why do I see more style bashing?

[AAAhmed46]

I thought Liddell was a kickboxer?

He has it in his background, but clearly gives credit to his TMA training.

HOw do i know this? Because on Bullshido, a place where MANY of the posters have a clear bias against TMA, actually talked about his training in TMA.

[Jake Steinmann]

Maybe it's a canadian thing.

You Canadians are a surly and unruly lot...

[AAAhmed46]

Well you know how we get when the maple syrup is running through our veins!

[a.f.]

AAAhmed, what does TMA stand for?

I think part of the reason that it's now fashionable to hold karate in contemp is because many people envision an oversimplified version of it. Many people that I talk to assume that karate is only punches and kicks and loses all effectiveness as soon as the karateka gets grabbed. What they don't realize is how much of the nuts and bolts of karate is in-close moves that have been developed because they WORK.

This myth is perhaps reinforced by the fact that some karateka I know aren't even aware of some of the key applications of their karate. I know I wasn't, when I first started. But once I started looking, I saw that most things I wished Uechi had were there right in front of me the whole time.

[AAAhmed46]

Nutriders exist for all styles!

http://www.bullshido.net/gallery/showph ... ig/cat/515




TMA: Anything that practices kata and is either karate, kung-fu, TKD essentially.

[Glenn]

a.f.,
To answer your question about the acronym:
TMA = "Traditional" Martial Arts

[Willy]

part of the reason it's fashionable to hold karate in contempt....there's lots of garbage out there. lots of mcdojo's and unqualified teachers and non contact martial arts in the world these days. I scoff at some of it too.

seek out the good

[Stryke]

man when will folks learn


it`s wrong to hold styles in contempt , stop be afraid and hiding behind styles , hold people in contempt

[Willy]

man when will folks learn


it`s wrong to hold styles in contempt , stop be afraid and hiding behind styles , hold people in contempt

Well said Stryke!

[Bill Glasheen]

Well stated, Marcus.

there was a certain "we do all of that, and more, and better" sense that came across.

Yes, there was a bit of swagger. Guilty as charged. And you'll see it in your face times ten if you're a Yankee fan.

It's what people with pride in their art do. I think a certain amount of it is fine so long as it isn't AT THE EXPENSE OF the other style. And that most certainly wasn't intended.

But the Yankees do ******, mind you...

Better? No. That most definitely did not represent my view, or even what I expessed intentionally or otherwise. That's so bloody subjective, and it doesn't fit with my mantra.

Let me repeat it a third time, in case it got lost.

never forget the old saying about confusing the moon for the finger pointing at it. It isn't the style; it's the person teaching it and/or practicing it.

More? I do believe that. But I've been studying Sanchin via 2 different styles and Uechi in particular for 32 years. I've also done other Japanese, Chinese, and American fighting arts and sports, and have competed in touch and full contact (although only a bit on the latter, and in the boxing ring).

As I view my art, the Uechi version of Sanchin is a study of movement upon which you can go in myriad directions - including to groundfighting. And if you don't believe that, ask my unathletic son (age 13) why he won his last 5 matches (out of 6) by pin in his first ever year wrestling. Even he doesn't completely understand it.

But here's the thing, Jake. More is not necessarily better. I did not say better. Nobody can do it all; everyone will find a niche, and will specialize. As I see it, there is a certain brutal and effective simplicity to Muay Thai. And how that style commonly expresses itself translates extremely well to these MMA formats that are the martial thing du jour. It's easy to see how Muay Thai people can feel pretty good about their art today.

KISS is good. Even in the field of statistics, a parsimonious model wins you more points on a goodness-of-fit test. On the street, simple means you act quicker. (Hick's law)

I just happen to see things in Uechi kata that I (or my students or others) can easily take in many unique directions. And I have the finished product students to back up my assertion.

Thai mechanics and Uechi mechanics are different. A Uechi-ka trying to adapt to Muay Thai would look similar, but not exactly the same.

You cannot be more wrong, Jake. You can think that if you wish.

Let me re-quote myself.

That's not Uechi!!!

One of several things that make me go bullshit is seeing someone (of whatever rank, age, experience, or command of whatever chi-ster language) study a style for a little bit of time, then go elsewhere, and then proclaim that the second style was better and/or the people in the first style have no idea what they are doing. Often the situation itself speaks volumes absent any knowledge of either style.

That's what got me going on my first half-serious but quite abusive rant above.

It is human nature not to see things the first few times (or years or decades) that you look at something. Knowledge is acquired in layers. You can teach a kid the equation E=MC^2, and he will be able to recite the capitulation of a lifetime of brilliant physics. But he really won't know squat at that point. How the hell can you get that much energy from that much matter? The devil is in the details, and that is where the true knowledge is hidden.

I want to slap people when they try to put my Uechi in a box. If they want only to see certain things inside some godforsaken straightjacket, that's fine by me - for THEIR ryu. Just don't do that in a way of fighting that never was intended to be limited that way. I've been going on and on about this in several threads over the past month.

