Role Models

[jorvik]

I used to have people like Morihei Ueshiba and Cheng Man Ching as my role models in the MA'S. By that I mean people who, although they were great fighters had a sort of spiritual dimension....they were great fighters but did their MA'S for a greater more profound reason, they were spiritually enlightened....I mean if you wanted to fight.....you could box, but these guys had something else.

Now many years later, I wonder if they were any good at all, did they just have a good agent and good advertising .......if you want B*llsh*t, seek out a good tai chi master or aikido sensei ...that's my experience with them
quote
" The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive.
The depth of their knowledge is unfathomable
because it is unfathomable
All we can do is describe their appearance.
Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream
Alert, like men aware of danger
Courteous, like visiting guests
Yielding, like ice about to melt
Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood.
Hollow, like caves
Opaque, like muddy pools."

[Dana Sheets]

if you want B*llsh*t, seek out a good tai chi master or aikido sensei ...that's my experience with them

There is good and bad in every style. It seems even more difficult for karate folks to find teachers they feel are effective in the "internal" or "soft" arts based on the comments most post on this board. But a few teachers do not represent the whole.

Also, I belive the original 1st focus of Tai Chi was health, and fighting was secondary. Which makes sense. It is hard to be a good fighter if you are often in poor health. No?

So some of those teachers you felt were not good role models for fighting, may have been good role models for health -- but it wasn't what you were looking for at the time. I'm always amazed by how I seem to awaken to what folks have to offer once I observe where I need improvement. Then role models and teachers in different areas surround me. I've begun to think that all the teachers I need are almost always present...I simply must open myself to all teaching. [remembering that some teachers teach you what you should not do, and others teach you what you should]

Dana

[RachelL]

[quote]
Now many years later, I wonder if they were any good at all, did they just have a good agent and good advertising .......if you want B*llsh*t, seek out a good tai chi master or aikido sensei ...that's my experience with them
[end quote]

Ahhh so this is fact or opinion? Do you think it fair to call what you experienced "Bull stuff"? Their way is not necessarily the way but just another way. Something that they may very well feel very passionate about. Can the same be said about some Karate/TKD/Judo/Jujitsu etc people. What about those that train in these arts for health and well being. Perhaps if you clarify your comment it will not be as Opaque, like muddy pools you mentioned. Your experience is your experience not everyones

[2Green]

Might I also add that anciently-expressed wisdom is not always easy to learn and apply in our modern life/combat.
The attributes such as watchful/alert/courteous/yielding/simple/hollow/opaque are sometimes seen as attributes of advanced martial artists, and mistakenly emulated in a superficial way without going through the process which produced them.
What I mean is that these attributes are BY-PRODUCTS, not methods or ends unto themselves.
You can't become a businessman by carrying a briefcase and the National Post.
So if one is teaching/learning this way it is doomed to failure.
Not to imply that any of the teachers were this way, but some things can be learned but not taught, such as wisdom and experience.
NM

[jorvik]

I don't know if you can train for health( you can become fitter and avoid things that result in poor health, smoking for instance, although surprisingly a lot of Chinese Gung Fu people believe that smoking is okay) .......maybe somebody better qualified, Bill or Ian could comment on that. Certainly I don't think that moveing around slowly will improve your health...but if that is the case all the fat, lazy, people who move around slowly would be in excellent health and not be suffering from strokes and coronarys.
In terms of self-defence I have looked high and low for a good "internal" master, and I think that I was quite clear in my last post about what I was looking for.......a spiritual quality.But if he says that he can fight..and he cannot, or that his system is far superior to hard "external " styles then he is a liar.....and therefore in my book anyway, not spiritual.
Let me be quite clear on this, I have been involved in ma's for close on 40 years, and I have always investigated as many ma's as I could. I do have a blackbelt in traditional Aikido, and I have studied 4 or 5 different styles of Tai-Chi, the last being the little known "Hao" style.....so I am not just speaking off the top of my head ..........if I could have found anyone who was any good , I think they would have shown up by know

Anyway, have a happy Christmas everybody

[KerryM]

Hi Dana and all-

I'm similiar to yourself D- I notice things from other people, either things to avoid or encor-porate, but if I had to answer specifically- give names without giving names-

I would find a role model a little like Oprah- with her giving-and "searching" for the "real" in life- nature, a little like Dr. Phil- point blank no holds barred in your face truth whether you like it or not- As unconditionaly loving as a child or pet- as strong spiritually as Mr. Miagi from the Karate Kid or Shulin from Crouching Tiger, and as magical as Gandalf from The Lord of the Rings.

That's who I would look for- this is who I strive to be- (without all the wealth at my fingertips of coarse LOL as in Oprah's case)

As to the other side of the coin- for there always is one- I would wish for the ability to take responsibility for the pitfalls, and seek to understand and try to accept them as part of "it" and do my best to control them, knowing that balance- is the key to all things.

There isn't really anyone like that, all in one person- so I guess I have created a role model for myself. LOL


K

[Dana Sheets]

Certainly I don't think that moveing around slowly will improve your health...but if that is the case all the fat, lazy, people who move around slowly would be in excellent health and not be suffering from strokes and coronarys.

I know several folks on this forum saw the tai chi master from China visiting at GEM's camp this past summer? Slow movement does not have to mean movement without effort or focus or physicality. That man had broken a good sweat by the end of a slow long form, and it was a form I would have been panting to try. Moving slowly with great control can build a lot of strength and if you're doing low enough stances, using those big muscle groups can get your heart rate going too. Obivously you can just do slow forms to be fit. But I find I can get quite a workout performing slow motion forms.

When you search for a martial arts role model or teacher, is the goal to find someone who is superior to you in all aspects of your life? Or have been bought too far into the "Kung Fu" television series tales of the perfect master with the perfect form and the perfect soul?
Dana

[jorvik]

Hi Dana,
I just posted on Bill's forum about martial arts promoting longevity. This was inspired by T.T.Liang a practitioner of Chen Man Ching Tai Chi...he died last year aged 102.
On the whole however, I have found a tremendous amount of rubbish in the internal arts. People often say that Tai Chi is a great martial art yet nobody has proved it by fighting a Thai boxer, similarly the point about it being a "health" system is also over done, as I said in my last post I don't know if you can train for health.
You mention about somebody breaking into a sweat doing Tai Chi....I was told by one Tai Chi "master"...that you must never do this.
I quoted from the Tao Te Ching last time I posted here...........with regard to your last paragraph here's something from Lao Tzu again
" I do not seek to walk in the footsteps of wise men, I seek what they saught!"