why do I see more style bashing?

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jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Ok Well I was taught boxing and Thai boxing as Goju-ryu 8O ..and I have seen more of the same :cry: . The point that I'm making is that if I want to learn Uechi it should be fairly pure and adere to certain principles.i.e. the principles of Uechi or Pangainoon or whatever you want to name the root style.
In Japanese arts especially sword arts there is the tendency to practice "Hiden",,,,,,,,,which means if you practice a sword art such as Katori shinto-ryu, you will be expected to learn the use of the bo to attack the sword.because as a swordsman one day you may have to face somebody with a bo or Jo or whatever :D and it is good policy to practise against such attacks and as such you should be able to initiate them.however it is not your art...you are a swordsman. Now with Uechi I can see the same with roundhouse kicks....you have to learn them becausu others use them...and back spins etc.but they are not your art and shouldn't be confused with your art they are "Hiden" :wink:
when they becaome your art then you have changed it and you move along
like Jim's Uechi-Kan :)
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Stryke, did you ever encounter a step behind side kick in the JKA kata?
None that i can think off .

But it is deffinately one of the training methods.
I have no idea who's hat they pulled that version of Sanchin out of or who did the mods.. It looked WEIRD..! Compared to the standard Uechi version. They also used seiken fists for the strikes..
doesnt really sound like Uechi at all , no offence , some shotokan clubs do do Sanchin . Goju , Kyokushin etc etc etc
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Post by MikeK »

.but they are not your art and shouldn't be confused with your art they are "Hiden"
No offense intended toward you Ray, but oh that is just so much BS. My art is whatever the hell I want my art to be as I doubt a BG will call me for using a Hwarangdo technique mixed in with my sloppy Shotokan. Just because the Japanese like to put each art into a nice little box doesn't mean that everybody has to. My favorite way of thinking right now is something the US Marines say, "One mind, any weapon".
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

8)
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Seizan wrote:
You {George Mattson} may well be the last active foreigner who trained during Kanei Sensei's greatest teaching years. And you certainly don't look or perform like an "old man"!
Seizan

That was a very thoughtful thing to say about my teacher. :)

That being said... Let's not forget James Thompson. He studied IN the Futenma dojo for many years (about a decade, I believe). He's a very good man, and deserves his due. We can debate about the "when" and whether or not Uechi Kanei was in his prime when Jim was there. But if you've ever worked out with Jim, you'd realize quickly that he is the real deal. He was in Futenma when many Uechi masters who are now "leaders" were just "other students."

While this is an aside, I think there's something else worth considering. I've had the good fortune of working out extensively with both George and Jim. I've gotten many pointers from both. I've also seen films of various Okinawans, and have worked out briefly with quite a few.

That being said... My personal opinion is that George looks more like the product of Tomoyose Ryuko, and Jim that of Uechi Kanei. They both definitely are "their own men" these days - which they SHOULD be. But the "accents" and the respective individual directions that each took his respective art is very telling - to me. 8)

Yes, George was allowed to travel to and work out in Uechi Kanei's dojo while on Okinawa. Yes, other Okinawans left impressions on him through the years - even Kanmei. But you know... It's not hard to tell which fellow was born in Minnesota, which in Boston, which in Richmond, and which in Houston - no matter how hard they work on speaking the king's English.

You probably know quite a bit about Tomoyose Ryuko Sensei and Uechi Kanei Sensei. The mind could have a lot of fun thinking about that... ;)

By the way, my best to you.

- Bill
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Post by RACastanet »

Mike said: My favorite way of thinking right now is something the US Marines say, "One mind, any weapon".

Here is the logo:

Image
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About "side kicks"

Post by Bill Glasheen »

There's something worth pointing out here.

The "Uechi side kick" in my opinion isn't. It is a front kick. Classification of this as a "side kick" IMO is a misnomer.

