Let's discuss cooperative drills - II

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill posted

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. And fencing people have their own shtick. But not for once have I expected my street opponent(s) (of doom) to pose and attack as (s)he might in some exercise.

Bill, let’s not start dancing in circles again. The ‘expectation’ is not of the conscious mind…I thought you knew that.

The expectation isn't in the unconscious mind either, Van.

No warrior lives his/her entire existence with the idea that every action just might imprint something bad that would cause him/her to do the wrong thing when facing a lethal threat. For example... I'm going to choose to love my fellow man and see the good in all people around me. But when a blade or a firearm is pointed my way, BOTH my conscious and my unconscious brain know that this is something very different.

And yet... all those years of loving my fellow man just might prevent that lethal threat from facing me in the first place.

I don't buy the obsession with imprinting, Van. Uechi yakusoku kumite are - to me - valuable tools that can be used to achieve a certain number of well-defined objectives. And I don't ever worry about what they don't accomplish. I've got other tools to do that.

To wit...

Again, the question that gets ducked over and over is why did Rabesa write this in his book.

Although your pre-arranged drills are great for certain things… I prefer something different to develop timing and readiness. I call it “You move…I move” _It not only encompass your ‘reading’ but timing as well.

I have answered this question three times, Van. I just answered it above.

As I see it, you're taking a passage from his book out of context to make a point. What Art said is self explanatory. He prefers a hammer to put a nail in a board and a saw to cut it in half. He prefers not to use a hammer to cut a board in half and a saw to drive a nail in it. That doesn't make either tool defective, does it?

The yakusoku kumites are useful tools that help us accomplish certain things. And there's no point making a big deal about what they don't accomplish. We've got all the tools we need to do whatever we want with our style. It's up to us to execute.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

In short, I would argue that the reasons for continuing to practice yakusoku kumite are twofold: first, if properly utilized, they can in fact serve as valuable training tools; second, they are familiar in some form to Uechi students everywhere, and can thus form a common language which allows students from different dojo to train together.

Nicely summarized, Greg.

After students have demonstrated a basic level of competence in the drill, any of the variations enumerated below can be introduced:

What matters most in your list of 15 variations, Greg, is that you aren't doing cookbook Uechi. No self-respecting teacher should be doing that with any subject. At some point the tools should be familiar to all so that one can commence with the goal of teaching specific principles.

I tend to tear kata apart the way you experiment with these yakusoku kumites, Greg. But to their credit, years of doing such prearranged kumites in many styles (Uechi, Goju, Wing Chun, and FMA) has given me the courage to move on and choreograph ditties on the spot. If I see something interesting in a form and I want the student to think about how that might work, I need a foundation of partner work to start from. If everyone is comfortable with their training partners and trusts them to push just hard enough to be honest, then this kind of "jazz partner work" can go on ad infinitum. It's kind of like teaching someone to read so you can teach them history.

More later.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

The expectation isn't in the unconscious mind either, Van.

No warrior lives his/her entire existence with the idea that every action just might imprint something bad that would cause him/her to do the wrong thing when facing a lethal threat.

The smart warrior is very careful to study and understand what will imprint something bad and what will imprint something good.

I’ll give you a quick example >>> when Maloney and I trained under the great John Farnam of Defense training international fame…we went through his famous ‘Duealatron’ scenario …set up so that we came up against a number of force on force situations designed to adrenalize you while holding a loaded gun and needing to manipulate the weapon safely as we reacted to find a solution under extreme stress of being killed.

We knew that if we made a fatal mistake, John would tell us to stop ‘you are dead’ and get back to the end of the line.

Most people are drilled in the military and in civilian range shoots, to reload a .45 1911 by inserting a full magazine and using the right thumb to depress the ‘slide release’ so to slide into battery.

He proved beyond question that the habit imprinted was a deadly one in combat, because under stress we had difficulty accessing the slide release fumbling the pistol and giving the enemy the advantage.

He then showed us the ‘right imprint’ practice of grasping the top of the slide forcefully with the left hand, yank it back and let it slide forward into battery.

Yes, that is something I would want to worry about very much.

