It's interesting that the same exact discussion is going on in parallel on one of the Russian Martial Arts forums. We are discussing the same concepts as related to bunkai, as well as pre-arranged sets. Usefulness or harm? Those types of questions.
I guess my view on this is simple: what are you trying to accomplish by doing these drills/exercises? Do you want realistic self-defense training, or perhaps to look good at a tournament, or maybe conditioning? Repeating the same pre-arranged drills over and over again and doing them exactly by the "book" won't be too beneficial to your self defense skills. Instead, we need to allow ourselves to explore defense and attacks, vary them, train as many scenarios as possible. Who will attack you with a perfectly executed front punch to the mid section? I have personally never seen that on the street... Maybe I am off-topic here...
I am not saying we should shelf all the pre-arranged kumites and bunkais - no, they are excellent for learning the basics. But we should not "freeze" the picture there, we should be able to modify if needed, drop and add techniques if we have to for any personal reason or belief. If testing in front of the board is an issue - fine, go back to the book, it shouldn't be a hard adjustment to make.
In conclusion I just want to mention, that by far the best two-person set I have done is the "reflex drill". Some of you know exactly what I am talking about, if you don't - come and see David Moy at the camp this year. It will alter your perception of training and put things in perspective. The drills are excellent for both the street and tournaments? Can you say the same about Dan Kumite?
Respectfully,
Vladimir
"Worthless" kumite?
Moderator: Available
Vlad,
Great post. The objection to prearranged work is high and wide the world over by serious students of defensive tactics.
On the flop side, Uechi practitioners seem to be stuck into this mode and it is really befuddling to many of us.
And many of us just don't want to expand our studies and knowledge of fighting dynamics.The brainwashing is pernicious.
Bottom line, do your kumites, but don't make the mistake of associating them with street defense proficiency or you are in a heap of trouble as you will find out when your time comes.
Great post. The objection to prearranged work is high and wide the world over by serious students of defensive tactics.
On the flop side, Uechi practitioners seem to be stuck into this mode and it is really befuddling to many of us.
And many of us just don't want to expand our studies and knowledge of fighting dynamics.The brainwashing is pernicious.
Bottom line, do your kumites, but don't make the mistake of associating them with street defense proficiency or you are in a heap of trouble as you will find out when your time comes.
Van
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Stephen M Perry
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- Location: North hampton NH US
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Hi Rick as I see it there are four ranges of fighting, long, middle, close and grappling. None can be ignored all must be practiced and understood. Most styles ours included have techniques for at least three of those ranges.
P.S. I still cant figure out what people mean when they say something is or isn’t Uechi. Why not effective or ineffective. Your opponent doesn’t care what style you practice. What would Kanbun say if you asked him if something is “Uechi”?
P.S. I still cant figure out what people mean when they say something is or isn’t Uechi. Why not effective or ineffective. Your opponent doesn’t care what style you practice. What would Kanbun say if you asked him if something is “Uechi”?
Stephen, this is what poses a real danger of injury [the above statement] because it causes dangerous laughing fits.P.S. I still cant figure out what people mean when they say something is or isn’t Uechi.
The same people believe that a real fight involves someone throwing a middle area chambered punch from Kumite distance. Next we are going to hear that Kanbun was an incompetent because he did no teach prearranged kumite or some other such nonsense as you see it outlined here.
Use the famous halitosis technique and head butts/neck bites, and they will complain, if they are still around, that they did not expect to be attacked by Dracula.
Van
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Bill Glasheen
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- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I enjoy these discussions partly because I see both sides of the story here.
ON THE PLUS SIDE
I'm not willing to throw out prearranged (yakusoku) work altogether, largely because so much karate out there *****. You can't measure "suckiness" (in ****** units) without a ****** stick. The prearranged venue - like a good experiement in science - holds all but a few parameters constant. With spontaneous movement taken away, you get to see basics applied against an opponent. From there, you get to see if someone can make any of these things work against a few simple attacks, and if so, exactly how. And even that gets interesting, as I can see more than one way to apply the concept of the circle in the Uechi system (as an example). This then leads to good debate, interaction, and improvement.
