Obama making his speech to the schools...

[MikeK]

Treason a badge of honor? You mean like this: Area where census worker died has troubled history

Huh?

[Jason Rees]

Treason a badge of honor? You mean like this: Area where census worker died has troubled history

Unrelated, Gene. Not that that's stopped you in the past, either.

[IJ]

"It was just last week that criticizing this President was racism."

Of course, Obama said that it wasn't, and I don't remember the Bush administration stepping up to the plate to encourage criticism and debunk the criticism=working for al qaeda nonsense. Luckily, Hannity and fellow nuts have forgotten that line of reasoning. Let's face facts though: some people are going to criticize the President no matter what, but there's no question in my mind that in a country with substantial racist undercurrents, an incremental outrage will be added for black Presidents. You won't always be able to tell what it is, but black people know when they're being looked at funny in a store, or watched more closely. We also know before the anecdote that many people are subconsciously racist, and for evidence from researchers look into the IAT test:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/d ... atest.html

If you want, look up "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell and read his admission that he harbors subconscious racism against blacks (oh, and he's black).

"Do you think there are some that won't be hosed by nationalized healthcare delivered at the lowest common denominator?"

I agree, government run healthcare is bad, and that's why we should dismantle SCHIP and Medicare, and Medicaid. Whoops, that'd be nuts and no one wants to do it. My bad. Anyway, many of the insurance portability concepts in the proposed legislation are being independently suggested by national organizations of insurers. See commentary in NEJM within the last month. What else... oh, we'd be much better off without a thousand systems with increased overhead costs. There's another good NEJM editorial on that. If the government could set some basic standards and insurance all adopted them, much of that wasted cash could go to care. The government is the largest purchaser of healthcare in the USA, much like McDonald's and beef. If McDonald's and similar companies enact a change, the suppliers jump and ask "how high." Thus, one can clean up processing and monitoring of meat almost overnight (see relevant sections of Fast Food Nation). If the US government sets the lead on some issues by insisting on certain standards, for example:

Not paying for hospital acquired:
--UTI
--preventable DVT
--retained foreign objects and wrong site surgery
--post op wound infections

Insisting on hospital standards for:
--lab quality and rapid response to abnormal values
--responses to preventable deaths and near misses, aka sentinel events

Then all insurers can ask for the same, or not need to. I have watched such standards and requirements improve hospital practice at several institutions and now work on several committees and projects at my current job:

Anticoagulation taskforce--enacting requirements of the Joint Commission
Patient Safety Committee--multiple measures from falls to bedsores to iv pumps and so on
Critical Values Committee--ensuring prompt responses to dangerous values

...and on a few more that aren't driven by external mandates, such as a communications project which was sorely needed to improve MD-RN connectivity to handle emergencies. So I've watched these changes occur in real time in several institutions. Do you have any first hand experience with these matters?

[Glenn]

Interesting, one teacher who retired in the Spring taught 20 kids a song and suddenly two months after it is posted on YouTube it is a national conspiracy? It sure is a good thing school kids have never been used by Republicans that way, oh wait but they have. As usual, a big deal is being made over something indirectly involving the current president that got no negative attention when it directly involved a past president.

[Jason Rees]

Of course, Obama said that it wasn't...

No he didn't. He said most of it wasn't.

some people are going to criticize the President no matter what, but there's no question in my mind that in a country with substantial racist undercurrents

Substantial? Heh. To buy that line of reasoning, you'd have to believe that everyone who wasn't racist voted for Obama, which leaves you with... say it with me... opposition to Obama is racist. Love the circular logic there.

If you want, look up "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell and read his admission that he harbors subconscious racism against blacks (oh, and he's black).

Then he has issues to deal with. Seriously, I don't get worked up if I see a black man in a uniform or a business suit. Gang members, regardless of their skin color on the other hand... yeah, it's a class thing, not a race thing.

I agree, government run healthcare is bad, and that's why we should dismantle SCHIP and Medicare, and Medicaid.

Shouldn't we figure out how to fix those and make them solvent before we expand them?!?

[Glenn]

Most of the country's schools don't do the pledge of allegience because it violates their parents' sensitivities.

Jason you'll be comforted to know that in a 2004 Gallup survey77% of teens aged 13-17 responded that the pledge is recited in their class, with 59% saying they recite it at least once a week and 50% saying they recite it daily, and that 34 states have laws requiring schools to include recitation of the pledge daily or weekly.

