Flag and drum - Seisan/Sanseiryu

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:46 am

Marcus,
I started a thread for us and anybody else who wants to share their ideas about Bassai on the kata forum. I figure that's better than hijacking Dana's thread.

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:18 pm

So your basically doing an outside armbar Dana ?

ummm...not really, no.

Nothing gets barred, nothing gets locked. You are basically turning their forward shove into a rotation that plops them on the ground. This works before their hands touch you or even after their hands are on you as long as their momentum is still moving foward. If they're just standing there without forward momentum it doesn't work at all.

You kinda pin their elbows together (or whatever you end up getting) and drop down while helping them continue to move forward. You move to the outside - yes - but it seems that I'm actually more likely to catch the inside of the opposite arm with my elbow than anything else. But as long as they're moving foward it doesn't matter so much what you catch. It really just puts them into the void in front of them very quickly (to use Rick's terminology). I'll see if I can't tape it on Tuesday and share.

So the principles applied are tai sabaki, opposing forces, dropping your center of gravity, and using Uke's forward momentum to take them down.

Believe me - I'll never be the one to say "this is the only application for this posture" however since this one was in the magazine and just so closely matched the posture in our kata I had to give it a try. I was really quite surprised by how easy it is to do.

And FWIW, I'm very cautious these days about sticking together too many of the postures in a kata in a row. What happens next in kata is sometimes meaninful and sometimes not (IMHO). So I look at each posture as a collection of stand alone principles to be studied and then stuck back together however you happen to need them in the moment.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:44 pm

Dana wrote:
Believe me - I'll never be the one to say "this is the only application for this posture" however since this one was in the magazine and just so closely matched the posture in our kata I had to give it a try.

You are both smart and wise, and obviously partially due to an open mind.

Dana wrote:
And FWIW, I'm very cautious these days about sticking together too many of the postures in a kata in a row. What happens next in kata is sometimes meaninful and sometimes not (IMHO). So I look at each posture as a collection of stand alone principles to be studied and then stuck back together however you happen to need them in the moment.

That's a great approach, Dana.

In my opinion though the trick is seeing that there CAN be logic from technique sequence to technique sequence. However the logic displayed is an example of the application of grammar (sequence) to the vocabulary (techniques) of the system. The grammar shown is there to teach you the rules that you can run with on your own.

There are several reasons why I say this. As I learn more and more both about the kinesiology of the forms and the logic of how techniques create opening that begat more techniques, I feel like I have less and less to remember to make the forms work. Most of the Uechi forms are beautifully put together, and have gems hidden in them.

Seichin to me is the first and foremost example of a form that is just a jumble of "stuff." Many techniques alone have myriad applications, and I find I can make more sense of the application by stringing the techniques together in ways other than the way Itokazu originally put that form together.

However... Seisan most definitely has logical strings of sequences. And I see them repeating themselves in other systems, making me think more and more that the author was trying to tell us something really important.

- Bill

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:44 pm

R would hit A's nearest elbow C with their T arm and seize A's B-side arm with their hand S.

Dana,
Would I be correct in that you are breaking the elbow down and folding it? Are you pushing it in and across A's body?

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:42 pm

Yes - if you happen to catch it on the way by that's what you do...but you're not trying to "fold the elbow" per se - you're just swinging your elbow across their centerline where their arms are in the hopes that you catch something so you can drop your weight into it and you pull the far side wrist towards you.

Catch as catch can...

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:38 pm

If I understand what you're describing then it sounds close to a family of moves that I like. How would you rate the percentage of it working?
For grins and giggles try this, have someone stand in sanchin, do the same move with your left hand going into the elbow area of their left arm, but have your right hand at their left wrist. Now while pushing their elbow across and up, pull their left wrist down like a lever.

You're essentially making a circle with the forearm and you should end up back in the flag and drum posture and they will either go down to their left or have a dislocated shoulder.

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:12 pm

Well since I just started trying to do the move last Wednesday I'd say I'm not really in a position to think about how well it works just yet. But so far I'm finding it to be a very easy way to help someone fall forward who meant to pushing me backwards.

I'm having a little trouble picturing what you're talking about. I'll go get some more coffee and see if that helps.