[Van Canna]

A ‘warrior’ is aware of ‘good/bad imprints’ and exercises ‘due diligence’ in correcting his training, and more important, what he teaches to his students.

I don't buy the obsession with imprinting, Van. Uechi Yakusoku kumite are - to me - valuable tools that can be used to achieve a certain number of well-defined objectives. And I don't ever worry about what they don't accomplish. I've got other tools to do that.

And I don’t buy your argument, Bill, the drills, as I have stated over and over, are excellent tools for valid objectives but can be detrimental in imprinting deadly habits if the practitioner and the teacher is not careful and not cognizant of the pitfalls.

As I said…yes we have other tools to do what we know must be done according to well defined objectives, and these other tools use must be precisely grasped so as to achieve that delicate balance with the drills.

At some point the tools should be familiar to all so that one can commence with the goal of teaching specific principles.

My advise is maybe we should start with the principles , then we might just get to understand the use of the tools.

I enjoy reading about the Uchinadi as per Mr. McCarthy...

It reflects that early pioneers of the system first introduced the individual acts of physical violence than used the support of two person drills along those common/habitual acts of violence to build competencies.

Clearly the Uchinadi system’s two men drills were designed from the start to specifically deal with acts of habitual violence as opposed to our drills that were primarily designed for developing free sparring skills as per Master Uechi.

Are the skills we keep imprinting by repeating over and over, truly applicable for the dynamics of vicious street violence?

Ha...but you say there will be no imprinting and even if there is we should not worry over it, right?


Well then _ A quick question: In a real fight do you want to draw your hand back and chamber before striking?

[Van Canna]

.

As I see it, you're taking a passage from his book out of context to make a point. What Art said is self explanatory.

The out of context BS again...oh well...

I told you Rabesa and I were as one in these concepts along the way, and we are good friends…I would never misuse his words to make a personal point…so cut it out.

Rabesa is telling you in his book that he prefers something else, other than the drills to develop timing and readiness.

Open up his book, pages 65 and 66…read what’s written in them.

Also _ Read what he writes about the one step kumite and why.

On pg 66 read why he feels the way he does.

In the third and last paragraph…when he recounts his fighting experiences against formidable opponents and why he had to modify the kumite ‘back up’ into a spring forward when facing opponents that were built like trees.

What Rabesa is telling you Bill, is that the drills are excellent for a certain fighting objective and not so good for another, he is not knocking the drills, he is trying to make you understand the difference in concepts and the need to practice something else alongside the drills in the same manner that you are saying you have other tools to do whatecer it is you think should be done.

[Van Canna]

.

The Yakusoku kumites are useful tools that help us accomplish certain things. And there's no point making a big deal about what they don't accomplish. We've got all the tools we need to do whatever we want with our style. It's up to us to execute.

That is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it.

But I and many others disagree. There is much to be gained by making people/students understand what kumites don’t accomplish as well as what they accomplish so as to guide them in more adapt practice for a specific purpose to keep them safe.

At some point the tools should be familiar to all so that one can commence with the goal of teaching specific principles.

There you go… my advise is maybe we should start with the principles , then we might just get to understand the use of the tools.

is this a bad idea?

Let's see....

The very best treatise I have ever had the pleasure to read on this subject matter is the Uchinadi.

It reflects that early pioneers of the system first introduced the individual acts of physical violence than used the support of two person drills along those common/habitual acts of violence to build competencies.

Sounds good to me.

Clearly the Uchinadi system’s two men drills were designed from the start to specifically deal with acts of habitual violence as opposed to our drills that were primarily designed for developing free sparring skills as per Master Uechi.

[Bill Glasheen]

the Uchinadi system’s two men drills were designed from the start to specifically deal with acts of habitual violence

This is good.

our drills ... were primarily designed for developing free sparring skills as per Master Uechi.

This is also good.

In fact, I RELY on our drills doing just that. I don't allow free sparring in my dojo until someone has passed a series of tests specifically on the yakusoku kumite drills (Kyu kumite) as well as other basic skills (Sanchin, hojo undo, Kanshiwa, Kanshiwa bunkai, kote kitae, ashi kitae, and ukemi).

