Brad may be right here to some extent, Rich, only because those regions are so much more complex. With the extremities, you have fewer degrees of freedom of motion. Once you get to the trunk, it is quite complex. Your whole spine is a series of joints that bend in the X and Y axis as well as rotating. So the body would get very confused if it were wired the same way as your extremities are.
Nevertheless, Kami is telling us from experince that some of this silencing of static stretch receptors can work with the trunk. Maybe so, but not to the same degree. But with belly dancing, you specialize in trunk movement. She would have more experience and feel for it than the garden variety athlete.
- Bill
Belly Karate
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
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You're unbelievable. But I've told you that so many times by now you're probably getting tired of it. Kami, you're a master at translating movement concepts into instructional text. Granted I've spent time doing what you describe here but I could literally print this post and practice dance. Which as we've discussed, helps to reinforce the important and oft unappreciated muscles that make our karate stronger.KZMiller wrote:So that references back to keeping the hip tucked, only in this case since you're relaxing the tuck when the edge of the bowl is low in front, you have to make sure not to release that tuck too far and arch the back. Am I making sense? Kami
Sunday I did some of the hand rolls you taught us at camp to stretch after working out. That looked so good I started doing the full, graceful arm movements. Then I was wishing I was closer to Oregon
Rib cage isolations seem to leave many people frustrated. What do you find helps students the most? Repetition, very slow instruction... and how important is this movement for belly dancing?
You guys are so nice to me!
I may be unconsciously doing strange things in my belly and back. Belly, back and side musculature is very complex indeed. I hadn't thought about the fact that I may feel it or manipulate it differently than other people.
We'll have to judge for ourselves about PNF factors in torso stretching. Something that might help increase awareness in the ab area and teach you to manipulate and isolate the muscles like I do is a kind of muscular exploration of the belly. Make sure you're warmed up first as some of these are intense. Stand and stretch like you would in the morning, with a back arch (remember to protect the low back by tucking the hips slightly) and arms above your head with one hand gripping the opposite wrist. Now lift your rib cage if it isn't lifted fully already, careful not to over-arch your back. Now, deliberately relax your belly out like you want to look pregnant. Then pull it in against your spine and up as if you're trying to ****** it up under your ribs to emphasize the difference. Play with that in and out motion. Where do you guys feel the stretch? Is it something that strains your back? What if you push the belly out with force rather than deliberate relaxation? What if you lift one side of the ribs and keep the other side of the body relaxed, like you're arching lopsided? What if you lower your arms and lift your chest very high, then arch back? Do any of those stretches seem to have a PNF effect for you? Then play with the belly while laying on the floor on your back. Lots of things change. I find that I must use tension to get a satisfying stretch while the upper body weight is supported by the head. While horsing around trying to get a stretch, and pushing the belly in and out, you should discover all kinds of neat things (that, incidentally, works into a crawling belly roll done on your back, among other movements.) What happens when you're on your belly and grab your ankles to stretch the belly? What happens when you use the shoulder and leg muscles to increase the stretch? What happens if you tighten your back muscles? I'd love to hear your observations.
I think PNF effects may be lost or muddied because generally speaking our backs are too weak to support the weight of the torso when arching back and we use belly tension to keep from injuring ourselves. We also tend to ****** our bellies in all the time. Not sure why that is, why we have to force ourselves to let it all hang out.
I'm hoping Roz will be able to hop on board here with what helped her the most with rib isolations. Like with a lot of belly dance, rib isolations ultimately refer back to activity in the belly. When I start people out I want them to focus on the illusion of the rib slide, more of an aesthetic so when they pour on the pressure they don't lose form. What I focus most on in my own dance, since the form is automatic for me, is generating power in the side opposite the direction the ribs are going. So if my ribs are traveling to the right, on the low left side and low left back I'm generating force while simultaneously making sure that the muscles in the front of the hip are relaxed enough to stretch to give me max flexibility. I also relax the belly when I'm in transition and tighten as I reach the limit of my slide. This is a really easy way to strain or pull those small muscles in your hips so be careful! Maybe Bill can let us know what those muscles are called. I know they'd be almost impossible to describe to a doctor if I had to tell him what muscle I pulled.