The pledge is another issue that has seen considerable flip-flops. In 1943, Christian groups won a Supreme Court ruling that said public schools could not force students to recite the pledge (this was the pledge as originally adopted without "under God" in it, and their objection was based on their belief that reciting it placed country above God). Then in 1954 Congress ignored the whole separation of church and state thing and passed a law adding the words "under God" to the pledge, and suddenly Christian groups were all for students having to recite it and against any attempts to take the pledge out of schools, while the secular and non-Christian folks felt that the pledge was taken away from them.

The 1943 law still stands though, students still cannot be forced to recite the pledge. At least one group is trying to make sure students and parents are aware that the students have the choice to not recite it, as a way of preventing objecting parents from taking schools to task for the erroneous belief that their kids have to recite it, but in an interview of the head of this group on Fox News the Fox people openly objected to any publication of this law. And of course they opened that segment with a group of school kids reciting the pledge, highlighting that it is the most pervasive indoctrination (of both nationalism and religion in its current form) currently occurring in the U.S. According to the common usage of the label "socialism" these days, the pledge stands as the most common expression of socialism most Americans will ever experience.

[Glenn]

[delete of an accidental duplicate post]

[Bill Glasheen]

There's a diversionary tactic going on here that needs to be called.

Making students participate in propaganda songs that praise the actions of a single political personality is objectionable and abhorrent. That's very different from allowing individuals to criticize a president or president's policies. Apples and ora... no, apples and rocks.

President Bush himself repeatedly defended the rights of individuals to criticize the president and policies - including on foreign soil after an Iraqi reporter threw two shoes at him (which he deftly ducked both times). Here we have attempted assault and the president follows the incident up with an impromptu defense of free speech. For a syntactically challenged speaker, it was quite the classy follow-up.

As for Jimmy boy and his ridiculous racism accusation, I have just one response.

...............................................There you go again!


Individuals with no argument resort to name calling. Jimmy has a history both of incompetence of leadership and of an inability to articulate a credible vision for the nation to follow.

Nuff said.

- Bill

[Jason Rees]

Glenn, thank you for clarifying that most schools actually still pursue this... however, that was not my point. My point was that parents themselves often object to their kids participating even in the Pledge of Allegience; how much more must this song offend their sensibilities as individuals?

However, I have a problem with one statement of yours:

but in an interview of the head of this group on Fox News the Fox people openly objected to any publication of this law.

I often find that criticism of Fox News often ends up being that they didn't trot to the liberal line. So I'd love to see your source for this.

Interesting, one teacher who retired in the Spring taught 20 kids a song and suddenly two months after it is posted on YouTube it is a national conspiracy?

Who said conspiracy? I think you, Bill, and Hillary are the only ones seeing conspiracies...

But seriously. I said it was a trend. There are other videos like it out there on Youtube, and we've already gone over the obnoxious praise lathered on the Chosen One during the election cycle and during the honeymoon phase.

It sure is a good thing school kids have never been used by Republicans that way, oh wait but they have . As usual, a big deal is being made over something indirectly involving the current president that got no negative attention when it directly involved a past president.

As Bill says in his post, apples and rocks. The president, Congress and FEMA mentioned after the nation as a whole in coming to the aid of Katrina victims, in a rhyme made original out of wholecloth... and a song made to praise a deity, with Obama's full name juxtaposed with Jesus'? Apples and rocks, Gene. Apples and rocks.

[IJ]

I'm disappointed that the racism thing is being thrown out by Bill and Jason "because it's automatically BS" or something. And the logic is circular (no?).

The reality is that people can vote for someone even if they harbor racist feelings. Further, there are millions and millions of people who didn't vote for him, and this isn't about majority racist or not racist; I don't think the Obama voters are the ones comparing him to Hitler or campaigning in their churches that they hope God takes him, or the ones responsible for the spike in credible threats against the President. I KNOW there would be plenty of hate for Hillary as well, BUT having watched interviews with people (say, West Va) openly stating they voted for Hillary in the primary because they weren't comfortable with his race, well, that gives me an inkling some of the dislike is racist. Kinda definitional. And as for subconscious racism, which I've provided links to, it's real, and JR indicating he doesn't have any because he isn't conscious of any is irrelevant. It is very difficult to imagine that all of the talk we have in private that I've hear or in public when there's a Getts shooting in NYC or when Crash shows white people making an effort not to be nervous when sketchy looking black people approach them, is made up by the liberal elite.

