southern mantis site

[Dana Sheets]

from that site:

These basic skills must use the mantis inside and outside hooking skill to control the opponent in a slicing and redirecting rather than banging force against force of the opponents attack.

And

Each of the mor, gwak, choc, skills must also be trained three ways; defense only, defense and strike with the same hand, defense and strike with the opposite hand.

[JimHawkins]

Dare I point out, that they are backing up in their 2-man forms?

chewy

Where is the two man set?

[Dana Sheets]

http://www.bambootemple.com/novice.htm

http://www.bambootemple.com/appren.htm
I think the 2nd two man form is part of Sam Bo Gin

http://www.bambootemple.com/martial.htm

And for this one:
http://www.bambootemple.com/chuanim.htm

I know you're thinking...where can I get those cool wrist protectors!

[IJ]

"I know you're thinking...where can I get those cool wrist protectors!"

Um, the Castro, in San Francisco?

Anyway, I wish they'd take a few stills and animate slower... this is like trying to make sense of fighting to (fairly slow) strobe lights and mostly I feel lost in the dark, especially with something as nuanced as kungfu.

[JimHawkins]

Thanks Dana..

A little tough to see the sets with the gif animation but so far I see no disengagement.. There is a difference between backing up and being moved backwards while sticking and maintaining pressure.. One would need to speak with a member of their group to get the right idea about the reverse movement as they see it.

The high kicks are strange to see.. Don't think all S. Mantis/Hakka Mantis use high kicks.

[Stryke]

There is a difference between backing up and being moved backwards while sticking and maintaining pressure..

And we have a winner

This has always been my position, it`s the lack of contact and lack of control that is the problem in stepping away .

http://www.bambootemple.com/appren.htm

look at the feeling hadn with target practice , now look at McCarthys tegumi drills especially the hooking and drawing elements ..

Now look at Uechi ...

can you not see the uechi draw on the limb for an outside entry , and a Sanchin thrust on the limb for an inside entry ?

and cant you see kotikitae using this method and transfers and traps and etc etc etc ......

Isnt modern Uechi missing some basics of it`s past .

Tegumi , kotakitae , Chi Sau ... whatever you wush to call it , it`s there , it`s evident , and it will make some seriously skilled martial artists .

[JimHawkins]

now look at McCarthys tegumi drills especially the hooking and drawing elements ..

Got a link?

can you not see the uechi draw on the limb for an outside entry , and a Sanchin thrust on the limb for an inside entry ?

Yes but I see the wauke component as applying as much on the inside as the outside reference point..or even...changing from inside to outside and back... If you are speaking of the wing hand and then I still see that as working inside and outside.. Some have suggested that the outside line is superior and that the inside line is equal, but the mantis moves like the inside, while crane likes outside, and I think all of these inside systems address inside and outside control, you can't really have just one - just like ground fighters will train both side controls and mounts, guard, half guard, there are a lot of different positions to work.

The thrust thing is off line from a WCK standpoint still I agree that it seems to be an inside 'clear' but the centerline is off from how we use it.. This difference seems to manifest from the mantis vs snake influences, the snake in WCK, has this thrust start from the heart or center and shoots out rising a bit and riding the line, generally toward the eyes. That's the in-inside.

The sanchin thrust seems to take one of what I call the "double" centerlines that mantis sometimes uses. I do not fully understand how this structure relates to centerline control that they refer to but from what I know they seem to train splitting moves that seem to emulate the mandible of the mantis.

Mandible
Paired appendage of the 4th body segment that becomes the 1st pair of mouthparts, analogous to jaw. Used to chew, cut, and tear food, to carry things, to fight, and to mold wax. Move from side to side rather than up and down.

How many Uechi folks work on training grips that crush split and tear when they "grab"? That's what those jars are for and some CMA who train this stuff will make your arms bleed or worse if you play with them and they get a hold of your bridges.

kotikitae using this method and transfers and traps and etc etc etc ......

Any clips of this drill?

Isnt modern Uechi missing some basics of it`s past .

Only if by past you mean before it was called Uechi..

Tegumi , kotakitae , Chi Sau ... whatever you wush to call it , it`s there , it`s evident , and it will make some seriously skilled martial artists .

Logic dictates that Kanbun and others who trained in China probably had exposure to similar training in China.. No telling though what the focus was on such drills, it could have been core training or it could have been ancillary depending on the teacher and what he was teaching. Some arts like WCK spend 80%-90% of their time training sticking and some spend just a little time on it, though most of the root and similar systems like mantis, crane, white eyebrow, etc do seem to focus on this study. This makes sense because when working at close range the use of sight or visual perception>reaction is asking too much of the CNS, there is no time so tactile perception>reaction training is critical for inside survival.

The sticking training makes training some things possible that otherwise either wouldn’t be or would take a very long time to develop otherwise. Sticking training takes the clash, which happens in the blink of an eye and puts it under a microscope, magnifies it a thousand percent and injects the lessons learned directly into the CNS via tactile and visual feedback. This gives folks the time to refine and cultivate critical attributes that normally exist in combat only for a split second. Many of the techniques in these styles are designed for this range and compressed time reaction with contact but without this kind of contact study many movements and postures will seem out of place or seem to have no reason for being..

[Bill Glasheen]

The thing I find amazing is the epiphany you get when you view Uechi style movements from the stick vs. from a noncontact position. It seems that much of what was/is taught of Kanbun's style involved a someone simplistic approach. Things get more interesting though when you think of contact or a desire to contact throughout the movement.

A real good example is the Uechi hammerhand such as is done in Seisan. I've heard teachers admonishing students for coming back/up too far on the "chambering" of the movement because you're exposing yourself too much. That's true if you think in terms of sparring and general distance fighting. However if you think of the "chamber" kind of like "opening the clam" of the BG's defenses, then suddenly the idea of pulling up and out doesn't seem so bad. It just draws their arms open more. And it gets even more interesting when you think of the right step done with hammerhand as "the dragon's tail" which catches their front leg and tugs them off balance.

Yep... BIG paradigm shift.

It isn't quite the eloquent sequences I see in Wing Chun, but contact still is the operating word here.

- Bill

[Stryke]

Good post Jim more later .

NAd I agree on the Wauke , I accpet it as a manipulation and transfer and etc etc .... I forget most see it as a block

[JimHawkins]

Hey dude All is in Sanchin...

I see it inside and outside.. Lots of two handed parry hits, as well as the palm on the elbow move Rory uses.... It's in there.. You just gotta have one of those cool decoder rings from the 50s to get access to the good stuff..

[Stryke]

Give me a few weeks and i`ll send you a few clips of my playing , should be simpler .

But for example , when i draw/chamber on an attack It covers my centreline deflecting the attack , hooking it with my wrist ...

Now if contact is broken I use the Sanchin thrust , this inturn gives me the centre and covers the most likely gates . If I mange to maintain contact and forward pressure maybe pin the hand to me , then I can maybe use the Wauke , as the draw has become the minor hand and I can trap and destroy or blast or whatever ....

all tactily done covering gates , filling space , taking what comes etc etc

Dude I know kunf fu

pretty fly for a Gwai lo huh ?