What is the Japanese? It is soku*to geri. That translates literally as foot-blade kick. You can use a foot blade for a front kick (shomen geri) or a side kick (yoko geri). On the "fish or foul" thing, the Uechi foot blade kick is really front and not side. If done correctly, Uechi's sokuto geri has no pelvic tilt. Pelvic rotation, yes. Tilt, no. You need to tilt the pelvis (as much as 90 degrees w.r.t. the plane of the earth) to do a yoko geri.

Yes, yes, there is sort of kind of a hybrid between the two. There are no absolutes in the kicking world; there are only principles and prototypes.

I choreographed a kicking form for my Uechi students to expand their knowledge of kicking. I drew from both within and without the style. I have a write-up (submitted to George) explaining the what and why.

And for jorvik's benefit, I use the EXACT SAME PRINCIPLES of energy generation when doing kicks in my form (38 Special) no matter whether the kick in question is commonly seen in Okinawn, Japanese, Chinese, or Korean arts. If that keeps you awake at night, jorvik, go see your doctor. But if it makes you feel better, I told my students not to chose a Japanese name. :lol:

Back to martial arts... ;)

I got a lot of good ideas about the Uechi sokuto geri from working with Mayamia (former Okinawan sparring champion) on Thompson Island. I'm feeling pretty good about what it is, and why it absolutely is "Uechi" through and through. It's like taking a drill and switching drill bits.

A yoko geri is a very different animal. But still, the principles of energy generation are the same. You just use different degrees of freedom of motion to accomplish the same end.

To Mike K's point... Yes, Mike, Ohshima Sensei did absolutely bring back the "Uechi-like" sokuto geri in their traditional Shotokan forms. My source would be Ray Berry, who teaches martial arts at RMWC as well as being an "artist in residence." But it's worth noting that Ray Berry has the most devastating yoko geri I've ever seen in my life. And yes, he picked that up from Ohshima Sensei. Go figure...

Stories of Ray Berry's kicks are like the hyperbole you hear about the old Chinese and Okinawan masters. However I knew Mr. Berry, and he taught me my own brand of a yoko geri. His kick was downright scary.

One true story about him is that he was once found using a football blocking sled outside as a target for his side kick. He was knocking the bloody thing from one end of the football field to the next. And Ray is not that big a man. And yea, the footbal players were "impressed." 8O

So... Was that kick "Shotokan?" Who gives a damn? 8)

- Bill
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More types of side kicks than you can shake a stick at!

Post by MikeK »

Bill,
Just a nit-picky item.

The "side kick" that Ohshima says he teaches is described as...

"Originally, yokogeri keage was the same as maegeri. The only difference between the two kicks is that in the side up kick the upper body position is to the side"
Notes on Training, pg 125

I didn't see any mention of using the blade of the foot ala sokuto geri, but I'll check with my instructor, also Ohshima trained, tomorrow. I've seen how in Shotokan you see a vanilla form of a technique in the kata or kihon, and then the instructor will show the variations later.

Ohshima then talks about going back to that kick in the kata because "he damaged his back" doing the modern side kick. He also makes mention that what we usually consider a side kick was "the fashion of the 1930s" which might give us a clue on when it was introduced.
. There are no absolutes in the kicking world; there are only principles and prototypes.
Yup, then you have the bastard child kicks like the 45 degree kick in Isshinryu, not quite a side kick but not quite a front kick either. But it does do somewhat the same job as the Uechi sokuto geri.
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Post by AAAhmed46 »

Dana Sheets wrote:Just to stay off topic...
And the Kata says --- the why.
It is clearly an imported kick from other styles.
Hmm....I'm still gonna disagree that everything Uechi is in the Uechi kata. I think the vast majority of important Uechi principles are in the kata...but not all of them.

For example - arm rubbing is not in the kata, body conditioning and hand and foot hardening are not in the kata, both teach important fighting concepts and both are key to success in applying Uechi.

The second drill in hojo-undo is a side snap kick. Seeing how Kiyohide Shinjo and Mr. Gushi use this movement (both trained with Seiyu) I cannot imagine that it is an imported kick into Uechi. However the side snap kick doesn't show up in original three kata. But is one of the first things Kanei Uechi put into Hojo-Undo and Kanshiwa. So since Kanei Uechi formally stuck it into two places (and one of them is even directly after the sacred front-snap kick) when he went about codifying the system he obviously thought it important.