The IAT data is there; go look at it. Gladwell has issues, yeah; many of us do, which is what you'd see if you looked into the test and what it shows. His issue doesn't make him nuts, uncommon, unreasonable or any of that; our society links black with crime in imagery and public discourse and we can't very well completely ignore those images.

There is also recent survey data I read about again in Harvard Magazine which discussed admitted vs unconscious racial biases. There was more bias among republicans and conservatives, although they were more honest and or aware of it; the dems / liberals were overall less racist by a titch but less honest and or less aware. The substantial amount of SELF REPORTED racism negates any attempt by anyone here to discount race as a probable factor in some of Obama's criticism. We're not colorblind; let's not kid ourselves.

Now, after we're done being delusionally just and bias free, let's remember that we've made great strides in combating racism and it is nothing like the murderous, divisive, country splitting, murder / riot inducing, Constitution altering force it was--a mere half century ago.

Lessee... things were violently racist here from the landfall of Columbus until the last few decades, and then hundreds of years of bias evaporated. Yessir! Sounds good to me.

[Jason Rees]

I'm disappointed that the racism thing is being thrown out by Bill and Jason "because it's automatically BS" or something. And the logic is circular (no?).

If I'd really said something like that, Ian, I'm sure you would have quoted it for real.

Do I think racism exists in this country? Absolutely. You can't tell me that most of the 'african-american community' still supports Obama at the numbers they do somehow does not have to do with racism.

Do I think there are backwards parts of rural America that don't incubate it? Hell yes, I do. In more than one racial demographic.

Do I think racism is rank and putrid throughout our prison system? Hell yes, I do. In all racial demographics.

Do I think racism is a problem in the inner-cities? Hell yes, I do. In more than one racial demographic.

Do I think any of the issues in which people are organized and publically opposing Obama on have anything to do with race? No. Until proof is presented that a group opposing Obama on healthcare, the economy, or any other aspect is racist, people like former President Carter should keep their yaps shut, or they'll just add to the growing cloud of discontent.

The Straight White Male can only be the boogy-man for so long, Ian. Sooner or later, they're going to have to find another tune in the nation that raised a black man to the highest seat in the land.

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm disappointed that the racism thing is being thrown out by Bill and Jason "because it's automatically BS" or something. And the logic is circular (no?).

It's a red herring, Ian. It's also patently offensive to people with credible political perspectives.

I'm frankly not sure how racism enters the picture here. Obama wasn't the descendant of slaves. He's a Kenyan/European raised by a white American family. What the hell is that? I grew up amongst more blacks and speak better black than he does.

Have you seen the movie Harold & Kumar Escape from Guantanamo Bay? This whole thing conjurs up the scene of Kumar (from India) claiming racial profiling when he's pulled aside at the airport for a special search. When the TSA worker reminds Kumar that he's black, Kumar laughs and says he looks about as black as Michael Bolton.



That doesn't go over well, but then the scene is meant to make fun of the whole racism accusation tactic in a country with people from 4 corners of the earth. (FWIW, Kumar was hiding pot. The fuss he created succeeded in get him out of the special search.)

This whole Jimmy Carter thing is an eye roller, Ian. Maybe you're too young to remember. It truly is a "There you go again!" moment. Back in 1984 when it was President Carter vs. Governor Reagan in the era of stagflation and the Iran hostage crisis, Jimmy tried the racism label against Reagan. Why? He had to, because he quite frankly was suking as a president. He tried it during the debate, and this is when Reagan countered with the famous "There you go again" line. It didn't stick, because it was irrelevant. Jimmy stunk as a president, and Reagan ended up winning in a landslide. The voters decided so.

So when we see none other than Jimmy Carter fanning the flames of racial hatred once again when he isn't getting his way, please understand why we believe "it's automatically BS," because there's a damn good chance that it is.

Quite frankly I thought this whole thing got settled at The White House over a beer.



As Yogi Berra would say, Deja vu all over again.

- Bill the Irish/Lithuanian, ex-Catholic, PhD, martial artist, flaming heterosexual, dog owning, libertarian scientist

[IJ]

Oh, JR, JR... black support for Obama is clearly racist, and the almost uniformly white opposition is clearly not racist. What if I had said the reverse? You'd tell me... "you can't have it both ways." What would Bill tell you? "There you go again." It's laughable. CLEARLY, there is support for Obama because of his race, and I'm amazed at your confidence that his detractors are uniformly pure of motive. Did I say it was their primary issue? Nope. Are they organizing rallies around his race? Nope--although I guess that'd be the only evidence you'd be willing to consider? You identify racism throughout our society and have yet to say a thing about SELF REPORTED racism in both parties and subconscious racism well documented by researchers--and Obama's critics are as innocent as the beaten snow. Ok--there's nothing more to discuss with you.

