Using the body - it isn't simple!

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Bill Glasheen
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Using the body - it isn't simple!

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Dana

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I hit pretty good for a girl Image
I watched your Yakusoku Kumite; you hit pretty well, period. Actually Dana and I also had the pleasure of grappling and "choke" holding each other at the last regional. She is a very strong partner to work with.

Mr. Pantazi and Mr. Knepp

It is a pleasure to have you both aboard. Mr. Knepp, I hope you get the opportunity to meet Mr. Pantazi. He and I don't agree on a lot of things (mostly issues of western vs. eastern medicine), but he's a dedicated martial artist and a fine gentleman. This world of kyusho and tuite has a way of making enemies of good people. I hope we can work past all that nonsense. Life's way too short. Image

- Bill
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Using the body - it isn't simple!

Post by Ted Dinwiddie »

Knepp Sensei,

I have been participating on these forums for a little while now. By way of introduction, I am a very wet behind the ears shodan of Okinawan Kempo under Mr. Tom Widdows who is under Mr. Joe Aldridge. Both of these men are heavily influenced by Messrs. Dillman and Oyata (as well as others). My point being that my background is very kyusho/tuite/5 element/chi (gasp) based.

I have found the interplay and knowledge on these forums to be of the highest level. There are varying beliefs here regarding why stuff works/how stuff works, but the universal principle everyone comes to is Does it work? Can we figure out how to make it work better?

People here agree to disagree alot, but the debates are fantastic and I have learned alot here. My personal, humble, desire is for you to join in here with all the intellectual gusto you can muster. You will find worthy discussion and even comraderie, besides there will be one more high level guy for me to get stuff from.

ted
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Using the body - it isn't simple!

Post by Raffi Derderian »

Bill,
This is a great thread. Tell you what, next time I come down your way to work sticks and knives with your group, I'll bring the tape. Instead of going to that Italian restaurant afterwards, we'll go to your place and have those brews (and watch the tapes of course)
Ir we could do it instead of the afternoon shooting range. Hmmm, tough choice.
I am really enjoying how everyone is throwing in their own perspective here.
I know when I am doing trapping I move a certain way. When I work stick and/or knife, I move another way. Another type of movement is required, I believe, for Uechi kata. Sparring is a different deal all together. While of course there is always a little spill over from one to another, I do feel it is best to sort of keep it all separate. Although the thought of Uechi kata using Kali footwork is interesting.
RAf

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[This message has been edited by Raffi Derderian (edited May 17, 2001).]
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Van Canna
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Using the body - it isn't simple!

Post by Van Canna »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I'd like to suggest that any uncoordinated fine motor control under extreme stress might be largely a neurologic rather than a vascular phenomenon.
You are probably correct. I don’t know what the real reason is, but the effect is real.
One of Bob Bethoney’s students, a great fighter and even greater kicker [flying wheels, spins, back, axe etc.] as well as a tough hombre in the ring, found himself under sudden attack by a gang of punks with knives in an open field. He was with a bunch of friends, and there was no warning.

He told me this:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Van, my legs felt like lead, I could barely lift them to run, some of them caught up with another and me, I tried some wheel kicks and sidekicks, but all I was able to throw was front kicks. My legs felt like mush.
My companion was stabbed in the back. Stricken by terror I finally was able to get away from them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The LFI instructors will call your mother all kinds of nice names, if they catch you try to release the slide of a Colt .45 in any way other than grasping it tight in your palm and yanking it back so it can slam forward. They know your fingers will not work and you will fumble.
Food for thought, don’t you think?

BTW good tactic to move in a circle keeping the knifer at bay as you drew your gun. As you know, stepping back is suicidal.


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Van Canna
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Using the body - it isn't simple!

Post by Van Canna »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I'm just talking about adding the power of movement originating in those major muscle groups to the techniques manifested at our hands, feet, elbows, and knees. When you watch some people do advanced kata, you'd think they'd do no worse with their feet firmly planted in cement.
Amen, brother.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
You know...I've never been stumped by the Tueller drill. Shot them dead every time! Why? Because I moved!! Nobody ever told me I couldn't; at the time it seemed the most natural response to the situation. Training or instinct? Who knows...but I'm the only one I personally know who defeated the drill
Mas Ayoob of LFI teaches movement to defeat the Tueller drill. So you did the right thing. Question: which way did you move? And were you able to draw the gun and fire on the knifer?