More and more these days I can see why Bruce Lee got so damn frustrated with the "classical mess." If someone told me I couldn't think the way I do, I'd throw my useless black belt in the trash in a New York second.

The only thing I will concede to you, Jake, is that perhaps I have a limited view of the breadth of Muay Thai. I don't think so. I see beauty in its simplicity. But others who know far more about the style than I could see more in it. In that case, I gladly stand corrected. I love being shown wrong in such situations; these are the great learning opportunities.

- Bill

[Jake Steinmann]

Yes, there was a bit of swagger. Guilty as charged. And you'll see it in your face times ten if you're a Yankee fan.

It's what people with pride in their art do. I think a certain amount of it is fine so long as it isn't AT THE EXPENSE OF the other style. And that most certainly wasn't intended.

But the Yankees do ******, mind you...

Better? No. That most definitely did not represent my view, or even what I expessed intentionally or otherwise. That's so bloody subjective, and it doesn't fit with my mantra.

I have my flaws, but I know better than to root for the Yankees.
Having pride in your art is cool; I certainly have pride in mine.

You cannot be more wrong, Jake. You can think that if you wish.

I'll amend my own statement: IN MY EXPERIENCE, Muay Thai and Uechi use different body mechanics. Similar, but somewhat different. My experience in Uechi, I'll concede, is limited and a bit out-of-date.

Your Uechi may do things differently.

And for the record, I personally think what you're doing with your Uechi is great. Make it whatever you want. I'm glad you enjoy it!

The only thing I will concede to you, Jake, is that perhaps I have a limited view of the breadth of Muay Thai. I don't think so. I see beauty in its simplicity. But others who know far more about the style than I could see more in it. In that case, I gladly stand corrected. I love being shown wrong in such situations; these are the great learning opportunities.

I'm trepedatious about posting something like this, because on the internet, it can come across the wrong way, but...

Whenever you are next in the Boston area, if you have the time and desire, feel free to stop by Sityodtong and check it out. That's not a challenge, nor a threat, but an honest offer for you to get a good look at some excellent Muay Thai, and maybe see some things about the art you haven't seen before.

Again, no malice intended, nor do I expect you to walk out saying "Oh my stars and garters! I've wasted years on Uechi when I should be doing Muay Thai!" Just an opportunity for a friendly exchange/obersvation/whatever.

Good training!

[a.f.]

Jake,

Not intending this as a challenge either, just genuinely curious:

What sorts of techniques are there in Muay Thai that are nowhere in Uechi? Again, not demeaning, I'm asking seriously.

[Bill Glasheen]

Jake

I know you better than that. I'm honored to be so invited. These days my company flies me up to Waltham quite a bit. I'll see what we can do about that visit.

PM me the details.

- Bill

[Jake Steinmann]

Bill

PM for ya.

a.f.

Man, that’s a loaded question, especially with Bill of Borg watching me.

Disclaimer: the following is based on my experiences with Muay Thai, Uechi, and the interplay between those two arts. There may be those who have more experience with Uechi who see or do things differently. But this is what I’ve observed.

First, I think some of the differences are more mechanical than they are technical. In other words, both Uechi and Muay Thai punch; but they punch differently. Uechi punches, when it does punch (and don’t anyone tell me it doesn’t, ‘cause I’ve seen y’all out there with your punches, and your punchy kata), like most karate styles. Straight, very snappy, punches. Muay Thai punches are…choppier. I know that’s a lousy description, but it’s the best I’ve got. Western boxing has had a large influence on modern Muay Thai (and the Sityodtong camp, in particular, is known for good boxing), but the punches have a harsher, chopping quality to them then standard boxing punches.

Likewise, Uechi and Muay Thai both share elbows, knees, a front kick, a roundhouse kick…but the WAY in which they throw them is different. Or so I believe. . I will say this. Every student we’ve ever had come in, no matter from what other style (and we’ve got at least one Uechi-ka studying with us right now) always has trouble with the mechanics of Thai kicks, because they’re noticeably different from the mechanics they learned in other arts. That includes TKD, Uechi, and even San Shou. No one I’ve seen kicks quite like the Thai (though the Burmese might).

In terms of a technical arsenal; Muay Thai has a wide variety of throws, trips, and turnovers that most people never see. Some of them are probably in Uechi (in fact, I know some of them are). Some of them might not be. In my experience, *most* Uechika don’t really practice fighting in the clinch, and so they never see these opportunities/techniques, even if they are encoded somewhere within the kata. Which, for the record, I’m not convinced they are.

So it’s not just about the techniques—it’s about the way we do those techniques in relation to how Uechi does them. Neither one is better or worse, necessarily, but they are different.

Again, all in my experience.

[a.f.]

I hear you. Let's try this. I think I know the Uechi kata pretty well (except for sanseiryu). Give me an example of one of the turnovers or throws that you are thinking of. Perhaps I can find an example in Uechi kata.

I'm not challenging you, simply exploring.