ON THE NEGATIVE SIDE
To start with, I think we all agree that nobody attacks you on the street with a lunge punch. I know a few Shotokan practitioners who do, and can frankly blow most people on these forums away. However, I don't think I'll ever be attacked by a competent Shotokan practitioner on the street. It's the semi-conventional Western striker with some nasty inside tricks or a former wrestler that'll take most of us out. Throw in a knife, a club, and a chair, and you pretty much cover it. "The attack" often isn't pretty, but then we don't have Olympic judges on the side with scoring cards. Effectiveness is all that matters.
Vladimir covers the "in the middle" part.
Also... Tell students that if their partner does "the wrong technique," that they must respond with an appropriate response or they are even more "wrong." Vary your attacks in a prearranged kumite without warning, and see how the student responds.
Of course this takes a competent instructor with a little bit of imagination. Perhaps that's the real problem here.
- Bill
ON THE PLUS SIDE
I'm not willing to throw out prearranged (yakusoku) work altogether, largely because so much karate out there *****. You can't measure "suckiness" (in ****** units) without a ****** stick. The prearranged venue - like a good experiement in science - holds all but a few parameters constant. With spontaneous movement taken away, you get to see basics applied against an opponent. From there, you get to see if someone can make any of these things work against a few simple attacks, and if so, exactly how. And even that gets interesting, as I can see more than one way to apply the concept of the circle in the Uechi system (as an example). This then leads to good debate, interaction, and improvement.
ON THE NEGATIVE SIDE
To start with, I think we all agree that nobody attacks you on the street with a lunge punch. I know a few Shotokan practitioners who do, and can frankly blow most people on these forums away. However, I don't think I'll ever be attacked by a competent Shotokan practitioner on the street. It's the semi-conventional Western striker with some nasty inside tricks or a former wrestler that'll take most of us out. Throw in a knife, a club, and a chair, and you pretty much cover it. "The attack" often isn't pretty, but then we don't have Olympic judges on the side with scoring cards. Effectiveness is all that matters.
Vladimir covers the "in the middle" part.
MY biggest gripe isn't the exercise per se, but how people approach it. Most approach this material as religion, and develop themselves to be masters of the absurd. When I teach kumite or kata, I don't like lining people up and teaching everyone "the same" unless they are pure beginners. Just the other day, for example, I made a shodan do all dan kumite sequences in mirror image. It wasn't as much of a big deal for me, as I often tear myself out of the comfort zone and see how quicky things fall apart. For this student, it was a disaster. WHAT DOES THIS TELL US? You could just throw it all away and consider the entire experience useless. Or... You could approach prearranged work as starting points, and vary them each and every class. Come up with new spins off the same general material every day, and challenge your students to adapt and get things smooth as quickly as possible. Let them add in some sponteneity at various points.Repeating the same pre-arranged drills over and over again and doing them exactly by the "book" won't be too beneficial to your self defense skills. Instead, we need to allow ourselves to explore defense and attacks, vary them, train as many scenarios as possible.
Also... Tell students that if their partner does "the wrong technique," that they must respond with an appropriate response or they are even more "wrong." Vary your attacks in a prearranged kumite without warning, and see how the student responds.
Of course this takes a competent instructor with a little bit of imagination. Perhaps that's the real problem here.
- Bill
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Rick Wilson
Stephen:
Yes there are other ranges; I would in fact add a fifth range to your list -- very long range that covers projectile weapons.
I agree we need to learn how to fight in all ranges.
However, Uechi is an in close fighting system or would you not describe it that way?
So, kumites that have no infighting anywhere in them are antithesis to Uechi.