Jim Maloney pulled a neat trick ..once. He moved sideways and spun 360 degrees with his right leg sweeping the running opponent off his feet while drawing his gun simultaneously with the spin and then shooting the downed adversary to the back of the head. Image


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Bill Glasheen
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Using the body - it isn't simple!

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Van

You and I usually engage on this sympathetic response topic now and then, so this is nothing new. I just wanted to share something that suddenly started bugging me last night when I thought about it. I thought about bringing it to another thread (and we may if it gets way off topic), but I'll keep it here for now since the physiology and function go hand-in-hand. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Blood flow is redirected to the major muscles [thighs, chest, arms] and away from the lower extremities engendering loss of dexterity in foot motion/body movement on the feet and coordination of movement from the vascular occlusion.
Let me say first that I understand there are very real "situations" that these words are attempting to address. Many do experience what I call the deer in the headlights effect when suddenly thrust into a highly stressful situations. This may or may not be accompanied by a feeling of heaviness of the legs, etc. However...I want to question the explanation above as a reason for why some are reduced to non-movement or less coordinated movement when under extremely high stress. Here are my thoughts.

* Peripheral vascular control is ultimately governed by the speed of inputs to the system (both central and local) and the speed of response of the system (contraction/relaxation of vascular smooth muscle). Ultimately you end up with a system that has a time constant of somewhere between 10 and 20 seconds. To make a long story short, it would take close to a half minute before an instantaneous threat (bad guy jumps out of the bushes with a knife) had any effect at all on the blood flow to small muscle groups in the periphery. The heart - on the other hand - would respond much more quickly (stronger and more frequent contractions), and so the initial effect may even be enhanced blood flow to the periphery.

* The whole blood flow to periphery issue is somewhat complex. As I stated above, local blood flow is influenced by both central control (input/output from the medulla oblongata) and peripheral control (effects of the byproducts of metabolism on local flow). Through a very wide range, systems in the body remain in a bit of constant dynamic tension (sympathetic vs. parasympathetic, need of one part of the body vs. need of another...). It is indeed true (my former graduate advisor did the work) that the body undergoes a transition to a centrally controlled system when under shock. But when I say shock, I'm talking about major blood loss. Things are actually a bit more complex when talking about simple sympathetic stimulation. I've created pharmacological proxies in the lab on anesthetized dogs, and measured blood flow to the periphery. As long as we aren't talking about extreme volume changes like what happens when we are injured, peripheral muscles can generally maintain "adequate" flow. There may indeed be shifts away from the skin "compartment" and towards muscle. When you think about it, that's a VERY advantageous thing. You are less likely to hemorrhage from a cut. Clotting times also change to reinforce that effect.

* Let's assume simple terror may not incapacitate peripheral muscle blood supply. How would that happen? Well generally a peripheral muscle group may become a bit ischemic under extreme sympathetic response due to central control. The body increases blood volume in major blood vessels to bring the pressure up. But there is plenty of blood reserve in major veins and in the spleen if it is needed. Byproducts of local metabolism (such as lactic acid production from muscle use) can cause local control systems to demand - and get - more blood. Much of the peripheral vascular smooth muscle in fact is directly influenced only by these byproducts. This is "the pump" that weightlifters get when they work out, and bodybuilders seek when they compete on stage. One can note only a specific muscle group bloating after a few sets.

I want to offer two anecdotes worth considering.

* First, there was a bodybuilding competition held once in Charlottesville, sponsored I believe by John Gamble (former UVa strength coach and former world powerlifting champion). After the competition, his staff was cleaning up and noted empty vials of epinephrine scattered around the backstage area. Yes...a few of these crazies were actually getting the intensity AND pump they needed by a combination of severe sympathetic stimulation (DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!!!) along with an exercise-induced "pump" (from the quick dumbbell sets before walking onstage.

* And for my second anecdote, I'd like to point out that the state of Virginia is - I believe - number one in the nation in producing "cold hits" on criminal identification via DNA analysis. Many crime victims (of rape and/or murder) have scraping taken from under their fingernails to look for "foreign DNA." It takes some "serious" finger (controlled by forearm muscles) work to get the skin of their attacker under the nails. The muscular work may not be coordinated, but strength doesn't appear to be a problem.