They seem to attach at the points on the front of the pelvis. Anyway, I think it's also important to remember that the rib slide is not a straight across movement as far as your body is concerned. That's the illusion you're creating with the ribs and shoulders, but your spine is making a graceful curve and your muscles are working on a diagonal. I think that's why it's such an integral part of belly dance. You need that diagonal torso strength and flexibility, and not just for rib slides.
To get the most out of the movement, rib isolations, like all belly dance isolations, have to be really clear. If you're sliding side to side, you don't want to muddy the water by drifting to the front or back with your movement. You want the path that the ribs travel to be the same path each time, and side to side only.
I hope that's helpful.
Kami
I may be unconsciously doing strange things in my belly and back. Belly, back and side musculature is very complex indeed. I hadn't thought about the fact that I may feel it or manipulate it differently than other people.
We'll have to judge for ourselves about PNF factors in torso stretching. Something that might help increase awareness in the ab area and teach you to manipulate and isolate the muscles like I do is a kind of muscular exploration of the belly. Make sure you're warmed up first as some of these are intense. Stand and stretch like you would in the morning, with a back arch (remember to protect the low back by tucking the hips slightly) and arms above your head with one hand gripping the opposite wrist. Now lift your rib cage if it isn't lifted fully already, careful not to over-arch your back. Now, deliberately relax your belly out like you want to look pregnant. Then pull it in against your spine and up as if you're trying to ****** it up under your ribs to emphasize the difference. Play with that in and out motion. Where do you guys feel the stretch? Is it something that strains your back? What if you push the belly out with force rather than deliberate relaxation? What if you lift one side of the ribs and keep the other side of the body relaxed, like you're arching lopsided? What if you lower your arms and lift your chest very high, then arch back? Do any of those stretches seem to have a PNF effect for you? Then play with the belly while laying on the floor on your back. Lots of things change. I find that I must use tension to get a satisfying stretch while the upper body weight is supported by the head. While horsing around trying to get a stretch, and pushing the belly in and out, you should discover all kinds of neat things (that, incidentally, works into a crawling belly roll done on your back, among other movements.) What happens when you're on your belly and grab your ankles to stretch the belly? What happens when you use the shoulder and leg muscles to increase the stretch? What happens if you tighten your back muscles? I'd love to hear your observations.
I think PNF effects may be lost or muddied because generally speaking our backs are too weak to support the weight of the torso when arching back and we use belly tension to keep from injuring ourselves. We also tend to ****** our bellies in all the time. Not sure why that is, why we have to force ourselves to let it all hang out.
I'm hoping Roz will be able to hop on board here with what helped her the most with rib isolations. Like with a lot of belly dance, rib isolations ultimately refer back to activity in the belly. When I start people out I want them to focus on the illusion of the rib slide, more of an aesthetic so when they pour on the pressure they don't lose form. What I focus most on in my own dance, since the form is automatic for me, is generating power in the side opposite the direction the ribs are going. So if my ribs are traveling to the right, on the low left side and low left back I'm generating force while simultaneously making sure that the muscles in the front of the hip are relaxed enough to stretch to give me max flexibility. I also relax the belly when I'm in transition and tighten as I reach the limit of my slide. This is a really easy way to strain or pull those small muscles in your hips so be careful! Maybe Bill can let us know what those muscles are called. I know they'd be almost impossible to describe to a doctor if I had to tell him what muscle I pulled.
They seem to attach at the points on the front of the pelvis. Anyway, I think it's also important to remember that the rib slide is not a straight across movement as far as your body is concerned. That's the illusion you're creating with the ribs and shoulders, but your spine is making a graceful curve and your muscles are working on a diagonal. I think that's why it's such an integral part of belly dance. You need that diagonal torso strength and flexibility, and not just for rib slides.To get the most out of the movement, rib isolations, like all belly dance isolations, have to be really clear. If you're sliding side to side, you don't want to muddy the water by drifting to the front or back with your movement. You want the path that the ribs travel to be the same path each time, and side to side only.
I hope that's helpful.
Kami
One seed, many lives.
I was practicing shoulder shimmies yesterday and remembered one aspect of the class at the camp that I haven't mentioned yet.
