Spirituality vs Religion

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regkray
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Post by regkray »

Hi all,

Le Haggard

We know your studying Philosophy and at the same place as Bruce studied, you've told us a million times. :D

And as you should remember I already have a Degree in Philosophy.

Your not a Philosopher till you got it Le H. :D

So i'm more qualified than you in Philosophy and can quite categorically say it is Mental Masturbation.

I was'nt getting at you Lee H. I just remember someone saying this in a seminar years and years ago, I thought it was funny.

Maybe it's me. :oops:


Keep studying.

RK

By the way do any of you know what the answer to the tree falling over in the woods is. You ain't a philosopher till you do? :)
Music is the space in between the notes
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Le Haggard
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Post by Le Haggard »

yes I know..and also I know you have the quote wrong. But I see that answering such a question would just be "mental masterbation" to you..

So appologies to everyone for my previous input.. I'm new and I didn't mean to offend with a discussion others consider useless.

Le'
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

LE
I for one didn't think that either your input, or the discussion was useless :D I'm a bit thick and I'm still trying to come to terms with a finite infinity :roll:
Your socio political comments seemed to me to be about changing society, the way men ( or some men) behave and the attitude that the law has to women who dress provocatively.......my own view of society is that it is Samsaric ( i.e. illusary) and that's a spiritual assesment....so I wouldn't seek to change an illusion, but just be aware that it was one. there is unfairness all around, and for both sexes, women can be just as thoughtless, nasty,aggressive, violent as men. we all have our personnal experiences and emotional baggage to carry around :wink: .........one thing that I always think about these forums is that we never, or very seldom get to meet the actual people that we are talking to. Some could be awesome athletes, intellectuals in high powered jobs.......or caretakers, pretending to be intellectuals in high powered jobs :lol:

by the way what martial art/arts have you studied....what do you want/expect from them?
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Hey Reg go easy , check your sarcasim , your comments can seem a bit personal , I disagree with your last post entirely but im not going to make derogitory comments to fail to make my point .

Le i find your comments interesting and refreshing , is always fun to look at ideas and other views , I`m always fascinated by the fact that people so apparently different ,when you strip away all the layers quite often you gt the similar beleifs , ideas

thanks , keep posting its great :D

Hey Reg the only thing I know is that i know nothing , does that mean I`m a philosopher or just Socrates ? ......

sorry had to try the sarcasim :lol: no offence
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Le Haggard
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Post by Le Haggard »

Thanks jorvik and Stryke...

I forget sometimes that not everyone thinks philosophy can make a difference. I guess I'm naive in thinking that I might.
jorvik wrote: LE
by the way what martial art/arts have you studied....what do you want/expect from them?
I'm just a beginner so I wouldn't classify it as any particular style. I've done some recreation stuff in the past that translates to some stick forms though, but not official martial arts.

Basically what I'm working on learning is every eclectic, whatever works in the situation I need kind of thing. I don't know that I expect anything though...Its what I'm seeking...Spirituality part of that with the whys?

I want to:

1. Feel Safer; that I can handle situations or at least that I've done the best I could have done in them. That means not being constantly afraid anymore. It doesn't show with me to most people, but I do have an underlying panic, anxiety, fear, terror...maybe just discomfort around people and particularly men from my own history of experiences. I want to overcome that without running away from life or avoiding it....which leads to ..

2. Reprogram the conditioned responses I have from my previous experiences. I get the deer in the headlights look quite often in the bit of training I've done and react in ways that are counter productive despite what I'm learning. Panic response rather than effective one. I'm frequently told to relax and calm down because of that ..which leads to the last..

3. Self confidence and relaxation I suppose you would call it. I want to be able to "let my guard down" once in a while so that the "invisible wall" isn't a permanent fixture but one that comes down or goes up at will. Right now its permanent and no one gets close. Not good if you want to make friends and have a good time....much less try to date....which I haven't done in many many years.......

So for me, its reaching mental and spiritual in a way through being able to handle things physically. Sorry for the long answer..but it's complex..like the rest of me. How about you? Why are you in Martial Arts?
2Green
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Post by 2Green »

Hi, Le H.; hope you don't mind me jumping in with a view; I found your last post to be quite poignant as it encapsulates the views of many beginning martial artists, particularly those with a wish for some security and relief from a past event or situation.

