The Wauke: Forward vs. Backward

[JimHawkins]

By the way this thread is about the energy used in the wauke. Now unless you long distance folks are going to be shooting chi out of your waukes you'll need to get close enough to make contact with them.

So, this thread deals with wauke contact, that's telephone booth distance folks not cell phone distance.

Thanks

[MikeK]

Tony, I do like Jim's original post on this thread, it's well written and makes some excellent points. I don't like that for some reason if someone with a different experience is pooh pooh'd if they say "but what about what happened to me? How does that hold water in my real world situation?" Theories are great, but have they been tested?

This is not to say the anti-backup folks are wrong, but that there is more out there than just "ENTER, ENTER".

[gmattson]

a circle, when a person stands still, a "spiral" when moving forward and backward. It takes on infinite variations as a person modifies his movement in other directions and with other body positioning.

None of this has anything to do with how it can be used to destroy a person's weapons or the person. That requires interaction with a partner and with this "interaction", creates the infinite possibilities for application.

I work with people who are more comfortable moving forward than in any other direction, so many of my basic drills involve getting my students comfortable with unfamiliar actions. Becoming comfortable with movements to the rear, side, angles and circular with those moves, doesn't in any way impede their ability to move forward or provide them with an incentive to move in one way or another when under a powerful, relentless and dangerous attack. (As the opposition arguments claim)

However, when students (who use my drills) face these uncompromising and real-world dangers and. . . responds in a way his/her instructor may not appreciate, they may be able to deflect/react or act, while moving easily and. . . able to use his/her MA tools instead of. . . falling on his/her ass, because his/her teacher didn't provide any drills/instruction/possibility that the student would do anything but react in the way the teacher dictated.

[Guest]

George, it's too bad you keep getting picked on because Rick has done some good things with Kyu Kumite, e.g. preperation for a "follow-up" (never thought i'd see the day in Uechi Ryu) but he is still using the same old worthless attacks. If you guys could somehow share what you're working on everyone could benefit from it. I was really impressed with your defense against a full out jab/reverse combo (UnHerman'd). I guess the only way for you two to work together would be for Rick to accept "backing up" as a valid response to some situations.. and sadly... I don't think he'll be doing that anytime soon. Thats too bad for all of us... really.

Ricks the bottleneck! Ricks the bottleneck! (just kidding Rick... love ya man!)

[2Green]

Here's what's weird:
When I was younger and more naive, I thought there was a whole ethos about MA that RELIED on backing up to "use the attacker's momentum against him" or whatever.
There were examples from "Judo" where an attacker would lunge in --the JudoKa would actually grab him and PULL HIM FORWARD then fall backward and flip/pull the attacker over him.

Then there was the concept of "pulling in the attack" in order to "redirect" or "blend" with it or some such...

Then there was AiKiDo which "harmonizes" with the attacker by "yielding" into a position of adavantage...

My understanding of the specifics is vague, but my point is:
"NOT meeting an attack head-on by "standing", but rather, taking advantage by yielding/pulling/redirecting is a MAJOR concept."

I always thought this was true as a MA layman. I thought this WAS the major point of MA.
It was not until Uechi training that I learned about moving inside the eye of the hurricane where things are calmer, and forget about yielding.
Go in and bite the belly of the porcupine.


So, where MA lore is full of references to the power of yielding to take advantage, I see no surprise that this is perceived as a tactic: and to be honest, I can see where it could be a powerful surprise.
Punch someone, flat out, fully expecting an impact...and suddenly they are not there. Worse, they are fully balanced as you trip forward...

Anyway, there are lots of reasons why this would be seen a legitimate tactic, given the history and mythos.
There may be some power there, I don't know. there seems to be a lot of history there.


NM

[Stryke]

Judoka and Aikidoka both have contact and are manipulating when they redirect , it`s not a case of jumping out of the way .

Then there was the concept of "pulling in the attack" in order to "redirect" or "blend" with it or some such...

Then there was AiKiDo which "harmonizes" with the attacker by "yielding" into a position of adavantage...

I think one of the tricks is being able to do all of the above while going forward , it`s not a blind rush , it`s a skill set that needs to be developed IMHO .

I think people just have a vision that going forward means to blindly rush in and be tougher ...

[JimHawkins]

a circle, when a person stands still, a "spiral" when moving forward and backward. It takes on infinite variations as a person modifies his movement in other directions and with other body positioning.