Bill, what's a red herring? A red herring could be.... pointing out that Obama is not the descendant of slaves. Or that you speak better "black" than he does (you've met?). Who cares??? Do you think that racists pause to consider that before harboring feelings??? Har har. Let's be concrete: there's a healthy movement of "birthers," people who insist that Obama is illegitimate for the Presidency because he was, you know, born in Kenya, then the black helicopters and one world dictators had him delivered to Hawaii for his fake birth certificate to be made. We KNOW that Mccain was born outside the United States, but while I was exposed to oodles of complaints about Obama (that muslim guy) just flipping through news channels, I had to google McCain's story to hear about any opposition. Is it possible, just possible, that SOME of the dislike for Obama and the interest in his birthplace has to do with the fact he is "other?" I guess not.

Some other details here:

You may not have picked up on this, Bill, but that scene in Harold and Kumar is funny in a Chris Rock sort of way. Remember his excellent piece about not getting beat up by the police? He had harsh words for irresponsible blacks AND legitimate rage about inequity of treatment for the rest of them. If you don't think xenophobia and racial profiling affects the way law enforcement / public suspicion about who's getting on their plane exists, ask those muslims that were tossed off their flight for praying before hand.

Next you point out that calling racism isn't an effective political tool. **This may mean that playing the black card isn't wise, but it doesn't mean that racism in Obama opposition is absent** For one, do you think that Americans like to be told they're not color blind, whether or not they are? We think this whole racial divide thing was settled over a single beer? Or does the fact that that moment had to occur at all suggest we still have some issues?

No more red herrings today, their stocks are plummeting from overfishing

...does anyone want to even mention the self reported and subconscious racism data that I presented? Bueller? Bueller?

[Glenn]

I often find that criticism of Fox News often ends up being that they didn't trot to the liberal line. So I'd love to see your source for this.

Personal observation, I watched the interview. They were accusing him of wanting teachers to read a "Miranda Act" (in their words) to students before each reciting, and keep pushing that accusation which they apparently pulled out of thin air (they offered no evidence that his group had ever advocated anything of that nature), even after he had repeatedly stated that the goal was merely to create a letter sent home to parents informing them of the 1943 Supreme Court decision. When their diversionary tactic did not fluster him, they moved on to trying to discredit the notion that parents should be informed parents of this right, and when he then made the case that this would help schools by reducing complaints by parents, they next moved on to trying to discredit his organization and then ended the interview. Fox News had no interest in hearing his side or reasoning, they only had him on to attack him to push their agenda (like so many interviews on all news channels these days unfortunately).

Who said conspiracy? I think you, Bill, and Hillary are the only ones seeing conspiracies...

I think it was you who got Bill going on this being a conspiracy

As Bill says in his post, apples and rocks. The president, Congress and FEMA mentioned after the nation as a whole in coming to the aid of Katrina victims, in a rhyme made original out of wholecloth... and a song made to praise a deity, with Obama's full name juxtaposed with Jesus'? Apples and rocks, Gene. Apples and rocks.

Bill was referring to Ian's posts with his "apples and rocks" comment about comparing opposition of songs praising a politician to racism. My inference from Bill's comment about being opposed to songs glorifying politicians is that he would not be supportive of the song about Bush either. As for the two songs, the intent in creating them was the same. However one happened to be at a White House event covered by the media and one at a local school event and didn't make the media until months later, so in that aspect they are "apples and rocks" in that the one praising Bush was meant to make a media statement while the one praising Obama was just meant for the kids' parents.

Oh, and I'm not Gene

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill, what's a red herring?

red herring
n.
1. A smoked herring having a reddish color.
2. Something that draws attention away from the central issue.

Kumar cried racial profiling in the airport, and managed to sneak through security with pot and a bong. The racial profiling cry drew the TSA worker's attention away from the job at hand.

And irony of all ironies... it didn't work out so well on the plane. There his stupidity (smoking pot in the lavatory) combined with real racial profiling merged together to bite him in the arse. Bong=bomb. Guantanamo Bay, here I come. That karma... she's a beach you know.

This is starting to get like Bob Hope explaining a dumb joke to get a few extra laughs.

Why not start another thread on racism? The topic doesn't belong in this thread.

No more red herrings today, their stocks are plummeting from overfishing

If only we could get those fishermen to keep their boats by the docks...



- Bill