Uechi Sanchin a Sai Kata?

[Kuma-de]

For just under $300.00 plus shipping you can get a custom set of hand made sai:

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Measure from the tip of the extended index finger to the end of the bent elbow. Then add 1/2 inch. This is the perfect Sai length!

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Peter Carbone makes a great product, but if you want to be a wimp you can purchase 'rubber' sai!!
That way when you drop them on your toes or on the dojo floor, you don't leave dents!!




Shureido's natural sai are excellent, too.

http://www.shureidousa.com/kobudo/sai.html

I hear hat Oyata's sai are nice too:

http://www.ryu-te-supplies.com/Sai&Kama.htm

Sai As A Tool

Originally the Sai were used to measure the distance between seeds in a crop. The Sai was poked into the ground and because of the forked shape it would leave three holes. When it was poked again, the farmer would line up the first and last hole and thus have an evenly spaced crop. After months and years of poking with this tool and flipping, resting, etc. a person could become quite proficient in putting the small point of this karate weapon exactly where he wanted it.

From:

http://www.ninja-weapons.com/Weapons/Ok ... _sai.shtml

These are good low end sai for beginners!!

Gambatte,

[cxt]

I question the choice of words in the marketing.

But the man makes seriously good sai.

I have bought and very roughly used several over the years.

[Stryke]

Nathan Johnson is a progressive guy , I think his work is good but I find his conclusions a little too conveniant .

there is little (ie none) evidence to back his claims and the appearance of presenting it as fact rather than theory is probably usefull to gain a certain market , but drives away the valid researcher IMHO who would accept it as very good hypothesis

I think Uechi is perhaps the best karate style to incorporate weapons IMHO , I dont say that from a naive perspective (I guess IMHO ) , Ive looked at a lot of karate .

I think Nathan Johnson biggest contribution to karate is his work into karate style push hands , this to me demonstrates a bigger understanding of the traditional roots than defining it as Sai work .

I`m not surprised he chose Uechi as his Sai template , I think that complement in itself should challenge more traditional Uechika to ask why , what posturally and strategically translates so well to weapons .

I occasionaly do Sanchin and Seisan with Tonfa , but my favourite would be Sanchin with Double Rattan , I also use chinese butterfly swords and plain short knives and pocket sticks .

that positional strategy of uechi is very sound , and very valid at the weapons range , I find i ineresting to compare wing chun butterfly sword and uechi posture .

but is it a Sai system , I really dont think theres any valid evidence or historical credibility .

Can it fit and improve understanding , A much better question .

Grreat theory and examination worth looking at .

[Bill Glasheen]

Excellent commentary, Marcus.

Bill

[jorvik]

Nathan Johnson has been mentioned before on these fora .and if he'd just stuck with his original ideas he would have a tad more credibility than he now does.
this was his starting point

http://home.clara.net/buddhistwingchun/

from there he went on to promote the idea of pushing hands being the real motivation behind karate. He didn't use Uechi kata though he used Sanchin from Goju Ryu, and also Tensho and another kata ( which I forget)
and he called it Zen shorin Do

now he has gone on to call it Ko do-ryu.............http://clubs.susu.org/clubs-181.html

I suppose that ther is a grain of truth, possibly more than a grain.there always is in the best conspiracy theories and urban legends,
but facts are facts ...Uechi doesn't use weapons, that's not to say that you can't .just that it's not done

[Bill Glasheen]

You have to qualify your statements just as much as Nathan does, Ray.

Uechi's postures can be found throughout Chinese and Okinawan weapon forms. Uechi's Seisan kata has many postures in it that are found in one or more of the kata of most weapons.

Kanbun was studying in an area rich in martial tradition, where people fought both with and without weapons. And he studied Okinawan martial arts before he ever set foot on China. So "his" style was not created in a vacuum.

We just need to put the associations and causalities in their proper perspective.

Mind you, I know how you are about the "purity" of Uechi Ryu. This is Uechi... That's not Uechi... It's all the more reason why I challenge you - if only for sport.

- Bill

[chef]

Deleted

[Stryke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai1HtkMMrEc

[jorvik]

Quote
" You have to qualify your statements just as much as Nathan does, Ray.