In addition from every range you should not only learn how to fight there but how to transition to in close where Uechi is most applicable.
In addition, yes there are many many more, in the Kumites what is the most common weapon used? A Seiken fist – this is Uechi?
In addition (see) I’ll ask if Uechi is what is used at each range or is it an incorporation of another system? Not saying that is wrong but do you use your Uechi to trap and destroy a kick? Do you use the incoming punch as a bridging tool to rip and tear your way in close? Kyu and Dan Kumite certainly do not.
Uechi people solely raised on Kyu and Dan Kumite rarely know what to do in close where they belong. Why are so many Uechika enthralled with Krav Magda, Defendo or even the SPEAR system (although the SPEAR system encompass much more than the physical response) when they already have Uechi? Because thy have not learned to use Uechi.
When discussing prearranged Kumite I would say that at the moment I do not focus on them.
I do have students work on a prearranged movements to learn a principle and (what David Mott might say is the purpose of prearranged Kumites) allow a person to be attacked with as much intent as possible. However, they tend to work off of more realistic attacks as opposed to the never seen in real life step through reverse punch.
I also work my students a great deal on bunkai but the use of the kata moves may be different each time, although the underlying principles will not change, because the attacks change each time.
This is certainly a harder way to teach. To develop (or use pre-existing) Kumite and bunkai would be much easier and take much less thought and understanding. But I wouldn’t discover as much about Uechi that way.
I also work them on impromptu bunkai where they have to use the move from the bunkai against whatever attack comes in. Great way to learn a new purpose for a move and to learn what it may not work against.
I have created prearranged Kumites and modified them to reflect Uechi better and I suspect I may this year revisit them and play some more. This is an exercise for myself to see what principles I understand.
Yes there are other ranges; I would in fact add a fifth range to your list -- very long range that covers projectile weapons.
I agree we need to learn how to fight in all ranges.
However, Uechi is an in close fighting system or would you not describe it that way?
So, kumites that have no infighting anywhere in them are antithesis to Uechi.
In addition from every range you should not only learn how to fight there but how to transition to in close where Uechi is most applicable.
In addition, yes there are many many more, in the Kumites what is the most common weapon used? A Seiken fist – this is Uechi?
In addition (see) I’ll ask if Uechi is what is used at each range or is it an incorporation of another system? Not saying that is wrong but do you use your Uechi to trap and destroy a kick? Do you use the incoming punch as a bridging tool to rip and tear your way in close? Kyu and Dan Kumite certainly do not.
Uechi people solely raised on Kyu and Dan Kumite rarely know what to do in close where they belong. Why are so many Uechika enthralled with Krav Magda, Defendo or even the SPEAR system (although the SPEAR system encompass much more than the physical response) when they already have Uechi? Because thy have not learned to use Uechi.
When discussing prearranged Kumite I would say that at the moment I do not focus on them.
I do have students work on a prearranged movements to learn a principle and (what David Mott might say is the purpose of prearranged Kumites) allow a person to be attacked with as much intent as possible. However, they tend to work off of more realistic attacks as opposed to the never seen in real life step through reverse punch.
I also work my students a great deal on bunkai but the use of the kata moves may be different each time, although the underlying principles will not change, because the attacks change each time.
This is certainly a harder way to teach. To develop (or use pre-existing) Kumite and bunkai would be much easier and take much less thought and understanding. But I wouldn’t discover as much about Uechi that way.
I also work them on impromptu bunkai where they have to use the move from the bunkai against whatever attack comes in. Great way to learn a new purpose for a move and to learn what it may not work against.
I have created prearranged Kumites and modified them to reflect Uechi better and I suspect I may this year revisit them and play some more. This is an exercise for myself to see what principles I understand.
Rick,
What you write is no nonsense and strikes home. Too bad people keep on arguing the point instead of just accepting and doing. Some of the BS arguments you and I have read on these pages over the years about kumites should make the hall of idiocy.