I'd like to suggest that any uncoordinated fine motor control under extreme stress might be largely a neurologic rather than a vascular phenomenon.

- Bill
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Using the body - it isn't simple!

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Van

I just caught your other post.

I expect no less of Jimmy Malone. He's a madman! Image

As for me, my instinct was to move to MY right, and I continued in a somewhat circular fashion as the knifer tracked me. I had no problem getting the gun drawn, and easily got three shots off.

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Perhaps we are thinking a bit backwards here. The time constant phenomenon of peripheral vascular bed response is a two-way affair. Just as it would take half a minute or so to notice an ischemic response, so too it would take an equal amount of time (or maybe more) to go from rest to fully functional. There's something our foot-dexterous TKD friends forget from a self-defense perspective. In a typical workout, a student doesn't bow and then start doing flying spinning hook kicks. Generally there is a reasonably extensive warm-up period. When I am doing squats and getting to the end of a training phase where I am going fewer reps with higher weight, I have consistently noticed how I need to lift heavy before I can lift heavy. It is literally impossible to do my max weight for three to five reps without having gone through three or so sets of ever-increasing weight. Once the muscles are literally primed with blood, then I can get serious.

Leg dexterity is a relative thing. I'm a relatively flexible guy and have taken good care of my legs. I can kick reasonably strong, reasonably high, and can do most of the TKD kicks. But when I wake up at 3 AM and have to pee, I'm lucky if I can walk a straight path to the bathroom. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
found himself under sudden attack by a gang of punks with knives in an open field ... "my legs felt like lead, I could barely lift them to run, some of them caught up with another and me, I tried some wheel kicks and sidekicks, but all I was able to throw was front kicks. My legs felt like mush."
I am not surprised for two reasons. First, the front kick requires the least flexibility and the least amount of coordination. The bad guys had a chance to warm up to the strike; their hearts were probably pounding for a good while before they surprised our friend here. They were primed for the fight. Our friend was mentally there in seconds, but compared to his mind, his body was lagging far behind. It wasn't ischemia, it was lack of hyperemia. He didn't have the luxury of that long stretch and warm-up. And the overloaded brain probably wasn't availing him easy access to the stored information (and subsequent nerve firing patterns) needed to do the more complex motions. But any damn fool can do a front kick. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
The LFI instructors will call your mother all kinds of nice names, if they catch you try to release the slide of a Colt .45 in any way other than grasping it tight in your palm and yanking it back so it can slam forward. They know your fingers will not work and you will fumble.
This is a really good example. I have had the "gift" of a tremor in my hands and fingers. I was born with it. It is very sensitive to sympathetic stimulation. Over time I have learned to deal with it quite nicely. I had a gift in our cardiac research lab; not even the cardiac surgeons could do the kinds of techniques on a beating heart that I was doing. But I knew my limits. There were several procedures that required exacting dexterity. Once false move and we had a very short day. They really messed with my brain, and I had to take careful measures to see that I was in my "Zen mind" before proceeding. For several years I wouldn't even let anyone watch me. I finally found a way around that one; I would talk to the observer about an entirely different subject while doing the delicate maneuver that they wanted to watch me perform. It was a big head game. In many ways, it taught me a lot.

My tremor has other interesting manifestations. Most who know me understand that I am rarely short of words. At family gatherings, I'm guaranteed to be one of the folks that give a toast and speech. But I have learned always to have an empty glass when doing the toast. If I have the least amount of liquid in my glass and I know 50 or so people are watching me while I talk, my hand will go into an uncontrollable quiver and suddenly everyone is watching the glass with the contents spilling everywhere. It's a vicious cycle. So...I do it with an empty glass. Suddenly everything is fine.

The interesting thing about the semiautomatic example is that the muscles that control the gross motor movements that shape the palm are in the exact location as the muscles that do the fine motor movements with the fingers - the forearm. Everything is connected by a complex series of tendons. But the information content of a sequence of nerve firing patterns that would operate the fingers is far more detailed than the same that would do a simple grabbing motion with the whole hand. Oh and one other thing...the hands will be sweating under stress. The greater the surface area that grabs the slide, the less likely one will fumble and/or slip.

