi side snap kick kick is the opposite principle of a round-house kick.
One goes from the centerline out and the other goes from the out to the centerline (or starts at the centerline and crosses it or both.)

Kiyohide Shinjo throws his round-house kick to the neck with a sokusen. That's a practice I think aligns perfectly with the Uechi principle of using a devasting hard attack against a soft target.

The round-house kick's absense from kata makes it a less important kick - but I don't think that alone excludes it from the Uechi lexicon of technique.

Matter of fact when I go to training with Mr. Gushi in July, I'll ask him about the round-house kick. Maybe he'll tell me a story or two on kicks and Uechi.
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Post by JimHawkins »

Stryke wrote: theres actually no roundhouse kicks in Shotokan kata either ,In fact the side kicks are an addition too , wonder where they stole them from .
I'm just realizing this now.. I take it that these kicks have been around for a while in Shotokan though, when did they appear?

We were first taught the "step behind" side kick.. This must have come from some form..

I remember working the "knife hand block" moves too.. I think it was such a waste as this movement was never explored and think it must have more potential.
Stryke wrote: maybe not TKD , because they got them from Shotokan ? .....
I would best guess Tang Soo Do then... Too fuzzy now but I think the characters of Tang were carried over into some mainstream Karate reference, perhaps Shotokan influence, I'd have to look it up.
Stryke wrote: I wonder how many chinese styles employ them ....
Well I don't recall seeing the round kick in any TCMA form but I wouldn't rule it out.

The sidekick is even in WCK's second form and dummy form. I was never formally taught the secret sauce for this move though that one of my seniors talked about, but I gather it's similar to the JKD method.
Stryke wrote: The okinawan styles arguably had a Siam style boxing influence(Tigwa) that seemed to influence there take on the chinese arts .
Not up on this.. From what I got it seemed that they were wrapped up in the "katas from China" but I'm yet to understand the root or conversion process these katas went through on the way over and why--especially the last rev where Kanei made changes to the kata in Uechi.
Stryke wrote: the JKD round kick is a great example of evolution and meshing mechanics and principles , its a good tool .
For me it was an introduction into the amazing MA mind of Bruce.. He used WC economy on something totally not WC.. I thought it was even more amazing later on.. I also found it just so much fun to do the kick like that.. Not sure if there was some Savate in there too..
on a side note , do you think these styles meshed well Jim , or was that school disjointed ?
Well it's all about the school and the people as you know.

What made that school *rock* in it's own way was the level of contact they used. They used the old school ways and at times went overboard. Still that's what made them--and although a very small school by today's standards the highest ranked Dan was a champion sport fighter, he never lost a fight that I saw and fought point and full contact.

Honestly the fighting did not resemble what I would call Uechi although all that Sanchin work must do something--oh yeah iron shirt.. The fighting resembled more and mix of Western Boxing and Shotokan.. Some went more in one direction than others. The Shotokan oriented guys <me too> fought from super deep stances and a couple had super scary reverse punches and sidekicks...
must of been interesting on a mechanics level , how did they approach a sanchin thrust vs a Gyaku Zuki for instance ?
I have no idea who's hat they pulled that version of Sanchin out of or who did the mods.. It looked WEIRD..! Compared to the standard Uechi version. They also used seiken fists for the strikes..
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Post by MikeK »

Supposedly Gigo Funokoshi came up with the Shotokan side kick and replaced some of the front kicks with it. I've been doing the Shotokan and Isshinryu versions of some kata that have these kicks. Sometimes the side kick looks to be more efficient when dealing with someone coming up from behind (Heian Nidan, Kanku) other times a Okinawan front/side kick seems to be a better solution (Gankaku).
I understand that Ohshima has mostly gone back to the Okinawan style front/side kick in his branches kata. Something about people getting bad backs.
We were first taught the "step behind" side kick.. This must have come from some form..
Traditionally the side kick in Shotokan is trained by stepping in front. I was told one reason was to keep the kick from being turned into a back kick. But as far as I know the step behind side kick isn't in any of the original 18 kata.
Stryke, did you ever encounter a step behind side kick in the JKA kata?

I found a reference in Egami's (Mr Shotokai) book The Heart of Karate-do to the round kick but it doesn't say where it came from. It does say that the crescent kick was for people who couldn't master the roundhouse kick, so it sounds like it was important back in the day. Side note: He used the toes to strike with. I've heard the Siam influence on karate too.

Harry Cook would be one of the authorities on this.
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Post by a.f. »

Dana/Bill:

Here's one for you...the flying knee strike :D :D

It could come from a really in close flying front kick and just hit with the knee.

But as Andrew said: if you look at another style and say "oh, that's here," perhaps you learned it from the other style more than your own. Just a thought.
Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

Just a qucik note no time to read the new posts.

Sorry to confuse you Jim, only the first line was for you, the rest was for Ray.
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