Next you will read that you can learn to block bullets fired from my rifle to your left here [avatar] with your teeth.
What you write is no nonsense and strikes home. Too bad people keep on arguing the point instead of just accepting and doing. Some of the BS arguments you and I have read on these pages over the years about kumites should make the hall of idiocy.
Next you will read that you can learn to block bullets fired from my rifle to your left here [avatar] with your teeth.
Van
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Gene DeMambro
- Posts: 1684
- Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
Only if we hold them up to be the end-all-be-all and the only comprehensive example of Uechi. They aren't.So, kumites that have no infighting anywhere in them are antithesis to Uechi
Echoes are there; some concrete, and some esoteric and allogorical. Point 4 and 5 of Kyu Kumite are examples of using an incoming attack as a bridging tool to rip and tear your way in close, as well as the takedown (covered elsewhere) in Dan Kumite.but do you use your Uechi to trap and destroy a kick? Do you use the incoming punch as a bridging tool to rip and tear your way in close? Kyu and Dan Kumite certainly do not
Kyu Kumite and Dan Kumite weren't held as the paragon of Uechi-Ryu in-close techniques. We have other exercises for that, expecially bunkai.Uechi people solely raised on Kyu and Dan Kumite rarely know what to do in close where they belong
And what's the difference between those combatives and good, solid Uechi-Ryu?are so many Uechika enthralled with Krav Magda, Defendo or even the SPEAR system...when they already have Uechi? Because thy have not learned to use Uechi.
To simply follow Kyu and Dan Kumite, without approaching it by exploring defense and attacks (like Vladimir says and Rick does), doesn't take much understanding.This is certainly a harder way to teach. To develop (or use pre-existing) Kumite and bunkai would be much easier and take much less thought and understanding
This is the reason for pre-arrangments. Nothing more and nothing less. Practicing principles and concepts.I do have students work on a prearranged movements to learn a principle and allow a person to be attacked with as much intent as possible.
Lest Rick thinks I'm dissing him, I agree with much of what he writes.
No, but over the years several magicians have died tryingNext you will read that you can learn to block bullets fired from my rifle to your left here [avatar] with your teeth.
Gene
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Guest
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f.Channell
- Posts: 3541
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Valhalla
Gene,
They had excellent "mushin" and the bullet went through their head.
Fred
They had excellent "mushin" and the bullet went through their head.
Fred
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
www.hinghamkarate.com
www.hinghamkarate.com
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Guest
Van even a good chunk of meat can benifit from a good pounding. An old horse would require a considerable beating to make it palatable. .......I feel the same way about all of these pre arranged kumites, I just can't swallow them, they just won't go down. When I try to do them I feel like I'm stuck in someone's delusional fantacy.Van Canna wrote: how many times have we beaten this dead horse to death? Smile.
I don't want to act out someone elses dream in two part harmony, I want to train effectively.
I don't consider these drills of value,two much co operation is required too perform them.Last time I checked fights are not the most co-operative events. I keep hearing from folks that these drills are great, that we are doing them wrong if we can not find the value.
Well I've yet to witness anyone doing them any different. I see them done faster but I see little else, I just see two people doing a delusional dance. making it look good.If the drill must evolve and be steped up to be effective why is it we never see a demonstration of Kumite on steroids in a dan test.
Kumite on video rocks! You can edit out the poor sequences and reshot them so they look better.
There is some real professional stuff on the market , real slick , performed by well respected and high ranking people.It looks spectacular!
And when you view it in slow motion you learn some of the lessons of kumite drills. You see the punches that would never land, you see the attacker punching to where the block will take them. (no need to block your partner knows where he's going to go and they help you out) Keep in mind these are advanced dan ranks , who I would suspect know how to do it right. All I can see is fast powerful make believe, high speed co operation.
