Traditions Enforced?

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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

But what is "traditional" for a karate school? Or more appropriately, whose standards of tradition are we following? Chinese? Okinawan? Japanese? American (or European, or western)?

Karate is Okinawan in origin, developing from a mixing of Okinawan Te and Chinese Quanfa. Some styles, like Uechi Ryu, are more heavily Chinese influenced. By the 1930s there were also Japanese influences making their way into karate training.

The dojo concept and design also tends to be Japanese. From the various writings about karate schools 100+ years ago, tradition would appear to have been training in the teacher's back yard. Pretty common in China too it seems.

We utilize a uniform and belt-ranking system borrowed from Japanese judo. Check out George's books (among others) for pictures of what students in Okinawa wore while training before the dogi was adopted...think of how your students would react to you trying to enforce that tradition! :lol: Uniforms are fairly new to Chinese martial arts as well, traditionally most people seem to have simply trained in whatever they were wearing at the time. I suspect that was once common schools on Okinawa as well.

As was mentioned above, the clapping and bowing ritual (not to mention seiza) come from Japan and Shintoism. Historically Okinawa has been more influenced by Taoism and Confucianism, and to a lesser extent Buddhism, but not as much by Shintoism. Most of the educated karate practitioners in the 1800s were schooled in the writings of Lao Tsu and Confucius. The Shinto influence coincided with the increased control of Okinawa by Japan starting in the late 1800s.

Not exactly a lot of pictures on Okinawa a century or so ago either, although I believe it was common on Okinawa for most households to have family shrines to honor deceased family members. My understanding is that if a student wanted the spirits of deceased teachers to watch you, you went to their tombs, paid your respects, and demonstrated your skills there, most often privately.

The dojo and dogi, while starting to make appearances in the 1920s and 1930s, really seem to have taken off post-WWII when karate became a Japanese phenomenon. I think it fair to say that the traditions we currently have for a shomen with pictures, as well as clapping and bowing to those pictures, appeared at the same time.

So in 2005, the "traditional" Uechi Ryu practioners train in a Chinese style modified by Okinawan and Japanese training influences, in a Japanese-style room/building, while wearing Japanese-style uniforms, and practicing Japanese rituals.

So again, what is traditional for a karate school and by whose standards? And if karate can be so heavily modified by Japanese culture when the Japanese adopted it, why can it not be modified by American culture when taught here?
Glenn
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

And Why indeed should certain "Christian fundamentalists" object to such stuff :? ...given that the "confession" was taken from heretics in the 13th Century......and for over a thousand years folks got on without it...that the Virgin Mary was not a prominent figure in the religion until the 10 th Century in Byzantium....and that folks are told in a court of law to "swear on the Bible" when Jesus says to swear on things is "born of evil" ( Matthew)...............seems folks are very keen to uphold a religion that they know nothing about :lol:
KerryM
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Post by KerryM »

hmmm-

[quote]So again, what is traditional for a karate school and by whose standards? And if karate can be so heavily modified by Japanese culture when the Japanese adopted it, why can it not be modified by American culture when taught here?
[/quote]

well to answer those questions- despite who modified what to create "Uechi-Ryu"- since that is the style I teach- I want to go with "their"- Uechi- traditions for my dojo-

I would not want to- as an american- teach a style I felt the need to change-

In fact- I do practice outside and in the forest quite often as weather permitts :) :) :) It's highly recommended in our schools :)

As an American "teaching" the Uechi style therefore- I would want to go with whatever the Uechi- dojo goes with.

I'll be an "american" practicing and teaching the style- but the style should remian in tact-

rituals and all-

in my own view - :)

Excellent post to read there Glann thank you! :)

I guess what it really comes down to it sounds like- is what we believe is okay for our school right? And if we choose to make a big issue with the students who wish not to clap then it will be a big deal. If we don't respond and make a big deal about it.... then it won't be.... right?

I don't want it to be a big deal, but at the same time, if people ask about it- I will explain it truthfuly.- so as long as respect "IS" given to the Uechi's and the style in whatever way each student feels they are doing that-

Then it will be all good- though the class will take the moment to clap- students can not if that's what they choose. But as a "rule" the traditions- however they came about- will continue :)



Kerry
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TSDguy
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Post by TSDguy »

It's all a bunch of garbage. People practicing Uechi in Okinawa counted in Japanese-- that was their language! But none of these things, counting in another language, bowing, etc. are martial arts traditions. We should count in English or Spanish etc. We should wear whatever we feel like, we should shake hands instead of bowing.

It's like saying I went to teach math to aliens that walked on all fours and making them walk upright only in math class because I do.

Carrying on the oriental ways of doing things is just another way of trying to make martial arts some sort of ancient asian magic.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

TSDguy wrote: we should shake hands instead of bowing
I agreed with everything you said up to this point.

In my opinion...