I agree and have posted this as phrased here.

None of this has anything to do with how it can be used to destroy a person's weapons or the person.

The kind of energy used by the body and released through these positions has everything to do with how these tools function or fail to function. This is directly related to something called having an energy strategy. Apparently a concept that is still not understood.

I work with people who are more comfortable moving forward than in any other direction, so many of my basic drills involve getting my students comfortable with unfamiliar actions. Becoming comfortable with movements to the rear, side, angles and circular with those moves, doesn't in any way impede their ability to move forward or provide them with an incentive to move in one way or another when under a powerful, relentless and dangerous attack. (As the opposition arguments claim)

Meanwhile George clearly advocated MY tactical response in the pizza incident where a full out forward AND frontal continuous CG attack was discussed. But as I gather from the above quote we are expected to believe that entering and attacking effectively comes naturally for most beginners and so better to focus on "other things" whatever that is, involving evasion, back peddling and reversing, moving away, etc..

Never in my life have I seen a *green* new student with no experience or natural killing ability NATURALLY have any clue how to enter with an effective and continuous attack.. Most TMA with experience have trouble putting together a powerful and effective attack with continuity, let alone how to deal with resistance.

So we are expected to believe that new students already do this NATURALLY? That's a good one George..
So this ability is a given and that's why beginning students need to train running/evasion, etc; Because that's the real skill set they come to MA for and need to get under their belt up front.

Sounds good to me if that’s the official tactical training position of the organization. I guess most of the teachers who remain silent on this issue agree with this position. Hey solidarity is cool.

[JimHawkins]

Neil,

Making contact to gain control and speed up your timing is often the precursor to all of this, be it going deep inside or spinning them into an armlock... In one of my Aiki books they talk about making contact for feel and control regardless if you then exit <with a part of them> or Enter and drop them. Either way you're in contact and it is this contact that affords the read, through feel of what you need to do, be it fill with power and leverage or yeild in order to let them tie themselves or open themselves up.

Making contact and feeling is what can allow many of these other things to actually work.. It's when folks think they can simply see a punch and pluck it out of the air, etc this misses the point. The point that proximity facilitates contact, use of energy/force/structure and read through feel has been missed often in these debates.

[Rick Wilson]

Tony:

“I'm not worried about yours Rick, i'm standing up for mine and anyone else who sees the value in "backstepping"! I encourage anyone reading this to practice moving to the rear, escaping, evading.. all that stuff... it's uechi... it's in the katas (both major and minor katas) and its makes you a good, well rounded fighter who will drive "forward only" fighters insane. Watch Gatti ! A master of the slip and backpeddler extrodinaire!”

Tony we have been far too honest with each other to start disrespecting each other now. You took the dogma shot on Van’s forum etc. But truly no worries my friend I encourage good honest discussion and no whining emails to George either because I will answer back on my own and I know you will handle any answers with good grace (not agreement perhaps. )

I must have missed something in our Kata that there is a series with continued backing up in it? Which one and where?

Hey here are some nice Kata for folk to look at and tell me where we see continuous backing up – where are there two steps back?

http://banffuechiryu.tripod.com/id9.html

You might recognise yourself in the clips Tony and I don’t see you taking two steps back in ANY of them.

Having control of the distance, which can and will include backing up, is indeed something to know and I have said this.

Also to go forward you also have to understand angles ala Jim Maloney to make it work best.

I don’t agree with the Herman Munster forward fighting either so….

Let me explain the error some make in coming forward that will allow a master of distance to take them out or give them a beating in a boxing ring.

When a lion attacks a gazelle they have very little concern for their own wellbeing and other than which way the gazelle is going to run next they care very little for what the gazelle will do so they are basically unaware of it.

This is typical predator attacking prey.

Often the “drive forward only” folk have tapped nicely into the predator mindset and attack with that intent.

No problem unless they are NOT attacking prey but another predator.

A lion does not fight another lion the way the attack a gazelle. They are well aware the other lion is dangerous to them and can take them out so they MUST be aware of what the other lion is doing.

The drive forward only guys run into problems when the person they are fighting is also of a predator mindset because they are not aware of what they person they are fighting is doing and they lose.

You must be aware and not charging blindly forward, and if you do you will be taken out if your prey turns out to be predator.

As for evading I refer you again to my tape and the value I see in that. I am all for evading. It is just basic stuff but the intent is clear.