-Dana

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:23 pm

Naw, it's just me Dana. It's real easy to show but since English isn't my first language it's a little hard for me to explain. I'll see if I can grab one of my kids and a camera to show it.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:36 am

It sounds very cool , I obviously got the wrong Idea , footage would be great , this is the kind of stuff I hope to see on forums .

chewy · Post by **chewy** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:56 pm

OK. I read this thread before going to lunch today and couldn't get it off my mind. It seems to me that "shove defense" that Dana is proposing requires some forward trunk momentum by the attacker/shover. A lot of shoves that I've seen outside the dojo:

A) Are used to provoke a physical confrontation, but rarely used once things are underway.

B) Are prerformed from a very short distance away.

C) Are done from an upright position with very little forward momentum until, that is, contact is made between the shover and the shoved.

I'm going to see if I can get my sensei to work on this a little tonight. If not, then maybe I can find some guinee pigs before or after class.

What I'm guessing is, the way you perform the shove defense is going to be dependent upon how the shove starts out. If someone is doing a shove from a stand still, and you begin the defense before they have committed (i.e., when their hands are just getting planted on you), then I'm not so sure that they will go to the ground. On th other hand, if they are stepping, rocking, reaching, or otherwise putting body momemtum into the shove up front, then they should go down nicely.

In other words, I think you'll need either forward momentum or force-on-force to get them to tumble.

I know you are just starting to experiment with this, Dana, but are your ukes/shovers stepping into you when shoving or starting from a stand still? I'm just thinking out loud here, not trying to be critical of the application in any way... it seems pretty cool at first blush.

chewy

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:51 pm

Absolutely. If someone is shoving from standing still then the movements out of the earlier part of seisan (whack 'em upside the head) are very useful.

The reason I looked at the application with forward shoving (for example when someone is looking to back you up into a wall/car/door etc is because of the text in the article.

The "pecking order" shove of someone standing there and trying to make you angry by just giving you a little shove with their arms is programmed to happen just before the right hand dominance swing.

Also most normal humans will shove from a "natural" stance or with their feet in what we call "neutral" position. Ask a Uechi-ka to give you a shove and they'll probably do it from sanchin without thinking about it.

So I think you're absolutely correct in that if the uke doesn't bring themselves off their heels even a little bit this technique won't work in this way - you'll have to do something else.

However - while I haven't tried it yet - it would also probably work against a forward choke since most people, when riled up to that point - will be pressing forward while they choke you - only problem is if they don't let go you'll probably be giving yourself whiplash.

So good thoughts and good questions. I'm certinally in no place to say "this way is better than another" I too am simply exploring it as an option.

happy training,
Dana

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:55 pm

And I've finally purchased a cheap little video capture thingy and editing software for my home computer. (I didn't buy a good one on purpose because I don't want to do work at home, ya know?)

However it will capture video and make little mpegs that I can post. So I'll take the camera with me on thursday and see if I can get someone to be on tape with me for this little maneuver.

Again - there's lots of things to do against a shove and this may not be the best one - I'm just playing to see if it might be a nice little trick to tuck into the toolbox.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:40 am

it doesnt matter if its the best or not Dana , it sounds interesting.

either way your exploring the material and learning about hapv and the kata mechanics .

it sounds cool , look forward to taking a look .

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:18 am

OK folks, here ya go!

Thanks to my kind dojo mate for being uke. You'll notice that he's a nice compliant uke - that's because I wanted ya'll to see what was going on and we didn't have time to get the mats out for non-compliant stuff.

Copy and paste the entire link because this board doesn't like the asterix.

And then tell me what you think!

FYI - it is about 8 megs.

http://www.zippyvideos.com/288863868420 ... *danawoman

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:44 am

Very cool Dana Thanks

this is interesting very similar to apps Rick and Laird do , but with a different twist with the movement literally .

do you agree the key to making this work is the lifting up and then downwards action of the weight/elbow .

a similar move can be done with this on the inside were you pull the arm drive the elbow up into the armpit and then drop the weight down through the shoulder , taking them into a rear void .

good stuff .

Flag and drum - Seisan/Sanseiryu

got me thinking...

video