What I see is embarassing when I realise this martial fantasy must be duplicated at a candidates shodan test. Surely we could find beter test material. Sounds like half the Uechi community don't even buy into the fantasy any longer.Some schools train the material to get through the test and then disguard the practice after.What a waste of training time. No wonder some shodan candidates disappear after passing their test. They have caught the bullet in their teeth, they have performed the magic fight. When they reflect on their accomplishment they wonder what they have achieved, have they learned anything or have they just performed the illusion with their partner?????????
(no offense to those who have tested, I respect your accomplishments,I just think we can do better in our test material)
Laird
Laird, your last paragraph rings so true. I've already seen two classmates cease training shortly after attaining Shodan. I wondered why.
I guess everyones' reasons are different but still it seems like such a waste.
Is there a hollowness in the training that nags at them, but they stick it out for the test and diploma...or is the road so long that they need a break...?
Who knows.
Our training is pretty traditional, which I like, but also very non-sport, non-tournament, and very practical-oriented, drawn from the Kata repertiore.
We take techniques and sort of magnify them into real applications rather than performing them robot-like. At first they have to be consensual and controlled, but we escalate the intensity and sure enough, the techniques "modify themselves" to fit the occasion. The ongoing theme seems to be "what is this technique REALLY for...?"
And yet Shodan dropouts still happen. I'm still a greenie and I'm looking at this and going "what is the reason some stay, and some go?"
If this isn't real enough, what is? It gets pretty freakin' real for me!
Some of our bunkai's and kumite's turn into semi-controlled swinging brawls...they don't look like the book!
And plenty of next-day evidence on the arms or wherever.
Can there be a higher level of SAFE, REGULAR practice that can satisfy the Shodan "realist"?
If there were, would Kyu-rank trainees really want to go there?
If we all got the "real thing" in all our training, how many would stay at all?
How many would get past class #1?
So I think that the drills and kumites and whatever are for people like me. An introduction and a path into real-world application and contact.
If they get to be an end in themselves (or wrongly perceived as such) then I can see why that would disillusion a graduating Shodan.
Don't know whose fault it is.
I love this quote:
Student: "Master, I have learned all you have shown me. Show me more."
Teacher: "Show me first what you have done with what I have shown you!"
NM
I guess everyones' reasons are different but still it seems like such a waste.
Is there a hollowness in the training that nags at them, but they stick it out for the test and diploma...or is the road so long that they need a break...?
Who knows.
Our training is pretty traditional, which I like, but also very non-sport, non-tournament, and very practical-oriented, drawn from the Kata repertiore.
We take techniques and sort of magnify them into real applications rather than performing them robot-like. At first they have to be consensual and controlled, but we escalate the intensity and sure enough, the techniques "modify themselves" to fit the occasion. The ongoing theme seems to be "what is this technique REALLY for...?"
And yet Shodan dropouts still happen. I'm still a greenie and I'm looking at this and going "what is the reason some stay, and some go?"
If this isn't real enough, what is? It gets pretty freakin' real for me!
Some of our bunkai's and kumite's turn into semi-controlled swinging brawls...they don't look like the book!
And plenty of next-day evidence on the arms or wherever.
Can there be a higher level of SAFE, REGULAR practice that can satisfy the Shodan "realist"?
If there were, would Kyu-rank trainees really want to go there?
If we all got the "real thing" in all our training, how many would stay at all?
How many would get past class #1?
So I think that the drills and kumites and whatever are for people like me. An introduction and a path into real-world application and contact.
If they get to be an end in themselves (or wrongly perceived as such) then I can see why that would disillusion a graduating Shodan.
Don't know whose fault it is.
I love this quote:
Student: "Master, I have learned all you have shown me. Show me more."
Teacher: "Show me first what you have done with what I have shown you!"
NM
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gmattson
- Site Admin
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From Japan. . .
Seth is now studying with a teacher who studied with Kanbun Uechi. . .