A Uechi side snap kick kick is the opposite principle of a round-house kick.
One goes from the centerline out and the other goes from the out to the centerline (or starts at the centerline and crosses it or both.)

Kiyohide Shinjo throws his round-house kick to the neck with a sokusen. That's a practice I think aligns perfectly with the Uechi principle of using a devasting hard attack against a soft target.

The round-house kick's absense from kata makes it a less important kick - but I don't think that alone excludes it from the Uechi lexicon of technique.

Matter of fact when I go to training with Mr. Gushi in July, I'll ask him about the round-house kick. Maybe he'll tell me a story or two on kicks and Uechi.
Considering the difference in experience between the two of us, i dont know if it is my place to say this, but here it goes:


The rubbing in kata is there if you look for it. Look for it in sanchin thrust, and it's there in a shearing motion. It's there is the siesan strike thingys(forgot the name)

As for shokens, they are in kanshiwas and in sei ching.....But are those katas not original uechi-ryu katas? Or was this added in afterward?


So....were shokens part of uechi-ryu but not in kata, or were they added in afterward and were not a part of uechi?

Body conditioning: Seems like every class of warrior has some form of body conditioning from country to country and different time periods.

The samurai did them.

Indian warriors in india had thier own version.

The thai people clearly have it.

Malay people do.


Seems like something that was universally known and not added in afterward?
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Dana isn't far off target, but you do make some interesting points. A stretch of the imagination sort of kind of maybe can find arm rubbing in "The Big Three." Whatever... A lesser stretch then can find a roundhouse kick and a roundhouse knee strike in Seisan.

As for kata, well the "original three" are Sanchin, Seisan, and Sanseiryu. The "fourth kata" - whatever it is - causes Ray to rant, so we won't mention it in his presence. ;) Kanshiwa, Kanshu, Seichin, Seiryu, and Kanchin are all "add ons." But there's very little in them that isn't in the original three.

Here's the thing. I was teaching Dan kumite to some folks today. I tell people that each and every sequence in both Kyu and Dan kumite come from kata. That's what they are for - to bridge a gap between freeform movement (sparring, self-defense, whatever...) and the kata "reference books." In teaching a sequence today, I showed how each and every move in number 6 Dan kumite came from some kata. The thing is though that the pieces and parts are jumbled.

When you look at the "add-on five" of Uechi Ryu, you can find just about every move in the original three. But again, pieces and parts are jumbled.

That's the point! There's nothing sacred about the kata. They are reference books. You don't read reference books like a novel; they are to be used to help you create something.

Being a biomedical engineer, physiologist, programmer, and athlete, it's easy for me to take complex movements and break them up into individual pieces. When teaching something like "hawk chases sparrow" from Seichin (originally in Sanseiryu), I first tear it apart into pieces. I make people drill the pieces. I show them how all the pieces come from Sanchin with the exception of some aspects of the leg movement which basically are Seisan entities. Then I put them back together again, several pieces at a time. I will put some but not all of the pieces together, and drill those parts. I will mix up what parts of the whole get put together. Then I have them do the whole thing. Then I add in the movement as another element (turning before doing the move) and show how that fits in as another element. Etc., etc.., etc. I often mix in showing myriad applications, and show how the applications take parts of the move, or use the move with different intra-body timing. I show how adding in an extra degree of freedom of motion changes it even more.

Pretty soon (hopefully) the student gets the idea that there's nothing "sacred" about just how all the lowest common denominator elements are put together in the system. There must be a logic, but the possible combinations of the pieces and parts can be more than what we see in the eight kata. Then you can add in new movement like a pelvic tilt, and suddenly a familiar kick (a sokusen front kick) becomes a "new" one (Shinjo's famous roundhose toe kick to the neck).

And then someone like me discovers he can do a stronger roundhouse sokusen (deliver more force to the big toe) than he can a front sokusen. That's just me, and the way my bod works.