No problem!

The many, many varieties of jiyu kumite are important - including special varieties taught only in my dojo. (Every experienced teacher has his/her special venue.) They teach important skills that can't be learned safely in other venues.



- Bill

[Van Canna]

Yeah, Bill and where in hell have I disagreed with it

And I also wanted to say that some skills are very dangerous to imprint

[Bill Glasheen]

And I also wanted to say that some skills are very dangerous to imprint

Like chambering in Sanchin kata?

Like using muscle isolation to work my hamstrings in the weight room?

Like making "the pin" a goal in high school wrestling?

When should we care?

Can we acknowledge that a collection of uncontrollable (lower brain) and controllable forces come into play to create the response that just MIGHT improve the odds of survival in innumerable lethal force scenarios?

And is it possible that a collection of exercises with innumerable artifacts come into play to create the controllable part of any response?

I am with you 100% when we talk about what is useful and what is exercise artifact. It's the "So what?" part that is causing the hiccup here.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

I am with you 100% when we talk about what is useful and what is exercise artifact. It's the "So what?" part that is causing the hiccup here.

But of course...and your way or mine of thinking, can be viewed differently by people of much diverse backgrounds and experiences in actual combat, true violence professionals, something that we are not.

And so the 'so what' that we have been discussing now and in the past shall continue to be a point of contention forever. After all what would the forums be without dissent?

The ‘skills’ we ‘imprint’ onto our neural pathways, for the purpose of defensive action…by virtue of our practice _ revolve on their Integrity based on one crucial factor:

* How the human body functions under stress.

As we do what we do, it makes good sense, to study and understand how the limitations in every aspect of any training are apt to affect our response actions under stress.

These are the hard lessons revealed to me when training under lethal force instructors, more than anyone else in this world, especially the ones who have been involved in deadly force incidents … the ones best to trust in this very critical aspect of survival mechanics.


Investigating all aspects of what we do and understanding them, is akin to the discovery process in trial prep before taking the case to a judge and jury.

A very good book on this is Siddle's 'Sharpening the warrior's edge' _ lots to learn from it.

What really comes down to is _ In order to improve our reactionary efficiency, we must focus on weakening the generally identified negative neuronal connections and strengthening the positive ones.

Then, when we are faced with, for example, an unexpected dilemma or attack ...sudden or impending ... our brain will be more apt to default to the positive, appropriate response, not to the negative ones we may have programmed unwittingly.

It is all there in a nutshell.

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm with you on everything you wrote, Van.

I do need to read Bruce's book. Damn... it's been decades since we last saw each other. I owe him that. I've read several books and articles that reference this and other work by him, and Bruce gave me some unpublished material that I've read. But I own him a read on that classic.

What you wrote above though got me to thinking about the evolution of all this material, Van. Not too long ago, RBSD "experts" were saying that gross motor coordination was the only dependable thing available to you in lethal force encounters. But recent work by LeDoux and more recently published books by Grossman have convinced me that complex motor coordination is available to the gifted and the highly trained. Grossman talks about some subjects performing with phenominal abilities in "condition red" and even to some extent in "condition black."

This has convinced me of two things: 1) genetics matter, and 2) training matters. And I have my own experience with overcoming my familial tremor (sensitive to sympathetic stimulation) enough to do 4 years of open heart surgery. Mind you I couldn't do caffeine on surgery days, but...

Yes, I love and look for the gross motor in my martial moves. But I also now realize that the highly trained can take advantage of the highly emotionally hijacked. One classic example I come up with for students is the idea that severe emotional hijacking will cause someone to flail. Meanwhile, we spend tens of thousands of repetitions learning the slightly complex movement of thrusting an arm right up the middle. The shortest distance...

More later.

Bill

[hoshin]

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But I also now realize that the highly trained can take advantage of the highly emotionally hijacked. One classic example I come up with for students is the idea that severe emotional hijacking will cause someone to flail
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i may have misunderstood your point Bill but it is my assumption that if i meet a BG( or B guys) out on the street. he will not be under emtional duress he wont be flailing. a real attacker will be looking at you as prey. it is interesting that when preditors who are looking at their prey they do not have the same chemical dump as the prey. so the BG if he has any motor skill change will probablly be well accustomed to it, by for more than the average joe.