1) Rituals of some type are important. It matters not what they are (hand shakes, bows, tapping gloves together, clapping to pictures, addressing the head of class as sensei, coach, professor, doctor, etc.). The bottom line is this - rituals are important.

2) WHICH rituals are instituted is the only issue. Ultimately that is the decision of the leader of a school.

3) Some Asian rituals make sense. Trust me on this one. I spent 14 years teaching Uechi classes of 40 or more sweaty college kids. I tested many sanchins, and had their sweat and other body thingies all over me. I've caught colds, influenza, staph infection, body lice, scabies, foot fungus, warts, etc. from these college kids that stay up all night, and have intimate contact with god knows whom. At the end of the day, I think the Asians got it right here. Bowing makes a LOT more sense as a greeting and sign of respect. There's a damn good reason why Asians who had to live in close quarters learned to adopt this habit.

Again... It's ultimately up to the head of a school to decide which traditions and rituals will be practiced there. And the better they are communicated, understood, and enforced, the fewer the problems down the road.

- Bill
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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

KerryM wrote: As an American "teaching" the Uechi style therefore- I would want to go with whatever the Uechi- dojo goes with.

I'll be an "american" practicing and teaching the style- but the style should remian in tact-

rituals and all-
Is the bowing, clapping, and other rituals actually taught, in the literal sense, at the Okinawan Uechi dojo, or do they merely 'happen' at these dojo as a natural part of their culture and it is us westerners who have made them into rituals that we believe should be taught and passed on? This strikes me as a situation similar to the one George outlines in his Bugeisha article "The Evolution of 'Traditional' Karate" (reprinted on-line at http://www.uechi-ryu.com/bugeisha2.pdf ), with us ritualizing and institutionalizing certain activities of another culture without truly understanding the full picture.
KerryM wrote: in my own view - :)
Kerry
Nothing wrong with that view either. I'm more-or-less taking a devil's advocate argument here. I have zero religious/spiritual beliefs and have had no problem with doing the rituals. As a geographer I actually find them interesting, and I enjoy learning other languages.

But with that said, my preference for my training definitely is closer to the statements made by TSDguy. I would not be sorry to see the rituals go, and would be happy to never have to wear a dogi anymore! Fortunately I train in a class in which wearing a dogi is optional, so for the most part I don't wear one. Except of course when Bill comes to visit. A corollary of the "when in Rome..." axiom: "When Caesar comes to visit..." :lol:

This thread has got me thinking that maybe I'm being too nonchalant about the rituals though. I certainly would be opposed to class starting with a ritual that had its basis in Christianity...say putting our palms together and shouting "hallelujah" at the start and end of every class. I doubt I would accept any attempted explanation that it is just a politeness ritual and not religious in nature. (Why I would object to the rituals of one religion and not another is a whole other topic, but probably has something to do with a sensitivity to the prevalent religion in my (American) culture.)

I currently teach at a college. American colleges and universities have their roots in the European Medieval religious colleges, yet I couldn't imagine having to start my classes with a prayer in the name of "tradition".

So maybe I should have a problem with doing the rituals...
Glenn
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Glenn wrote: I currently teach at a college. American colleges and universities have their roots in the European Medieval religious colleges, yet I couldn't imagine having to start my classes with a prayer in the name of "tradition".
How do students address professors (the ones with Ph.D.s) at the college during classs time?

How will you address the person who looks at your painful broken arm in the ER?

Just curious...

- Bill
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Post by KerryM »

It's all a bunch of garbage
Being that I don't share that view- and wish that we could discuss points of the karate without calling any of it garbage...

and being that I have received more insight than I ever imagined- because of this topic- and am terribly grateful for that-

here is where I'll kindly step out of the conversation-

I thank you again-

Ms. Sheets- an extra thank you to you- :)

Kerry
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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

Bill Glasheen wrote: How do students address professors (the ones with Ph.D.s) at the college during classs time?
Depends on the culture the student is from. When I was in graduate school the faculty I interacted were not hung up on formality and wanted to be addressed by their first names, "JP" rather than "Dr. Jones" for example. American and European students had no problem with that, "JP" it is. Asian students generally did have a problem with it though and so they continued to use "Dr. Jones". The closest to break that tradition was a girl from Japan who would address the professor "Dr. JP". This of course is all in informal settings, graduate classes, seminars, etc. In an lower-division undergraduate class I don't recall any student ever addressing the instructor by his/her name. The occassional "sir" or "ma'am" if anything, but that's about it.

Demanding to be called "Dr. Jones" puts up the same wall as demanding to be called Sensei, or Shihan, or whatever. Most faculty I know, particularly the younger ones, seem to not favor this attitude.