Uechi's postures can be found throughout Chinese and Okinawan weapon forms. Uechi's Seisan kata has many postures in it that are found in one or more of the kata of most weapons."

not really Bill .I'm not saying anything revolutionary, or trying to prove something that isn't an established fact like Nathan is. Postures are not the same as weapons. FWIW I have done quite a bit of Tai-chi, the weapons forms are not the same as the open hand forms, and I've done quite a bit in my time, Hao style and the more popular Yang style.I've also seen quite a bit of Northern shaolin and the same is true there and with the hung-Gar that I have seen.
Let's make one clear point here. When folks say that open hand forms can be done with weapons they are already qualifying themselves ....they are only talking about weapons that can fit in one hand..............you wouldn't say that Sanchin was a Bo kata, or a Chinese broadsword kata.it has to be a Sai kata or something similar.

Marcus
Nathan looks a bit laboured there, that looks very similar to kakie which is in Goju....this guys use of energy seems a lot better to my eye

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-POM1_Eu ... ed&search=

he is actually revealing secrets here

[Bill Glasheen]

Postures are not the same as weapons.

True.

And your point is...

When folks say that open hand forms can be done with weapons they are already qualifying themselves ....they are only talking about weapons that can fit in one hand

I don't agree.

Shihonage was intentionally based upon an iaido movement. You disembowel and then decapitate. Put a forearm in the TWO hands instead of a sword, and you have shihonage.

Raffi's FMA are filled with exercises that can be done empty hand, with one weapon, and with two weapons. And the weapons can be knife or stick. Slight modifications are necessary, but they are otherwise the same postures and the same basic movements.

Too bad you can't train kobudo with me, Ray. I spend a lot of time showing the Seisan postures and movements that exist in a number of kobudo forms. And I am not alone. Other Okinawan styles work a lot to build the connectivity. Whether or not it was ever intended to be that way in the first place is moot. Martial arts which don't evolve and adapt to their surroundings, practitioners, and ways are dead martial arts.

As Larry Tan once said, "There are only so many ways to bend the human body. After a while, you start repeating yourself."

You will argue semantics about Uechi until you've convinced yourself of your point of view. But quite a few people consider Uechi Ryu to be a vital backbone to a fairly complete force continuum.

Some assembly (imagination) required...

- Bill

[Glenn]

We kinda have two discussions going on this thread now, but to comment on purchasing Sai, I got a pair of Shureido natural Sai (and some other Shureido items) on Ebay from seller odekogakusai (who lives in Okinawa) several years ago and have been quite happy with them. He still sells Shureido items on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/18-20-or-22-Shureid ... dZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/18-20-or-22-Shureid ... dZViewItem

[Stryke]

Marcus
Nathan looks a bit laboured there, that looks very similar to kakie which is in Goju....this guys use of energy seems a lot better to my eye

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-POM1_Eu ... ed&search=

he is actually revealing secrets here

hey Ray I agree , Still valid , just abit hard for my liking , but hey it`s a demo

Ive done the kakie drill from goju , your getting good at squinting mate

[jorvik]

Quote

I don't agree.

Shihonage was intentionally based upon an iaido movement. You disembowel and then decapitate. Put a forearm in the TWO hands instead of a sword, and you have shihonage


I'm sorry Bill I thought we were talking about Karate and more especially Uechi, not aikido .it is a well established fact that in the aiki arts the moves are all based on weapons techniques.that is why aikido is sometimes called "swordfighting without the sword"......and I've done Escrima as well, and although the moves from weapon to open hand are similar they are not exactly the same, you can't cut with a hand .but they where designed this way...Uechi wasn't

[Bill Glasheen]

Come to camp and train if you want to expand your concept about what "it" CAN be. Or not...

YOUR Uechi can be anything you want it to be, Ray. Put it in a box if that is useful to you.

If you're putting me in the camp of this Jonathan guy, well you're not going to have much success. I think what he's doing is fun and interesting, but I wouldn't say that Sanchin is a sai kata.

But again, what it was designed to be hardly matters if it evolves into something useful. I don't think the caveman conceived of a Boeing 747 rolling off the tarmac when the first wheel was invented. Should the government order a recall of all Detroit vehicles because the caveman never meant wheels to be powered by internal combustion engines?

What we choose to see in an artform can be a very personal thing. If it stands the test of time, then there must be something special about it.



Once again... The fact that so many movements in Uechi kata - particularly Seisan - are shared by so many different weapons forms says... something.

- Bill

[Stryke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL2RVgR9 ... ed&search=

if only said hypoyhesised rather than found

I think the more interesting comments would be there usage for grappling , and not blocking kicking and punching .

See any real functional karateka and that argument has some merit IMHO

although of course striking is a part of karate