By the way, the same goes for the feet and toes. All the muscles are in the calf region, and the connections are made via long tendons.

This "gift" has helped me understand my limitations under stress. I know not to get cute when I am stressed. I've dealt with that all my life. Almost anyone can get the same tremors I get when they are stressed enough; I have the advantage of "having been there."

By the way, Van, this idea of distracting the brain from obsession with the "threat" (my talking to avoid thinking about screwing up the surgical technique when being watched) intrigues me. It reminds me of a situation where I apprehended someone attempting to remove a tapedeck from my car. Only after the police came and I turned the slug over did I suddenly go into spine rattling, whole-body tremors. A guy that came by to help me experienced the exact same phenomenon at the exact same moment. Interesting, no? It makes me wonder about what we could do to similarly engage the mind so we could avoid the mental breakdowns that happen when it all comes down.

- Bill


[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited May 18, 2001).]
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Van Canna
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Using the body - it isn't simple!

Post by Van Canna »

Bill,

Good post. Interesting as to what we could do to thwart the undesirable effects of confrontational stress. Wish I knew the answer. The work Of Bruce Siddle, though, has always intrigued me. Image

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Dale Knepp
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Using the body - it isn't simple!

Post by Dale Knepp »

Evan Pantazi wrote:
First I have the same time in and have trained with several Oriental folks as well. That is not the intent of my post, it was addressing the "only" phrase...nothing may be ascertained from watching a video. I have watched a few of the senior members of this board move a bit and will tell you the same of them...body mecahnics, power and instinctual flowing motion is fully realized with speed. The applications of standing Ukes are also on video I have of Oyata Sensei, which I have nothing but respect for, this illustrates nothing, the personal training is what counts. "So many people today think that it is something separate from karate and just means where and how to hit these vital points (thanks to George Dillman and others)"...you need more information as he does not seperate the two, and his mission has always been to get people to better understand their Kata (same with us others)...that's Karate.

Mr. Pantazi:

The "only" phase is my experience and was not to be taken to mean anything more than that. Taika Oyata has used standing ukes as part of his demostrations but has always said that he was not doing real technique, only as an example and not a true technique. What he considers true technique cannot be demonstration in a seminar and can only be done in real life situations that most of us will never be involved in unless we are very unfortunate.

I originally posted that message on another forum in response to concerns as to whether or not there was a distinction between karate and kyusho-jitsu. Many people have asked me to clarify the question and most indicated to me that their confusion was a result of exposure to the Dillman method. No offense was intended.

Bill Glasheen wrote:
It is a pleasure to have you both aboard. Mr. Knepp, I hope you get the opportunity to meet Mr. Pantazi. He and I don't agree on a lot of things (mostly issues of western vs. eastern medicine), but he's a dedicated martial artist and a fine gentleman. This world of kyusho and tuite has a way of making enemies of good people. I hope we can work past all that nonsense. Life's way too short.

Mr. Glasheen:

I have no intention of making enemies on this forum but Taika Oyata has his view of things that he mainly keeps to himself. Taika has stated years ago that George Dillman was a mere beginner and hasn't changed his mind as of yet. I have to agree with him on that as I have met Dillman in 1983 when he came to Kansas City and again in 1984 in Reading, PA before he was removed from Taika Oyata's organization. Mr. Dillman is not what I regard as a bad person. In fact, I found him most hospitable but I disagree with his use of the name Ryukyu Kempo and kyusho-jitsu and tuite-jitsu. He was permitted to use the name and terms as a member of Taika organization but then would not follow guidelines set by Taika Oyata and was not allowed to train with Taika any longer. He went on to combine what little knowledge he obtain from Taika with Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) terminology and concepts to form his own method. Not that I have ever met a TCM practitioner that gave credence to the Dillman method.