For my part I teach at a community college (the same one Dave teaches at) and there are no PhD's there. I tell my students to just call me "Glenn". No need for the formality of "Mr Humphress".
How will you address the person who looks at your painful broken arm in the ER?
Having never been looked at in an ER, I can't say for certain...but knowing me I'd probably address them simply as "Doc" or "sir"/"ma'am". I address my GP by his first name.
Last edited by Glenn on Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Glenn »

I get your point though Bill, there usually is some ritual, particularly at the larger universities. But most of that ritual has changed and diminished over the years. And the rituals at American universities tend to be different than the ones at European universities (which have also changed over time). For that matter, many of the rituals of 50+ years ago are now illegal, just ask the fraternities. :lol: Their attempted defense is usually "but it is tradition", but increasingly that defense doesn't work because of the liability that comes from "tradition".
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Glenn wrote: For that matter, many of the rituals of 50+ years ago are now illegal, just ask the fraternities.
I know... I was probably one of the last pledge classes that had to go through that very special "hell day" that wasn't really supposed to be happening... :roll:

Many of the rituals and protocols are still there in our lives. They are just a little less obvious. One thing that is interesting to note is the problem Asians often have in American industry. They just don't get some things - even without any overt discrimination. On the flip side, I'm often having someone verbally slapping me whenever I say something that just isn't very "Asian" about our esteemed instructors over in Okinawa.

I'm kind of used to opening mouth and exchanging feet though... :wink:

- Bill
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Post by JimHawkins »

We had very few rituals in Moy~Yat's school.

No bowing.

No fancy uniforms.

No counting in Chinese.

No bowing to Ip's picture or his shrine.

The names of the techniques are Chinese of course, except Sifu would use words like punch.... Or 'kick his ball!' :lol:

But I dare say the inter-student/teacher dynamics were the same as in Hong Kong. Students were expected to treat Sifu with the respect and admiration a Chinese Sifu expects and deserves. Students interacted with the same family/dojo rules in place and had the same kinds of issues I hear about from the last generation. But IMO to adapt to the big picture one does need to make the leap across cultures to fully grasp the whole social picture and to truly be part of the family; some couldn't, wouldn’t or didn’t understand how to do this.

Understanding the culture is still important in many schools I would think. Also the Martial material is such that, IMO you need to think Asian to really get it, especially in the softer systems, because Western thinking will sometimes just take you in the wrong direction and further away from the true intention of the material you study.

If you study advanced physics in Japan with top Japanese physicists you should probably, at least speak the language. Now, if you really want that top Japanese physicist to share some of his secrets with you, well you may need to understand more than just the language.
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f.Channell
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Post by f.Channell »

When I first started teaching my space was a bowling alley.
I taught between where the ball returns were. :D
There was no room for the pictures so I just had the students bow to me at the beginning and end of the class.
I now have the pictures but am more apt to ask the students who they are and what they did than just have them bow to them.
The traditional clapping bow I usually reserve for belt tests.
I'd rather get in extra training than the bowing and time involved.

I tend to be somewhat untraditional in that students don't have to wear gi's, or can wear t-shirts. But if they don't they don't get belt promotions.
I suppose sparring to Van Halen is untraditional to some as well, but my kids as psyched to come to sparring class.
A lot of schools I know of have no one show up or very few.

So old traditions are good, but maybe the future traditions you create now are even better.

F.
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Post by IJ »

I think we should expand our idea of what constitutes the ritual of uechi. Certainly, the bowing / clapping stuff is part of uechi history, but not considered by most part of the uechi "meat," either. Icing rather than what it's all about.

I propose that a lot of what people mistake for meat is actually ritual too. For example, seisan bunkai. We talk a lot about it and what goes into seisan and what bunkai teaches us. But... no... one... will... change... it. It's like we found it in Noah's Ark. The specific applications remain the same, even when they're silly (the sword defense). The specific omissions remain (better example: see Kanshiwa bunkai).

We aren't doing these things exactly the same each year because they're perfect. Or because we can't think of a better way. We're doing them in an unchanged way because they're a ritual.

What's significant about that to me is that part of the meat of uechi, in my mind, is a critical eye, a bent towards application, and a willingness to adapt. By mistaking ritual for meat, we may be killing off some of the real meat.

Are people willing to cramble THIS ritual around and test stuff out?
--Ian
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f.Channell
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Post by f.Channell »

IJ,
A lot of schools fool around with the Bunkai.
Uechi-ryu America interjects Jujitsu for example.
I teach the old school 2 person Bunkai as well as mass attack for Kanshiwa.
Also a Kanshu bunkai I learned years ago.
Lately I have been doing the Bunkai without the "show it-do it-show it" just because you can get in more reps of working the moves.
Also in the past at the hut they've done different stuff.

Some of the old traditional elements in the bunkai do bug me.
For example coming in and choking someone who's hands are already up in crane position.
This should be starting with your hands at your side in a more natural position. My humble opinion of course... :D
The love handle lift I also don't care for. :oops:

So some of these things you have to find an application for yourself.
And it might work for you and no one else.

F.
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