Breaking Boards

[Bill Glasheen]

I happen to have an inside track on a lot of this stuff because I once had a professional illusionist (John Kingry) as a karate student. He was doing the bed of nails thing before many of the martial artists had jumped on that bandwagon. We subsequently would watch with amusement as martial artists would lie on beds of nails while having cinderblocks on their stomachs broken with sledghammers. Hmmm....

By the way, does anyone have a link to the cannabis breaking demo? That's my favorite.

- Bill

[Guest]

Hi Rob,

I guess by now you've seen a variety of responses particularly those of the website warriors who have tried to reduce to the absurd your well-intentioned inquiry.

The references I posed in my reply stand in stark contrast to the demeaning tone of several of the replies.

Why should there even be a suggestion that the years of training and integrity of character of Alan Dollar, Shinyu Guishi and Kiyohide Shinjo is an illusion or smoke and mirrors?

My post is solid and well-documented. These men are the real deals and their training is not a gimmick or an illusion.

[Kevin Mackie]

I doubt that any of the previous response were intended to imply that the extreme breaking and condition if those you reference were "smoke and mirrors.

Simple board breaks do not take tremendous MA ability. 1" dry pine broken with the grain..etc.

Even that esteemed martial warrior Donny Osmond included amazing demonstrations of his karate training in board breaking in his lounge act as a teen. (I don't know why, but he did.)

A really great parlor trick is to pick up a piece of scrap wood lying about and break it over your shin without leaving a mark. Ta Daa! Don't try that at home kiddies.

[Bill Glasheen]

John

It is what it is. Tameshiwari is its own entity. It intersects slightly with many activities associated with the dojo.

The subject of breaking things has been given serious academic consideration. Consider the two references below.

S.R. Wilk, R.E. McNair, and M.S. Feld
The Physics of Karate
American Journal of Physics 51 (9) 783-790 (1983)

M.S. Feld, R.E. McNair, and S.R. Wilk
The Physics of Karate
Scientific American 240 (4) 150-158 (1979)

If you study the articles though, they are quick to point out that people can engage in this without knowing how to fight, and vice versa. I would take MIT professor Michael Feld's word on that one.

We have a word for this activity in the business world. We call it marketing.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Here's a quickie article from someone at my alma mater. It is published in the Journal of How Things Work, and references Feld's earlier work.

The Physics of Karate Strikes.

Here's another good quickie article from someone at Hahvahd.

Karate Blow: impulse - momentum - energy

From that article...

You need not be a karate expert to show how the force of a well executed hammer-fist strike will easily break a stack of five to eight boards.

The article has a bunch of geek physics students breaking 8 boards in physics lab. And you know how fearsome those killer physics geeks are...

- Bill

[Glenn]

By the way, does anyone have a link to the cannabis breaking demo? That's my favorite.
- Bill

I posted it not long ago, it's at the bottom of page 1 of this thread.

[Rick Wilson]

Hey Rob:

While we enjoy a good laugh I know most (like myself) have injured some wood and bricks at some point.

Rick

[Topos]

Bill,

Watch it, buddy! [grin]. Some fugitive from the Beaver Factory (MIT, not what you are thinking Bronze) could pull out his pocket protector and hit you with a volume of Morse & Feschbach.

In this vein, back in the 60's when Karate was in its upswing NY Times had an article of a Black Belt who went around demonstrating his prowess to Boy Scouts. His speciality was breaking bricks, singly and in piles.

One day he set up a brick and even after repeated Shutos the brick stood its ground and the Sensei's hand was dripping blood. X-rays showed he had major injury to his hand.

Upon examination the reason for the invulnerable brick was discovered: it was from a batch that was heated near the center of the kiln = maximum hardness, not the run of the mill edge kiln dried, more brittle, bricks.

The Beaver Geek in me concluded that the brick did not respect the sensei's third derivative's being greater than zero.

I was just reminded by the wise advice GEM gave us: hang a sheet of news paper from a hanger and punch at it to develop your speed. He then demonstrated and proceeded to punch so fast that due to the paper's inertia , he caused 2 inch horizontal strips to tear off the bottom.

"When you can do that you know that your punch is correct".

"Yes, sir" was all we could say in admiration.

Took a long time to do that.