The dance version of the shoulder shimmy is not intended to jiggle your endowments, though if it happens you shouldn't stress about it unless you're a man. Initial part of practice involves learning the muscles involved and getting a feel for the isolation. We do this by 'punching' forward with our shoulder, leaving the arm loose either straight down by your side or bent in a loose chamber with your fist near your waist. The trick, then, is to get that same feeling of snap when you alternate shoulders instead of immediately going into the relaxed move-countermove swaying or jiggling we normally associate with bump and grind dancers. This practice movement is quite jerky and not meant to be a performance move but it should teach you to feel the which muscles are required to move your shoulder with power and snap forward.
When you actually shimmy for dance you lift your arms just under shoulder height and extended out to the sides, allowing the collarbones to support the majority of the weight of the arms as if it were a suspension bridge. Activate the same shoulder muscles you used in the practice shimmy and, instead of stopping at the end of the 'punch', twitch the shoulder back into place while punching with the other shoulder. The hands remain stationary. You keep the movement small. Going too far forward with the movement before you've learned the control will make it jerky and awkward because you're overextended. As the muscles develop and learn you can make the movement bigger while maintaining some semblence of grace.
This movement should be reminiscent of punching out with one hand while pulling the other into chamber. You don't, after punching, let your hand slop back or just drop, right? And you don't just toss it out there, right?
This is what makes learning the shoulder shimmy valuable to martial arts. You learn awareness of the shouldern muscles in a new way, and evaluate a movement closely related to punching that is not precisely punching to deepen your knowledge of both movements. Also, control of these shoulder muscles will help to keep you from telegraphing. Strengthening the structure of the shoulder may help stabilize punches and give them extra structural connection to the body so that the power in the body transfers through to the hand more efficiently. Yet another benefit of learning, observing and playing with the shoulder shimmy is that you will have a better understanding of what instructors mean when they say you're 'throwing your shoulder'. During a punch you shouldn't throw your shoulder (punch with your shoulder, bringing it forward as you do in a shimmy) even though it seems to give you more power. It will steal power as your joint is extended beyond the point of ideal strength and doesn't have the full support/connection to the body. It's similar to the alignment problem of holding your shoulders too high, but in a forward direction.
Kami
The dance version of the shoulder shimmy is not intended to jiggle your endowments, though if it happens you shouldn't stress about it unless you're a man.
Initial part of practice involves learning the muscles involved and getting a feel for the isolation. We do this by 'punching' forward with our shoulder, leaving the arm loose either straight down by your side or bent in a loose chamber with your fist near your waist. The trick, then, is to get that same feeling of snap when you alternate shoulders instead of immediately going into the relaxed move-countermove swaying or jiggling we normally associate with bump and grind dancers. This practice movement is quite jerky and not meant to be a performance move but it should teach you to feel the which muscles are required to move your shoulder with power and snap forward. When you actually shimmy for dance you lift your arms just under shoulder height and extended out to the sides, allowing the collarbones to support the majority of the weight of the arms as if it were a suspension bridge. Activate the same shoulder muscles you used in the practice shimmy and, instead of stopping at the end of the 'punch', twitch the shoulder back into place while punching with the other shoulder. The hands remain stationary. You keep the movement small. Going too far forward with the movement before you've learned the control will make it jerky and awkward because you're overextended. As the muscles develop and learn you can make the movement bigger while maintaining some semblence of grace.
This movement should be reminiscent of punching out with one hand while pulling the other into chamber. You don't, after punching, let your hand slop back or just drop, right? And you don't just toss it out there, right?
This is what makes learning the shoulder shimmy valuable to martial arts. You learn awareness of the shouldern muscles in a new way, and evaluate a movement closely related to punching that is not precisely punching to deepen your knowledge of both movements. Also, control of these shoulder muscles will help to keep you from telegraphing. Strengthening the structure of the shoulder may help stabilize punches and give them extra structural connection to the body so that the power in the body transfers through to the hand more efficiently. Yet another benefit of learning, observing and playing with the shoulder shimmy is that you will have a better understanding of what instructors mean when they say you're 'throwing your shoulder'. During a punch you shouldn't throw your shoulder (punch with your shoulder, bringing it forward as you do in a shimmy) even though it seems to give you more power. It will steal power as your joint is extended beyond the point of ideal strength and doesn't have the full support/connection to the body. It's similar to the alignment problem of holding your shoulders too high, but in a forward direction.
Kami
One seed, many lives.
