please tell me about shotokan

[chalkdust]

Yes he wants my movements to be big, and also talks about expansion and contraction form very big to very small and vice versa. as well as shifts form low to high or relaxed to tense

I did ask him if eventually the stances should become more and more narrow or shallow but he said not for the stances I was working on.

I am doing LOTS of hip movement and rotation i these classes. as well as focusing on posture and foot and knee positioning, and staying low with my knees hips and ankles loose. ad i am working towards relaxing until the right movement of power but i am still very tense....

We do lots of kata and basic work, and we also work on shifting which looks to be methods of getting out of the way and counter attacking. We have had a little free full contact sparring.

[mhosea]

Those are all about covering ground. This is where Shotokan does very well. They don't mess around with "small ball." They penetrate from afar and dispatch with the opponent as quickly as possible.

Yeah, I agree with that. However, regardless of its usefulness, I wouldn't attribute this to a self-defense motivation, as this would tend to contradict the teachings of the antecedent styles to Shotokan, not to mention Gichin Funakoshi's 17th precept. Granted, the precept is open to some interpretation, but the most natural interpretation, IMO, is that the lower stances are emphasized to beginners for learning/training purposes, rather than being for beginners because they are the most effective things to learn first for self-defense purposes. For an extreme contrast, compare to Matsumura Seito.

I think the emphasis on these long stances are a result of Yoshitaka Funakoshi's lead. The techniques Yoshitaka preferred are now hallmarks of Shotokan fighting style.

[kyushoguy]

Bill if they keep asking the question I'll keep answering.


No one here seems to know the history of shotokan apart from me.

If you are training for a real fight you try to make your training as realisitc as possible.

How realistic are long stances and straight punches?

How often do people block in fights?

How often do you have the room to do head high kicks in a real fight?

Why practice punching and kicking the air when you have partners and bags?

why is it importent what a technique looks like?

Dojo karate, Dry land swimmers, Point scorers, Air punchers, competition Karate or Self Protection it's your choice.

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill if they keep asking the question I'll keep answering.

That is your prerogative, so long as you maintain the proper decorum. We welcome your erudition.

No one here seems to know the history of shotokan apart from me.

We've heard it here before. And I've heard it refuted by those who actually practice and teach Shotokan.

There's much hyperbole and venom in your description of Shotokan. I don't know of its origin, and I don't need to know. But I do know inaccurate statements when I see them. I and others will challenge them. That's what we do here.

It would help if you provided references with some of your statements. That way we can assess both the source and its context.

If you are training for a real fight you try to make your training as realisitc as possible.

How realistic are long stances and straight punches?

How realistic is a bench press?

How often do people block in fights?

I'm sure you will tell us.

Meanwhile... I'm betting you have no earthly idea what many of the movements are in Shotokan karate kata. I'm betting you are one of a legion of people who uses the "b" word when describing a third of the techniques in kata. You call yourself "kyushoguy." Where have you been in the kyusho craze of the 1990s? Have you not heard the statement "There are no blocks in karate"? Do you know what the word uke means?

How often do you have the room to do head high kicks in a real fight?

I believe you're talking about Taequondo and not Shotokan. And for that matter, you're confusing sport karate with self-defense. There is a difference, you know. Do you think a boxer envisions himself fighting on the street with 12 ounce gloves?

Do you think Joe Pomfret cared what you think about high kicks when he KOed his opponents with them in the MMA ring? Could you do that? Meanwhile... Joey used to be in the military. He knows how to kill a bad guy.

Do you think Gary Khoury cared what you think about high kicks when he won his many WKF tournaments with them? Could you do that? Meanwhile... Gary is now serving in the military. He posts on these forums. He knows a think or two about how to kill a bad guy.

Why practice punching and kicking the air when you have partners and bags?

Umm.... How realistic is a bag? Are you not aware that the FBI switched from bullseye targets to silhouettes because they are more realistic? Why hit a bag when you can hit Bob?

Two can play this pissing contest. Is it helpful?

As for hitting people, I have some Marine friends who need some meat puppets in Quantico. They'll happily take you and any of your buddies as volunteers. So would my first Japanese karate instructor who loved to hit people. $#^&^*!!!!!

Know what I mean?

why is it importent what a technique looks like?

I don't know... because we want to impress the chicks watching at the side of the gym? A guy's gotta exercise all his legs you know...

This is getting silly, don't you think?

Dojo karate, Dry land swimmers, Point scorers, Air punchers, competition Karate or Self Protection it's your choice.

I highly recommend you read Rory Miller's most recent book. He and others have a very good understanding of why many people do what they do in this vast martial world, and they don't have any delusions over what any one practice will do for them. And for what it's worth, Rory is a professional. He dispatches with bad buys for a living, and teaches others how to do it. He writes and publishes about it.