[f.Channell]

Impressive as the baseball bat breaks are they still follow certain things which would never happen in a fight.
they are locked into a device which doesn't allow them to move.
The bats must be a certain size to break.
For instance if they tried to break a smaller sized ounce bat such as one Bill Glasheens son may use in Tee-ball they would not be able to break it.

I witnessed Sensei Maemiya do the most amazing break lining up 3 guys with bats held in a standard grip. He broke the first two with roundhouse kicks (waist high) and the 3rd with a shuto. But having spent 2 weeks training with him every night I can tell you very few would undergo the constant conditioning he does to achieve those breaks.

I can also tell you about an American who tried to shin kick a bat and split open his leg from his knee to ankle.

As I said before, don't do it unless you condition heavily, are taught how to condition right, and have a great medical plan.
Even if it has a cool Japanese name. Tameefaybaker or whatever it was called.
F.

[Bill Glasheen]

Even the baseball bat breaks aren't all they are cracked up to be. (Bad pun, I know...) These days, major leaguers sometimes go through several bats in a single at-bat. The intertia of the thick diameter end of a very long bat creates a long lever arm against the thin handle. Orient them the right way, and breaking them isn't that big a deal.

You young-uns who've never swung a real bat may not appreciate how weak a bat is at the wrong orientation - particularly a modern major league bat. That's why they have the label on it, and I still remember the rituals I went through to make sure it was oriented right before every swing.

And I still miss the 'CRACK!' of real ash wood. Somehow 'BOINK!' just doesn't cut it for me.

I agree, Rick, we've all done it. It was fashionable when I started Japanese karate in 1972. We did them at halftime demos during W&M basketball games. And I do remember the care given to picking wood that was properly seasoned.

Breaking is easy if it works. Unlike hitting makiwara or a heavy bag, the contact when there is no board break results in an almost completely elastic collision. When you don't break the wood (brick, tile, bat, etc.), you get an equal and opposite reaction right back into the contact point.

I am not faulting Shinjo, Yonamine, Mayamia, etc. for engaging in a little bit of Uechi marketing. They've done their homework. We people who understand martial arts don't need the sizzle to know when the steak is good.

- Bill

[Piche]

I used to do a lot of breaking in my teens and twenties. Witnessed and did some cool breaks but they really measure nothing. I suppose you could say that some of the unsupported or unmounted breaks did reflect the speed of the individual since thats what you need to do the break.

I Probably witnessed way more injuries though. Lots of boxers fractures and broken toes. Poor conditioning, alignment and stupidity (or specifically stupid instructor for allowing the student to break when they weren't prepared)were usually the cause. The other problem is that materials can be inconsistent. The new 2"x8"x16" patio stones from Home Depot break just looking at them(please reference Bronzedagos breaking vid ). It can be quite an eye opener for the unconditioned MA when the blocks have sat around for a few months. Same with wood. Clear pine breaks like paper. Invariably someone shows up with some#4 pine full of knots in their stack and one board becomes like three.

So IMHO don't bother with breaking. Besides, if your going to risk breaking your hands or feet, it might as well be on your best friends jaw

I

[Glenn]

The Uechi-related dojo that Dave trained at here in Lincoln required breaking a bat with a shin for dan testing. They also did some at demos, among other breaks. He's said it was more physics and confidence than anything, but obviously some conditioning of the shins is needed.

[Guest]

Give me a break

I don't believe physics provides clear explanations on how a baseball curves or a knucker floats which doesn't deter Roger Clemens or Tim Wakefield very much.

Similarly, the physics of breaking sections of 1/2" boards with the hands must differ considerably from breaking a 5 foot 2" x 2" poles over conditioned forearms, thighs, shins, the mid-section and shoulders as a part of Sanchin kitae. Those are the examples I referred to.

Sensei Martin's specialty was breaking one hand-held baseball bat with his round-house kick which is quite an impressive break. The holder had to be a pretty strong person and the bat was held with two hands immediately in front of the holder at chest height.

This is exhibition stuff, and yes it's marketing. It's very effective, attention getting marketing. Who is impressed ... karate students and other breakers who appreciate the skill and level of conditioning required to make the break.

[Bill Glasheen]

I don't believe physics provides clear explanations on how a baseball curves or a knucker floats which doesn't deter Roger Clemens or Tim Wakefield very much.