[Bill Glasheen]

_______________________________________________________________________
But I also now realize that the highly trained can take advantage of the highly emotionally hijacked. One classic example I come up with for students is the idea that severe emotional hijacking will cause someone to flail
_______________________________________________________________________

i may have misunderstood your point Bill but it is my assumption that if i meet a BG( or B guys) out on the street. he will not be under emtional duress he wont be flailing. a real attacker will be looking at you as prey. it is interesting that when preditors who are looking at their prey they do not have the same chemical dump as the prey. so the BG if he has any motor skill change will probablly be well accustomed to it, by for more than the average joe.

A few thoughts.

First...

Why does everyone on these Forums assume that "a real attacker" is the predator of doom with invincible powers and awesome control? To start with, (s)he is a social idiot for going against the moral and legal laws of society. And then what? Do all these "real attackers" work out in the gym full time just so they can hide behind the bushes and reign terror on us? Do they have special factories where they make "real attackers"?

My special forces instructor constantly would remind us to see the "normal man" in virtually all bullys. Motorcycle gang thug? Spends all his life sitting on his butt. Probably out of shape. From "the hood"? Not as dangerous as the fellow you meet training for football, and that guy's too busy to be making mayhem.

Second...

One of the scariest situations I ever encountered was an attempt at a set-up by three punks. It was holiday time in Charlottesville, and most of the students were home. I was walking home from the gym when I was accosted by these three. To make a long story short, I played a psychological game with them. I pretended to be a hapless idiot, and told the guy he'd probably kick my a$$. I kept talking nonsense and buying time. I knew the two walking behind me were the ones who I had to worry most about, but I pretended I didn't notice them. It went on and on, and I kept frustrating the guy who wanted to antagonize me into a battle. Finally when he was so pi$$ed that he wasn't thinking straight, I walked him right into the path of an oncoming car.

Yes... the OTHER guy can get emotionally hijacked too!

My point is that loss of fine and complex motor coordination makes ANY person throw looping, flailing blows. If it could happen to us, then LOOK for it to happen in THEM. Your antagonist is just as human after all. Meanwhile if we do tens of thousands of Sanchins in walking meditation, we have a better chance than the average bloke of sending a blow right up the middle while a hijacked thug is throwing a haymaker. First one who hits wins!

That's my point.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

The advantage street attackers will always have is one of intent whereas we would be stuck in reaction mode no matter how aware we’d like to think we are. And I would rather mindset my training, Bill, by visualizing them bigger stronger, faster, and more skilled in the ‘hurt game’ …but that’s me.

I saw someone knifed to death once as a teenager and I know what I saw.

This was the most valuable lesson taught by John Farnam in his deadly force scenarios.

Complex motor coordination is available to the gifted and the highly trained.
Grossman talks about some subjects performing with phenomenal abilities in "condition red" and even to some extent in "condition black."

This is one of those yes and no or maybe situations, because according to Mas Ayoob and John Farnam, some red and black conditions have a way to get redder and blacker in short order and in ways to short circuit genetics and training reverting the ‘attacked’ to primal ape-man survival instincts, and simpler movements.

They were very emphatic over it. The KISS concept is paramount in deadly force on force conditioning.

Things change, time for training may become limited somehow, and then there is sickness, disease and age.

The reason why they teach the base methods and recommend adherence to them over time to minimize mental stall.

I saw someone knifed to death once as a teenager and I know what I saw. The reason why I have my own ‘special views’ on this stuff.

[Van Canna]

Bill,

On the business of sanchin chambering, let’s see if we agree on something…

Can you tell me why we draw the arm back to strike? Occasionally this question comes up from the students.

When I posted: And I also wanted to say that some skills are very dangerous to imprint.

You responded: Like chambering in Sanchin kata?

I don't think that was my implication in Sanchi kata.

So why do you/we chamber in sanchin.