Judo women have a lock on their art

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HALFORD E. JONES
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TAKE TAI CHI FOR EXAMPLE

Post by HALFORD E. JONES »

:D Most learn the 'techniques' or the form(s) of the various systems and styles,etc. of Tai Chi and maybe, if they are lucky, the applications, and nowadays,of course the 'theories','principles'etc. but learning the movements is essentially learning technique and no amount of Tai Chi theory is going to make you an adept at it! Practice and more practice but the right kind of practice also........ :wink:
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f.Channell
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Post by f.Channell »

Halford,
No translation credit is given so I am assuming Jigoro Kano translated it into English himself. He was a very learned man or I might think otherwise.
It is dated 1937, prior to his death.
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HALFORD E. JONES
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LIMITATIONS ON TECHNIQUES IN KARATE,ETC.

Post by HALFORD E. JONES »

:D Perhaps you have read in various magazines and books,etc. about Japanese karate and so forth. In this case, it would be well to realize that quite often only one or two techniques were taught and that a reliance or dependency on them was prevalent in many schools and systems. Essentially, those schools and styles utilized the front kick(geri/keri) and the front punch(tsuki) or the reverse punch, with usually one or two blocks, particularly the down block(gedan barai) and the upper block (jodan uki?),etc. Anyway, an interesting article on such is in the latest issue of CLASSICAL FIGHTING ARTS(which used to be called, DRAGON TIMES). Some interesting things about WWII training are to be found in that issue. I believe some writers for the old DRAGON TIMES also brought up some of these issues. The NAKANO SCHOOL is mentioned here and it should also remind us that the late Aikido Founder, taught there also. :wink:
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f.Channell
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Post by f.Channell »

Bill,
She's now considered our best shot at a medal.

Teenage phenom Ronda Rousey is considered America's best chance for its first Olympic medal in women's judo, which debuted in 1992. The youngest female ever ranked No. 1 nationally in the half middleweight class (63kg/139 lbs), Rousey, 17, won gold at the 2004 Pan American Championships. Athens success would allow Rousey to follow in her mother's footsteps; AnnMaria (Burns) Rousey took the lone U.S. gold medal at the 1984 World Championships.

Good luck to all in Athens.
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Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

Hi Halford:

“Is the book you have in Japanese or an English translation? Anyway, the fact that the old jiu-jitsu schools focused on techniques or practice and practicality rather than theory should not detract from this discussion.”

Sorry I don’t equate techniques with practice.

To me techniques = IF “A” does this to “B”, then “B” does this to “A.”

To me principles = IF “A” does anything like this to “B” then “B” can do this and it will work because …..

A Technique will help you in one instance where understanding the underlying principle will help you in many situations.

When only techniques are passed on often the principles that used to make them work are lost.

In either case, and in fact in all cases, nothing will work without practice.

At least that is how I distinguish the terms. :D
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IF YOU DON'T DO TECHNIQUES THEN HOW IN HELL CAN YOU

Post by HALFORD E. JONES »

REALLY UNDERSTAND THE PRINCIPLES UNDERLYING THEM?Otherwise,everything is simply theoretical, abstract, and non-practical. The principles did not exist prior to the techniques but rather the techniques existed as the history of these arts show rather well before any analytical studies or formulation of principles came about. The Buddha sat on his ass in meditation first, then he espoused his WAY. If he had never sat on his ass, he would still be IGNORANT! :wink: Technical superiority based solely on abstract principles is not ART! :wink: Kano was a great forumulator to be sure, but Mifune was a better judo player.
Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

Sigh…… :(

Yes, Halford the principles are demonstrated AND illustrate AND taught through the use of techniques. SO WHAT! Who ever said anything different?????? :?

However, if there are no principles underlying the techniques then you have NOTHING. 8O

If you do not understand what makes a technique work (PLEASE READ THE WORD PRINCIPLES IN HERE) then you might as well sit on your ass. :roll:

And just wait a few instructors down your line and there probably will not be anything of value left. :oops:

I am also sick to death of people who claim because we take time to discuss principles and training that we are not out on the floor training???????????????????? :evil:

Since when are these two things mutually exclusive???????????????? :?

Perhaps there are some who cannot do both. They may be good fighters from natural ability but that is where things will stop.

Perhaps there are even some who hide their inability to discuss things in depth by the “hey get off your ass and train” chant. :?