About feeling safer; training is a positive step to this goal, even if it's a false sense of security, which has its own benefits, believe it or not.
The confidence which comes from self-defense training even at the beginning is a great deterrent to trouble. The more confident walk, the level eye-gaze, the calm exterior all warn away a predator. It works as effectively at this stage as later, when real skill is there to back up the confidence.
Ironically, it is the confidence which is your main shield.
And believe me, all martial artists suffer from deep doubts of ability.

Reprogramming responses will happen if you work at it, and there is a major movement (Tony Blauer) in martial arts to develop a flinch-response defense, aknowledging that the flinch is a natural reaction which can be harnessed with practice,,,there's the P-word again...
Mr. Mattson has a brilliant concept in "The Way of Karate" which contrasts the "reflecting mind" with the "grasping mind"; explaining that the grasping mind thinks itself into a trap by pre-judging every situation to a foregone conclusion, whereas the reflecting mind simply sees events at face value and is better able to respond appropriately.
Apologies to GEM if I condensed that too much, but it is in fact a deep philosophical concept with great value in its application in combat, relationships, and daily life.
It's a wonderful habit to acquire. Thank you, Karate.

That invisible wall can become not a barrier, but an early-warning system.
I think it is perfectly appropriate and necessary to have circles (perimeters) of awareness and protection, where you only "let people in" to whatever circle of proximity you're comfortable with.
All martial artists I think have an invisible wall...but it's REALLY invisible to others, thus accomplishing its goal.
It's the VISIBLE wall which prevents social interaction.

Training in Uechi Ryu has been in my experience a way of forming a personal kernel or shell of confidence and protection on the very surface of my body, completely invisible to anyone outside.
From the surface, it extends inward, someday to the core...I had previously mentioned "working in" rather than "working out".

So what you are really doing is establishing a confident internal "base of operations" from which you can calmly and compassionately react to the outside world without the need to overtly exert physical power, yet be able to do so if the need really arises.
That, to me is the objective of martial arts training.
And of course, I hope you pursue this!
Sorry if I waxed philosophical, but hey, you asked for it!

NM
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

LE
I'm in the ma's for a whole host of reasons and many of the ones that you have mentioned :) although, I guess it's a bit like philosophy in that you find that as you go along you know less and less. Also you get older and find that there are certain things that you are no longer able to do :cry: .
or things that you used to do that appeared cool no longer are, high kicks for example, and you become more content in doing the less flashy moves well :D
These forums will show you just how many questions that there are to asked about MA's Van's forum tends to be a bit more "Street" ( Where is Van,by the way), and Bill's because he's got a medical background tends to revolve around health and that sort of thing......although these are just genaralisations and they both cover lots of ground.......stick around you'll learn a lot.....I have :wink:
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Le Haggard
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Post by Le Haggard »

NM: I certainly don't mind but then ..its not my thread or forum. :?

Yes, I want to feel safe and I understand that most beginners do get a false sense of security from MA training. My current instructor has told me that, unlike me, most beginners never have or will be in conflict situations that would use it though. I suppose that is both good and bad. I know what it really is like and I don't fall into the trap of thinking I'm safe when I'm not. But I also have the difficulty of trying to get the sense of security in the first place, since I know that what I do know how to do is ineffectual for the most part. Ok..that's pretty convoluted but the best I can explain it. The first thing my instructor gave me was a 50 pg book or so from Tony Blauer, actually. Also info from Datu Kelly Worden's NSI. Its the kind of stuff I'm looking for...and since I'm going to be in Seattle..... :wink: I have the chance to get it.

You are right that the "invisible wall" I was talking about is more of a "visible wall." I meant it in the sense that its not an actual, physical wall. Its all too tangible to people though obviously. What you say makes sense about turning it internally rather than where it is right now as something somewhat external to me. "Grasping" vs "Reflecting" mind is something I'm familiar with from my Asian Philosophy too, but perhaps not those precise terms. I hadn't thought to apply it here before. Thanks for bringing it up.

