Titles.....?

[2Green]

I have a feeling that a true "grandmaster" would never refer to him/herself as such, but his/her students would.
It has been my experience that many of the most knowledgeable and accomplished persons are also the most personable and somewhat self-effacing, exuding a love for what they do rather than a "demand" for "respect".
I believe Mr. Glasheen pointed this out in his post as well.

NM

[Harry Cook]

I think the use of professor actually derives from the French for teacher. France was one of the first European nations to acquire and promote Japanese martial arts (and of course they had Boxe Francaise). It was normal for a French martial arts teacher to be known as 'professor' and the use spread to anyone teaching ju-jutsu etc, French or not.
This was reinforced by the use of the term by snake oil salesmen, circus and carnival promoters etc etc.
Harry Cook

[Bill Glasheen]

Very interesting, Harry. I never would have guessed that.

My advisor and his wife (Ernst and Francoise Attinger) in graduate school were both on my dissertation committee. He was Swiss and she was French through and through. Interestingly enough, he took titles and the respect they deserved VERY seriously. As an aside...he was an MD/PhD, and said that the Swiss and Germans valued the latter more than the former. Go figure...just the opposite on this side of the pond.

Perhaps Ernst's severe views were a Swiss/German thing. She on the other hand was so personable and beloved in our department that the grad students nicknamed her "the department mom."

Next time I visit them, I'll have to ask them about this topic. I'm sure they'd have some interesting thoughts to share.

- Bill

[JaySal]

Hi Bill:

I find this thread very intresting. I have always enjoyed learning about martial art history. Could you please tell me what the logo you have on next to your name means? The one I am refering to is the almost closed circle with the dot in the middle. Is this related to martial art history in some way?

Thanks - Jay

[f.Channell]

The originator of the Dan system Jigoro Kano, had 12 dan ranks.
He never gave out more than 10th.
He never called himself any rank that I know of.
There is no one above 9th in Judo in the world today.
Sensei Fukudo living in California is over 90 years old, still teaching, began training as a young woman, and is still a ninth.
There are other 9th Dans but she is a good example.

I have a self proclaimed 10th dan grandmaster teaching in the next town.
Makes me want to puke.
F.

[f.Channell]

Jay,
Bills Kanji is a "Wa" which is one of the most difficult to paint.
I painted one once with a Uechi symbol in the middle.

The dot I'm sure has a more symbolic meaning.
I can't remember what the dot symbol is called.
F.

[Stryke]

I think Funikoshi never promoted anyone above 4th dan

I think it possibly may have been fifth or he held that rank for himself

Is interesting stuff

[Van Canna]

Some people are rank hunters. We have had some ugly examples of this in our own house.

Could be because _ it is one good way to generate the last glitter [sun rays bouncing off the golden stripes] as their asses get lowered into the ground by the extra long black belts. Smile...

[Redbeard]

In my opinion, rank has some useful qualities---

It indicates (in some sence) time spent in the art and is a measure and reward for accomplishments

Rank in martial arts is a tool for teaching and class orginization. Rank, if used effectively, should let you know who in class knows more (or less) than you do. This enables us to seek or offer help. It could be reasonably argued that this would be evident without a belt system.

I am sure I could think of more if I had the time, but these are, in my opinion, the biggies

Does rank have to do with who can beat the tar out of who? It is a general indicator, but rank doesnt always equal skill or ability.

Titles are a funny thing. You can often tell alot about a person by the way they introduce themselves or by what they want to be called, though this is not always the case.

I see this quite a bit in my line of work too. When someone comes to visit our church, I introduce myself as Ethan, one of the Ministers of the Church. I know I am no better than anyone else who steps through the door, and I want people to feel comfortable around me.

I don't like being called Pastor or Reverand, etc, but don't immediatly correct anyone who addresses me by these terms either, because that just might be the way they are used to addressing a Preacher.

When I am visiting another church, I can often tell if the Preacher of the church thinks he deserves some sort of special respect because of his position by the way he introduces himself. We don't, we are just people like everyone else.

If I was going to go nutty and start my own cult, I could call myself Supreme Minister, Grand Popedaddy, or whatever else I wanted too, and the same is true in Martial Arts. Maybe I could teach Uechi and add an axe kick or a donkey punch and rename the style and be the new "Grandmaster" of the style.

I think we should all make ourselves remember that despite rank or title, we are all students. Even those of us who teach are learning loads of stuff by teaching. Learning is a gift to ourselves, teaching is a gift to ourselves and others.

[Guest]

Marcus these blokes got it all wrong any decent guro swami high mucky much daddyoh samma knows it aint about the stripes on the belt it's the size of your head band.

Swollen ego's need to wrap the head tightly to stop them from swelling as well.

No offence to any of you 24th dan or 48th dan high mucky mucks!

[Stryke]

Hey Laird I managed to refrain from the 24th dan .....

I wonder how that headband would go with a black gi ?

[Mills75]

I decided tonight I will become the founder of TAKEURDO or pronounced Take Your Dough lol..some of the replies in fun of course are really funny I especially like the big headband idea lol.I will become 95th Double Dog Dan..lol..In this style you won't kick or punch .in fact the only technique will be the outstreched hand in order to take the cash away from your opponent lol...then the only other technique is quickly turn and run lol..

Mills

[Harry Cook]

Re the comment that Funakoshi did not promote above 4th dan and may have been a 5th dan himself. There are said to be a number of 5th dan certificates signed by Gichin Funakoshi, certainly Harada sensei (Shotokai) has published his, so we know that exists.
As far as I know Gichin Funakoshi held no grades - as he instituted the system in karate, who could have graded him? It is said he was awarded an honorary dan grade from the Kodokan but the evidence seems sparse at best.
Harry Cook

[Topos]

Bill,


Many thanks for the hilarious comic relief. After 12 hours of research my bleary eyes were rejuvenated. "Groin pounding and rubbing" makes a vas deferens in who is doing the teaching. Not only does the student see stars but hears thundering into his ears Urethra Franklin singing "Whole lot of shaking going on" or "Genitals on My Mind". [grin]

On the discovery channel that reprised Karate (giving master Toyama less than 5 secs.) they spent a great deal of time on a style which practiced your secret elephantine skills, including punching into the throat. The woman who 'passed the test' and nearly out, was helped back to her senses by a few students while the 'sensei' smiled on.

In my Mad Comic mind set I saw him dragged to Van's super secret course: 'learn to stop a 230 gr. ACP' kata.

[MikeK]

Juko Kai!!! I like the guy that took one to his junk and limped off in what to me looked like pain. It could have just been a ki overload.