Well, duh!!!!!!!!! I agree if you are not training then this is all hypothetical crap. But what do you do after the training is done???????????????????

Do you stop thinking? :?

Do you stop questioning? :?

Should you never discuss what you are training for fear of growing a big ass before you get back out on the dojo floor? :?

Are we to shut our brains down between one training session and the next one? :?

I find many people who do not understand why they do what they do in a technique. These are the same people I find who cannot shift gears when something new is thrown at them. 8O

So yes TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN but also THINK THINK THINK and DISCUSS DISCUSS DISCUSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

Sorry if there is some passion behind this post but this issue has been clarified before and yet it still is thrown out there.
Guest

Post by Guest »

I think it's prettty clear now Rick. :microwave: :lol:
HALFORD E. JONES
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THIS ISSUE HAS BEEN DISCUSSED BY US WITH ANOTHER TOPIC.

Post by HALFORD E. JONES »

:D However, I always like to start things with the empircal basis that forms most science and invention, not to say, art and craftsmanship,etc. The abstract and the theoretical are interesting and we can all use some of it, if we understand, but my point is that we do have oodles and oodles of information but so little KNOWLEDGE and what knowledge we, as individuals possess, is not fully understood by us. If we combine knowledge with understanding then we may indeed achieve something. This is not the whole story,but you may well know all the principles of boiling or frying eggs and still not be able to do either one! Knowing principles does not make you a great cook or a good chef,etc. and you may make an unpalatable mess of things. Yet, some fools can boil eggs and they have never had a lesson in egg boiling and they can learn from experience,etc. Learning from experience is another way of saying that we find out things by empirical and practical approaches. No matter how many principles and notions you may have about wood,stone, or whatever carving, even the turkey at Thanksgiving if you celebrate such, will not help you very much. The examples of hunting and fishing and trapping,etc. are also great examples of this. Now you can learn from great persons who have done such and such and their advice,based on their experience, is usually technique based for the most part. Now how about bayonet training and so forth? No amount of theoretical principles will aid you in learning how to use and defend against the bayonet. You learn specific techniques about such. The same for other military subjects. The manuals for such come later, the lesson plans later, and so forth. You want to have people know how to do things and their objective is observable behavior rather than didactic exposition. Well, I've ranted enough on this for now. Thanks for your time and keep me posted on things. Halford :wink:
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f.Channell
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Post by f.Channell »

This kind of flew a little off topic.
I'm sure this Judo girl won't be thinking much about technique or principles.
Just whooping some euro-butt.
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HALFORD E. JONES
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I BROUGHT ALL THIS UP BECAUSE SOMEONE HAD A TOPIC

Post by HALFORD E. JONES »

in the Modern Arnis Coaliton forum on bolo classification and I said,essentially, that it matters now whether the bolo is classified as agricultural or warrior-jungle fighting when a group of angry farmers, peasants,etc. come charging after you with either one! Also, the much acclaimed tapi-tapi will not be of much use in this multiple attacker scenario! The forum topics, however, were unfortunately deleted by the moderator for various reasons too numerous to go into here. Halford :wink:
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Post by Guest »

Rick looks like I was wrong :wink:
Last edited by Guest on Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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f.Channell
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Post by f.Channell »

Agreed Halford,
I saw pictures of those guys from my dads photo slides from his 2 years stationed in the Phillipines.
I don't like angry farmers, peasants and guys with any knives bigger than their shorts unless I am heavily armed.
:wink:
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

This really did get a bit off topic.

However I agree with Rick 100% on the principles thing. If you want to talk about it more, why not start another thread?

- Bill
HALFORD E. JONES
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PRINCIPLES AND PRINCIPALS!

Post by HALFORD E. JONES »

:D What is the PRINCIPAL Principle underlying martial arts? Learn by doing! You can know all the principles of rocketry but it won't take you to Mars! You can know all the principles for atomic energy but it won't help you make an atomic bomb! You can know all the principles of cutting but it won't help you slice and dice carrots! You always begin any skill or art or craft by learning techniques not principles and that is why there are beginners, experts, inepts-non-experts, and masters. I am speaking, now,of individual efforts and talents, not collective groups or nations,etc. You are always given an exercise in meditation, zen, yoga, tai chi, or whatever before you examine any principles or notions. To simply embrace principles, theories,etc. is to put the cart before the horse while learning techniques is putting the horse before the cart. More on this at some other time. :wink:
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