IMO, you add in any and all pieces you want, and put things together in whatever combination efficiently gets the task at hand done. And you let those who spend more time critiquing than doing worry about what "it" is. ;)

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Mike

The kicking gets complex. You can use a foot blade with a kick that isn't yoko geri. And you can do a yoko geri and hit with something other than the foot blade. You can even do a reverse crescent kick and hit with the foot blade. Right? ;) That too would technically be a "sokuto geri."

Again, I like looking at all those kicks as like pieces and parts put together in whatever way you want.

I talked with Ray Berry about Ohshima Sensei hurting his back. Ray studied directly with him. Ohshima hurt his back doing a specific kata move (start the kick with the foot tucked behind the back of knee) with a yoko geri. That should never have been done. You most definitely can hurt your back doing that. I was pretty comfortable with what Ray described to me. Ray seemed to be able to create a very coherent story for me.

Through the years, Ray would even show me Ohshima Sensei's evolution of thinking on various techniques. Interesting... It was always to some extent a moving target. Wow, what a concept! ;)

- Bill
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Post by JimHawkins »

Stryke wrote: But it is deffinately one of the training methods.
I don't ever recall training a "step in front" side kick.. The "cross step behind" to me is a natural way to get the right alignment going and actually if you put it together fast it flows well, even Bruce used this in his kind of "running side kick". To me the step in front would need to use an awkward reposition to bring the kicking leg around to chamber..if I understand what it is..
Stryke wrote: doesnt really sound like Uechi at all , no offence , some shotokan clubs do do Sanchin . Goju , Kyokushin etc etc etc
THAT'S NOT UECHI!!!! :lol:

No arguments from me... But the teacher did train Uechi.. As well as TKD, Judo, Boxing and Shotokan...
Born in New York City in 1944, Michael Campos began his martial arts training in late 1959 with the study of Judo at the Judo Twins Dojo on 3rd Ave. and 23rd St. in Manhattan.

He served in the U.S. Army as a Military Policeman from 1961-64. After his discharge, he trained in TaeKwonDo under the direction of Master Sun Duk Sung, author of Korean Karate - The Art of TaeKwonDo.

While earning his Bachelor's degree at Albany State University in NY, he studied Okinawan Karate under Sensei Les Mayo.

While training with Sensei Mayo he established the first martial arts program at Fulton-Montgomery Community College in Johnstown, NY in 1969. He was awarded his Shodan rank by Sensei Mayo in 1970.

While attending graduate school at Ohio University in Athens, Ohio in 1972, he trained in Shotokan karate with Sensei Greer Golden. After receiving his Masters degree in education, he trained in Okinawan Uechi-Ryu Karate with Sensei Ted Kresge in St. Petersburg, FL.

In 1974 he opened the Zen-Do Kai Martial Arts Training Center in Johnstown, NY. Since that time the ZDK has developed into an open international organization with members from many styles in the U.S., Canada, South America, and Europe.
Wonder what Ted Kresge and Les Mayo <Uechi Ryu?> were like.. Going by Campos they must have been old school hard core types I would think...
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Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Sorry Jim , I always beleived you did some Uechi type and Shotokan type stuff .

I stand corrected


THAT'S NOT UECHI!!!!

No arguments from me... But the teacher did train Uechi.. As well as TKD, Judo, Boxing and Shotokan...
he sounds well rounded and qualified to discuss his experience on these arts .

sounds very interesting , and explains your veiws on karate a little more
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Post by JimHawkins »

Stryke wrote: Sorry Jim , I always beleived you did some Uechi type and Shotokan type stuff .
What DID I do? :?
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Stryke

Post by Stryke »

I wouldnt have a clue , Zen do kai or something .... The Zen do kai guys Ive met were Goju based ... but more than one org uses that name I think .

youve just told me your Sanchin didnt look like Uechi Sanchin , and you havent seen standard JKA side kick drilling , youd have to be the one to say what you`ve done .

I just thought it was more literally Uechi and Shotokan experience , I got the wrong idea , internet can be misleading .


no worrys , sorry for the confusion ...
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