Really good comments and I appreciate them. :D

jorvik: I know I definately have my limitations, not the least of which is that I am weaker power wise than anyone I would need to defend myself against. But I'm relatively flexable instead. I believe the remark I have had from instructors trying to teach another student how to put a hold on me is that I'm "just too fluid" for many of the holds to work. This is a benefit for some of what I need: escape methods. It also teaches the others, I hope, what to do when the person's style or structure doesn't fit what is supposed to work. No flash is fine for me. :wink: I am not in it for belts or competition or to look pretty, but for learning survival techniques that I hopefully will never have to use. The rest is just gravy.

I agree the forums are good for the most part. I've seen some deeper philosophical discussions on these boards than in many of the classes I've had. Just goes to show how diversity is an asset, whether from differences in age, culture, skill, education, or whatever. My only problem really is that I'm pretty liberal in my views, something that doesn't seem to be welcomed in most discussions. I'll check out Van's forum too since you recommend it, though I'm not qualified to comment in any way on the technique stuff. I don't have the training to discuss the nitty gritty of how to do x or y or which is better. I only have my own experiences and education to draw on: ie. being a reasonably educated 30something single woman in the Pacific Northwest of the U.S. with plenty of opinions of her own. :lying:


Thanks to both of you for the nice comments. I really appreciate the feedback and input. :) Please keep it up whenever you feel like it.

Le'
regkray
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Post by regkray »

Le Haggard wrote:yes I know..and also I know you have the quote wrong. But I see that answering such a question would just be "mental masterbation" to you..

So appologies to everyone for my previous input.. I'm new and I didn't mean to offend with a discussion others consider useless.

Le'
Hi L,

I didn't get the quote wrong ??
As you say your a beginner in MA's and Philosophy.
Plus you don't spell Masturbation that way

RK
Music is the space in between the notes
regkray
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Post by regkray »

If a tree falls over in the forest and their is no one their to hear it does it make a sound?

I've asked several times for the answer, it is a basic philosophical Q I was sure someone out there would know it?


RK
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Le Haggard
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Post by Le Haggard »

regkray wrote: As you say your a beginner in MA's and Philosophy.
I'm a beginner in MAs...Not a beginner in Philosophy. And yes, your quote was wrong for all instances up until you corrected it in your most recent post, AFTER you posted this comment.

By the way "Your" is spelled "you're" in this instance since its a contraction of "you are." "Their" is also spelled correctly in this use as "there" since it's not the possession of a group of people but a location. It is Basic English, which apparently is unknown to a subject of England.
regkray wrote: Plus you don't spell Masturbation that way
Excuse me. I'm not familiar with the word since its considered obscene with most civilized people and inappropriate to mention, particularly in an intellectual discussion. Your corrected spelling must be from someone with extensive knowledge and experience of the term..... intimately.

I don't feel the need to further respond to someone who has repeatedly insulted me in the grossest way.

So everyone, here is another question. How can martial arts teach women to deal with the offensive and obscene men who show all the signs of escalating even simple conversation into an assault situation?


Le'
Last edited by Le Haggard on Mon May 12, 2003 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

LE
take him to a forest and have a tree fall on him :lol:
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Le Haggard
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Post by Le Haggard »

Jorvik,

:lol: Ew....germs from the splatter!

Le'
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Post by 2Green »

Just a quick comment...our forums get a little heated by times, but we generally keep a civil tone. Any of us should be able to stick to non-offensive language and still be able to make our point: ESPECIALLY if our discussion is on the more intellectual nature of martial arts (which by the way I feel is a properly philosophical subject.)

Just passing this on to Le H. since she's a newcomer and I wouldn't want her to feel unwelcome or unduly out of place among us.
sometimes it takes a while to get the "feel" of a person's style by reading their posts over time.

NM
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Post by LeeDarrow »

regkray wrote:If a tree falls over in the forest and their is no one their to hear it does it make a sound?

I've asked several times for the answer, it is a basic philosophical Q I was sure someone out there would know it?


RK
Several correct answers:

Physics: Yes, it does make a sound as sound is a vibration carried by the air, said vibration being caused by the impact of the tree against the forest floor.

Zen: The tree is an illusion, therefore any sound it might make is also an illusion.

Determinism: The tree was destined to fall anyway so any sound is incidental and not germaine to the argument.

Concrete realism: Sure it does. It falls and makes a crashing noise.

Surrealism: It is now blue and glows with darkness

Freudianism: Why do you ask?

With tongue firmly in cheek (which is not an easy way to speak clearly, I'll have you know!),

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com
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