On the contrary. You're getting in deep here, and arguing with the wrong math geek.

I wrote quite a post several years ago on Wakefield's knuckleball and how it works. I've also talked about how curveballs work.

Basically when you throw a ball with spin, there is higher pressure on the side that is spinning in the direction of travel than there is on the side that is spinning away from the direction of travel. The physics of what happens next is the exact same physics that aerospace engineers use to make planes and jets lift off the ground. (If we had folks with your attitude, the Wright brothers never would have succeeded!) The ball will travel away from the high pressure side, and toward the low pressure side. So depending on the direction of spin, the ball will float, sink, curve away from the batter, or curve towards the batter.

Superb pitchers are able to adjust the direction of the spin to any angle so the batter can never figure out exactly which way it's going to go unless they can "read the spin." This is why there are now new pitching machines that hurl numbered tennis balls at batters at a speed of 150 mph. The batter is supposed to hit the ball, and tell what number is on the ball. Believe it or not, it can be done. And when you get good at that, you can learn to read the spin of a baseball and anticipate which direction it will curve.

For more detail, see thrown for a curve.

The knuckleball is an entirely different kettle of fish. The goal here is to throw the ball with anywhere from a quarter to a single rotation - and no more. The result is an object that is aerodynamically unstable. The math of this is best explained through the field of chaos.

The ideal knuckleball rotates about a quarter of a revolution on its way to the plate. Without the stabilizing gyroscopic effect of spinning, the ball becomes aerodynamically unstable, and the raised seams create an uneven flow of air over the surface of the ball, pushing it one way or another.

- The knuckleball: I don't have any idea where it's going either

Actually a good knuckleball does have a slight rotation—it makes between one-half to one complete revolution in traveling from pitcher to homeplate. It is crucial to have the proper orientation of the seams on the ball as the ball travels through the air. Otherwise, the pitch would simply be a "slow fast ball," which would be very easy to hit.

The principal difference between such a "batting practice fastball" and a knuckleball is that the fastball rotates several times in going from pitcher to homeplate. For a knuckleball, the important thing is that the ball rotate about an axis so that the seams are on one side of the front of the ball at one instant, whereas a little later they are on the other side of the front of the ball. The ball will then drift in the direction of the leading seam, and then drift back when the seam becomes exposed on the other side.

The seams produce turbulence in the air flowing around the ball, disturbing the air layer traveling with the ball and thereby producing a force on the ball. As the ball slowly rotates, this force changes, causing the ball to "flutter" and slowly drift.

- Porter Johnson (physics professor, Illinois Institute of Technology)

The science behind the knuckler was clarified when engineers Eric Sawyer and Robert Watts of Tulane University in New Orleans conducted wind tunnel experiments in 1975. They found that pressure would build up on one side of the ball and then the other, causing it to dart back and forth from its original trajectory.

- Popular Science

I use some of the same mathematics and science, by the way, in biomedical engineering. It explains how you can ventillate a cat with only a 5cc tidal volume. You bring the respiratory rate up to about 20 cycles per second, and suddenly you get turbulent air flow. The "break point" from laminar to turbulent air flow can be calculated via a dimensionless constant call the Reynold's number. It also explains why you get clots in your blood stream with artifical hearts, and when the heart has long-term atrial fibrillation. But that's even more complicated.

If you take some math, you could understand this. Or you can choose to ingore it all, and assume Tim Wakefield has good chi.

Is this important to martial artists? You bet. Years ago, rifles had smooth bore, and the balls that came out of them didn't travel very far and couldn't hit their target very well. Basically the rifles were throwing knuckleballs.

Then one day, someone thought to put a spiral in the bore of the barrel. This caused the bullet to spin slightly, making it stable (like a motorcycle with its gyroscope effect) and making the air pressure about the bullet more uniform. Believe it or not, the first "rifles" were shown to the church some years back. The effect of increasing the bullet range and accuracy was so profound that the pope ruled it was the work of the devil and banned its use in combat.

Go figure... Bad chi, eh?

Take a look at the feathers on any arrow. Are they oriented straight back?

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

This is a good picture of "rifling" which makes a bullet spin and so travel farther and more stable.



- Bill