.. One of the biggest influences in my life over the past seven years has been my study of Uechi-ryu Karate. I didn't start studying it until 1995, and it's been one of the few interests that I picked up after high school that I haven't given up on.
Anyway, once I moved to Tokyo I found a dojo that teaches Uechi-ryu. Well, it's more like the dojo found me. I made a post to a web site, and a few months later the only other regular gaijin practioner at the dojo found it and sent me an email.
I've been assured that for a Japanese dojo, the Shinjuku Uechi dojo is extremely informal. It's easy to believe that: there's not a lot of weight placed on ritualistic respect. People respect Sensei Uehara because he's simply that good; everybody trains hard or they simply remove themselves from the dojo. (it doesn't hurt that he's one of the few remaining who trained with the founder of the system, Uechi Kanbun.)
One of my favorite instructors back in Boston is an Argentinian man who, the first time we worked out together, had extremely limited English. Still, it was easy to tell from how he moved and the intensity of his drills that he knew what he was doing.
Taking a cue from Carlos, I have relied on working hard in class to make up for still not being able to understand 97% of what is said in class. But watching carefully and "sumimasen" will only get me so far; the cultural differences in teaching far surpass any language barrier.
It's a very Western approach to explain many of the basic movements in detail. Your right arm goes here while your left arm goes there. The finer points are left for self-discovery.
In Japan, it's assumed you'll pick things up by intuition, simply doing and watching enough so that everything is muscle memory from the beginning. It is not a better or worse method of teaching; it merely is.
That said, in the basic kata, or forms, the differences are very slight. But many of the training drills, called kumite, are entirely new to me. Again, it's important to stress that what is happening in Boston Uechi is not better or worse than Tokyo Uechi. Think of it as looking through a prism through a different angle, and the colors shift slightly in some parts of the spectrum and drastically in others.
There's a lot more emphasis on in-dojo conditioning in the Shinjuku dojo, which actually trains in Takadanobaba. There's more class time in Boston spent on the higher kata. The comparisons could go on for 500 words more, at least.
The focus, the dedication and the determination are the same. As far as those essentials are concerned, there is no difference between the two methods of studying.
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maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
Hi All,
"Why didn't Kanbun use pre-arranged kumite "
In a nutshell the method of training had no need for it ,quite sinply its a totally different training methodology .Any uechi teacher worth his/her salt regardless of the use of pre-arranged is to make the uechi moves come alive at the end of the day in a live unpredictable situation .
obviously I don't use pre-aranged kumite ,prefering to concentrate on by passing pre-arranged kumite ,but non the less I do listen to what you all say on this topic that keeps on cropping up every now and then .
We know that Kanbuns methods were slow in the early years ,and there are are massive reasons for this ,the slow based training would make seisan come to life ,this was concentrative study,every thing learned in sanchin was directed at making seisan work. No expense of energy was diverted from this ,make the movements of seisan work at all costs ,total but carefull transtion to mirrow the partner in two man work ,because so much time as been spent on sanchin ,seisan will come to life quicker the connections are of a binary nature at that level .
max.
"Why didn't Kanbun use pre-arranged kumite "
In a nutshell the method of training had no need for it ,quite sinply its a totally different training methodology .Any uechi teacher worth his/her salt regardless of the use of pre-arranged is to make the uechi moves come alive at the end of the day in a live unpredictable situation .
obviously I don't use pre-aranged kumite ,prefering to concentrate on by passing pre-arranged kumite ,but non the less I do listen to what you all say on this topic that keeps on cropping up every now and then .
We know that Kanbuns methods were slow in the early years ,and there are are massive reasons for this ,the slow based training would make seisan come to life ,this was concentrative study,every thing learned in sanchin was directed at making seisan work. No expense of energy was diverted from this ,make the movements of seisan work at all costs ,total but carefull transtion to mirrow the partner in two man work ,because so much time as been spent on sanchin ,seisan will come to life quicker the connections are of a binary nature at that level .
max.
max ainley