And he practices a TRADITIONAL martial art. Puts the fancy white pajamas on and everything.

For what it's worth, the Marine Corp Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) encourages its participants to practice a TRADITIONAL martial art as part of their program. Hmm... Why would they do that? Do you think a Marine knows a thing or two about how to off somebody?

It isn't helpful to engage in gratuitous bashing. We all have our reasons for doing what we do - not the least of which is we enjoy it. And if you don't enjoy it, you're not going to get off your booty and put the years of work in it that it takes to get any good at it. No, not all of us are going to be shipped off to Afghanistan, and we don't handle prisoners for a living. But there's plenty of space out there for all kinds of people to enjoy what they are doing, and learn while they're at it. Serendipity is the operative word here.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Bill if they keep asking the question I'll keep answering.

No one here seems to know the history of shotokan apart from me.

Thanks for that Kyushoguy, that little chuckle was a good one.

[MikeK]

I think the emphasis on these long stances are a result of Yoshitaka Funakoshi's lead. The techniques Yoshitaka preferred are now hallmarks of Shotokan fighting style.

Close Mike, but Shotokan has never really been that monolithic. While Yoshitaka was one influence others like Egami, Kase, Nakayama and even Hironori Ōtsuka amongst others all influenced their take on the Funakoshi's style. That's not to mention the influence of Japanese martial arts like kendo, judo and sumo that many of the students brought with them to the Okinawan art. Many of the practitioners did the right thing and made the Okinawan art their own. Pick up a copy of Ohshima's Notes on Training and you'll see concepts and principles that are clearly from Japanese martial arts.

I am doing LOTS of hip movement and rotation i these classes. as well as focusing on posture and foot and knee positioning, and staying low with my knees hips and ankles loose. ad i am working towards relaxing until the right movement of power but i am still very tense....

Yup, sounds like what I learned and continue to learn in a slightly different way. Hip movement is the key to many brands of Shotokan. It's where power is generated and movement initiated. Relaxation of the body is another important part that many people don't get in Shotokan.

We do lots of kata and basic work, and we also work on shifting which looks to be methods of getting out of the way and counter attacking. We have had a little free full contact sparring.

I don't do much with kata anymore though I teach and train from them sometimes. Now the shifting is always in our training and one of the reasons why we train the hip movement so much. Have someone come at you with a mid-level lunge punch and just as they're making contact turn from your hips. Then try it by just turning the shoulders.

Some different flavors of Shotokan kata...

Shotokai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nosqi8h7 ... re=related

JKA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awq272gO ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrAiTCcatbY

And one from Shito-ryu just for reference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmLQq_q_YMg

Here's a bit of formal torite from Ohshima's group. If you look you can see the moves come right from the kata.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6Oq9mkKR94

and of course some by the book throws from the book Karate-do Kyohan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndz_71vTsiU&NR=1

Not the posture and foot placement of the guy doing the throwing, they really do mean something.

[jorvik]

The problem that I have with all this is that I am a "martialist"...I don't give an arse what a style is called I just want it to work for me..and those clips don't....same ole schitt.somebody running at you from half a mile away..and wow you get to defend against it .....I think the problem with Japanese martial arts is that they are heavily sword based.....I don't believe that kind of thing is relevant to streetfighting...don't get me wrong I really love the old Koryo stuff...but somebody launching an attack from 30 feet away is dumb,absurd, silly, ridiculous.........if you look back at where this stuff started at folks like Choki Motubu etc then Yeah that's good stuff.he fought a boxer...........it's kinda like Aikido we heard all this wonderful stories about how tough Uechiba was..and yet the Aikido we saw was krap..folks falling over.................in my own humble experience, only to discover years later that what Ueshiba's son did was not what Ueshiba did.......check out " Iwama Aikido for that.seems to be the same here.................I think that maybe the case here..eiother way I am seriously unimpressed

[MikeK]

I don't give an arse what a style is called I just want it to work for me..and those clips don't....same ole schitt.somebody running at you from half a mile away..and wow you get to defend against it

Don't forget Ray, this is a close to verbatim demonstration of the techniques from Karate-do Kyhon which Ohshima translated and did the pictures for. So the attacks are like those in the book. But all of the throws are close in techniques, they have to be, so while the attack may be from a distance the actual technique isn't and they do work off of in close attacks just as well.

[MikeK]

If you are training for a real fight you try to make your training as realisitc as possible.

Yes! Though the base of what we do is Shotokan (Ohshima lineage) we wear street clothes, shoes, watches, eye glasses, belt buckles, hats and anything else you'd walk out of the house with. Nothing like one of the guys trying to kick you with a pair of cowboy boots to help you focus. We also train outside, in the rain, in the mud, in the woods, heat and even sometimes in the house. We learn to use tables, chairs, walls and doorways to our advantage. We sometimes train with real and practice guns, knives, sticks and anything else laying around that can be thrown, jabbed or swung. How about you?