But as a consistent strategy constant backing up is not what I advocate and according to George’s post on Van’s form something he has never advocated.

We did a large number of drills tonight on backing up and I will write them up but it is too late tonight.

[Guest]

I'm not being disrespectful to you Rick. I respect you and the work you do and I think that your karate is top notch and you are a fine sensei, your students should be proud to train under you. But your right, I am honest with you and anyone else... The reason you don't see the backstepping is because it is subtle and you have already filtered it out... you don't want to see it. No problem, but just remember, there are folks in Uechi who see the kata differently then you and it's not fair for you to say the backstroke isn't uechi... it is and most of it is in the katas that you arent doing.

As far as the Herman Munster attack... c'mon... that is not an attack. You step through and punch??? As Jim said, you have to use their energy against them. What energy? There is never anything there! Whats to use? Again, i'm not picking on anyone... I "have" to do that crap too (when I do it).. all i'm saying is that is the first place to look.. and honestly, maybe if you had an Uke come at you with a dangerous attack you might actually see some value in the backtroke.

[MikeK]

Often the “drive forward only” folk have tapped nicely into the predator mindset and attack with that intent.

No problem unless they are NOT attacking prey but another predator.

Very nicely put Rick, something that should always be figured in the equation.

[Rick Wilson]

Once again Tony rather than tell me what I am missing please point to the spot in the Kata where these "hidden" two back steps are. These clips are of your Kata not mine so it should be easy to do.

I am nt blind and I see a lot so if you would be so kind as to refer to your Kata clips and tell me "there right there" that would be great.

If I say there is a point int he Kata where we pretend we are Big Bird you just can't see it and constantly refuse to point out just where that is then I doubt you would be convinced of much.

Please refer to the actual kata, I mean we have them right there so why is this so difficult for you to do? Unless of course it just ISN'T THERE.

[Guest]

Konchin, zen suko geri, slide "back" ko suko geri. This is a backstep. If you focus on the footwork alone, it provides you with a way out of the corner when your in the boxing ring... or maybe in the mens room.

Seirui... obvious step to the rear at the end... bankai is not so obvious.... the denial however is.

Seichin, same movement basically just before you do the shoken lift that doesn't work.

These subtle movements are all over the place in the kata.. I guess you have to be tuned into it to cultivate any techniques from it.

[benzocaine]

2Green-"It was not until Uechi training that I learned about moving inside the eye of the hurricane where things are calmer, and forget about yielding.
Go in and bite the belly of the porcupine"'

Aikido goes right in also. Its called taking their center. There is a throw (Ibeleive is called Irim-nage) theat you actually hug their head into you..taking their center away and you become the hurricaine..and then thwump you clothes line them I'll try and find a clip.[/quote]

[Guest]

First move in Kanshiwaw.. foot slides to the rear. If it's there... you can use it and no one can tell you it's not Uechi. This same foot movement is in Seisan in the corner just after the Tetsui.. you slide to the rear, pivot 90 and perform a wauke/nukite.

Truth is... their everywhere... some are more pronounced then others.. some are blatently obvious like the end of Sanseirui or Seirui.

By the way Rick, I have some Ukes!

3 Shorin Ryu guys from a dojo on the other side of town. It looks like they will be doing some taping with me. Give me a month and i'll be posting some of my interpretatons of Kyu Kumite and how I would like to see it done. There will be no Herman Munster attacks and in fact, there may not be a 2nd attack. Part of the reason people are stepping back is because the initial defense is pathetic and weak... there really shouldn't even be a 2nd shot. It's funny how we all tend to look at the finger that points to the moon without really seeing the real problems... so to summarize, my problem with Kyu Kumite is not that it isn't Uechi, it's that the attacks are not realisitc, they are not 100% commited (they stop instead of continuting into the abyss, that attack should be nothing less then a huge artilery shell, it should be way beyond where the defender is standing, how else are you going to use your Uechi powers to direct energy? There simply isn't any in a Herman Munster attack)and certainley not ergomically correct. The defenses are not effective because the offender is *able* to get a second shot off... I guess it's ok for Kyu's.. but Godans and Rokyudans? No... that attack should come at you and it should be dangerous... if he hits you, it should cause some kind of injury... but it's ok because your defense is sound. The attack should also be consistent with Uechi kata and come off the rear foot... if you're going to Jab, then Jab... don't try to delvier a knock out blow iwth a jab and then try to sell it is some kind of powerful attack... its not.