Ted Dinwiddie wrote:
I have been participating on these forums for a little while now. By way of introduction, I am a very wet behind the ears shodan of Okinawan Kempo under Mr. Tom Widdows who is under Mr. Joe Aldridge. Both of these men are heavily influenced by Messrs. Dillman and Oyata (as well as others). My point being that my background is very kyusho/tuite/5 element/chi (gasp) based.
I have found the interplay and knowledge on these forums to be of the highest level. There are varying beliefs here regarding why stuff works/how stuff works, but the universal principle everyone comes to is Does it work? Can we figure out how to make it work better?
People here agree to disagree alot, but the debates are fantastic and I have learned alot here. My personal, humble, desire is for you to join in here with all the intellectual gusto you can muster. You will find worthy discussion and even comraderie, besides there will be one more high level guy for me to get stuff from.

Mr. Dinwiddie:

I don't know Mr. Tom Widdows or Mr. Joe Aldridge so I can't say anything about them. I hope that they are capable and honest instructors.

Taika Oyata has said nothing about the 5 elements in his martial art and what he says about ki (chi) is that everyone has it or you would be dead without it. He has also said that one should not make a big deal about it unless you don't have it.

I allow everyone their own opinion and disagree with a lot of people. I hope that my diasgreement is regarded as respectful because I try my best to do so without being soft spoken and disregarded myself. I hope that we can all learn something from the exchange.

Best regards,

Dale Knepp
Evan Pantazi
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Using the body - it isn't simple!

Post by Evan Pantazi »

Dale San,

I take no offense as you are a student of Oyata Sensei you should naturally place him in regard above the rest. Years pass and all that stay on track will progress as well.

There is NO demo in the world by anyone that can reach the term "realistic", we can only indicate.

Innovation is also a great tool as we try to forge better method built on past and present knowledge or capabilities. Here is an example of Dillman inspired innovation (From Ryukyu Nai Han Chi...and DKI member Sensei Gary Rook's research into Kiajitsu...yes I did Kiai just not standard or audible fare). This was taken a while back and we have now been able to incorporate it into live grappling with good result, we are still refining and investigating.

Image
Click Here!

Please do not be limited by traditon, seek new paths, we will all grow much more.


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Bill Glasheen
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Using the body - it isn't simple!

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Gentlemen

We are treading in gray territory here. The policy of the forums is to discuss issues and not personalities. The only exception to that rule is when the issue and individual are inseparable. But even then, the focus should be on actions and martial issues as opposed to personal differences.

I am very interested in the experiences of anyone who has spent considerable time training in traditional dojos. I am very interested in the teachings of someone like Oyata sensei. I am very well aware of the unique path that Dillman sensei chose to walk, and I have read extensively of the many organizations that have sprouted from those experiences. I even have my own opinions on whom I like or don't like, whom I'd learn from and whom I wouldn't, what I think of traditionalism vs. innovation, what is thoughtful work and what is suspect, etc. But there is an efficient way to go about discussing all this that separates subject from emotional content. That's what we all should strive for.

Please, I'd like to hear more about what individual teachers taught, and perhaps hear comparisons (or maybe contrasts) to what other martial artists have discovered or are teaching. I've heard enough about who pi$$ed on whose begonias to last me a lifetime. Like good Japanese, we can save that for after-hours conversations when the sake flows and the the conversations are private.

- Bill
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Using the body - it isn't simple!

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Evan

Nice ankle lock! Such techniques are the reason why the Gracie brothers have done so well in the UFC competitions. I can count two points of torture on that technique (supination of the ankle and radial bone leaning on inside of shin). I like the arm positioning in the lock; I've used it in aikido.

You poison or mine?

- Bill
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Using the body - it isn't simple!

Post by Panther »

I've been "lurking" on this very interesting and informative thread and haven't bothered getting involved... I thought about this for awhile and decided to finally post...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:

As you know, stepping back is suicidal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then why is stepping straight back taught? I hate that!
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Panther

As the newbie but hardly a beginner Uechika, I officially award you with "The King's Wearing no Clothes Award." Ahhh, the vision of a child is so telling...


Damned if I know! I also bitch about the stupid step punching, which nobody does in a real fight. All I can say in its defense is that it may be a pedagogical artifact. Perhaps a beginner has too many things to think about before involving more complex (and not entirely instinctive) movement. Most poor bastards DO step back when attacked. And so we play with what they naturally do, and worry about changing their mindset later. But should we really be reinforcing bad habits? Hmmm...

Personally I teach my people to zig-zag.

Keep coming with those hard questions, Panther.

- Bill
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