How realistic are long stances and straight punches?

It depends. A trained person may use straight punches, hooks, shovel punches, overhands and a lot of other stuff. An untrained person is usually a little more limited. So which do you train to encounter?

How often do people block in fights?

Quit a lot, but they're often using their head to block the punch. A block, yes there are blocks int karate, will usually come off of a surprise attack, it's how we're wired. But the blocking motions in Shotokan should be connected with movement (tai sabaki, irimi, retreating) and used to gain positional advantage by making room, moving the attacking limb or even moving the opponent. For example you don't stop the attack to your midsection with a gedan berai you sweep the attack away giving you a chance to counter or get behind them.

How often do you have the room to do head high kicks in a real fight?

Watched a karate newbie knock a much bigger high school football player on his butt by kicking him in the chin. Didn't take a lot of room just a bit of flexibility.

Why practice punching and kicking the air when you have partners and bags?

Partners and bags are a first and second choice but sometimes you need to just do some visualizing and work through some movements.

why is it importent what a technique looks like?

Because if it looks functional where the person is balanced, using their body to generate power and not using any needless motion then it's probably a good technique. Of course someone can knock you out with bad technique but then maybe not.

Dojo karate, Dry land swimmers, Point scorers, Air punchers, competition Karate or Self Protection it's your choice.

And what style is good for self protection? What secret techniques does the self protection crowd know that the karate guy doesn't? Is it more a matter of how ones trains rather than what one trains?

[Bill Glasheen]

How often do people block in fights?

Quit a lot, but they're often using their head to block the punch.

Comment of the day!

- Bill

[MikeK]

Ohshima student Tom Muzila.

Sparring with multiples. Lot's of Shotokan (SKA) principles like irimi, tai sabaki and pre-emption being used...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzI8JK3H ... re=related

...selling the mental...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84NmAraJ ... re=related

...selling to idea of relaxation (look for the trick)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh79Xcmv ... re=related

...and finally selling the chi. Oh well, there's a simple trick to this one also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK2kajIp ... re=related

[Bill Glasheen]

I bought the first video, Mike. Nice stuff.

The other two are foo foo. Same old same old chi demos. Funny how I don't claim to have any chi, but can do this stuff.

The methods to the madness?

• Do not engage in any unnecessary tension. Any good athlete knows this. It's a matter of being strong where you're supposed to be strong, and relaxing everywhere else.
• Use the core muscles.
• Learn to read your partner through the touch. This takes time and lots of partner work.
• It's easier to hold a position than it is to move through a position. This is worked on a lot in Sanchin.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Quote
"Don't forget Ray, this is a close to verbatim demonstration of the techniques from Karate-do Kyhon which Ohshima translated and did the pictures for. So the attacks are like those in the book. But all of the throws are close in techniques, they have to be, so while the attack may be from a distance the actual technique isn't and they do work off of in close attacks just as well."

Mike

It's the distance thing that I don't like, and also the fact that you are not covered, and by adopting long stances you have limited your options....they may very well train your legs but they restrict your movement.
Keeping your hands low is great for getting sucker punched.and if you only train from what is a very long distance, then that is all you'll be good at...and you'll suffer close in.which is where IMHO most attacks happen...........look at the demonstration tori does a block then takes a big step forward before he punches ..........why doesn't he just throw a right.however on a more positive note..I thought the guy doing the coaching made some excellent points and I would certainly train with him

[Bill Glasheen]

Ray

The reason for the deep stances and distances has a lot to do with their ichigeki hissatsu approach to martial arts. If you are close enough to reach the opponent, you are to dispatch of them with no screwing around. This has its roots in old, old, Japanese battlefield martial arts. Their empty-hand arts were often in the context of the battlefield, with weapons around. If you lost your weapon, then you needed empty hand skills to survive. Sticky hands and long grappling sessions spell death. Simple one-shot kills, excellent footwork, and learning to stay off the line of force (tai sabaki) is what it's all about.

It's a rock, paper, scissors game. Show me a style, and I'll come up with a scenario where it isn't wise to use the more common approaches. The Shotokan approach works very well in many-on-one scenarios, and situations where weapons are present.

Their approach is similar to my own first style. I am thankful for my blend of this with the Uechi style. The combination gives me a more complete package. Only other thing needed is more grappling work to mate with the empty-hand aspect of the Uechi style. Then you have the rock (Shotokan), the paper (grappling), and the scissors (Uechi).

- Bill

[jorvik]

Well Karate has it's roots in China, No? and they don't have this approache. also I think you'll find that the earliset forms of Japanese martial art.aside from weapons arts were grappling in nature.albeit in armours ........maybe there is a bit of re-written history here