One can often What if these scenarios to death. The best answer to Ian's question is to work with the partner and test things out. I've been doing prearranged kumite for so long that I can now break slightly out of a pattern, or have a partner goof with a "wrong" technique, and not miss a beat. It's very important to mess with people in that manner. So now and then I might bring a roundhouse kick a little higher. Sometimes I will lay a toe right on the side of someone's head, like a gentle message from Allah. And now and then, I attempt to do that and find that the partner adapts just fine. This "testing" of the partner's mindset and defenses both instructs and checks. You will know very quickly whether or not your partner is tuned to you, or some external paradigm that has nothing to do with two people spontaneously fighting.
- Bill
Innovative Dan Kumite Take Down
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Bill Glasheen
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Allen M.
Innovative Dan Kumite Take Down
Shaolin! Make 'em think you are going to go high then go low. Make 'em think you are going to go low, then crush their frappin’ skulls in.
Someone delivering a fast hard kick full of intent is often nearly impossible to stop with a block. Couple that with the peripheral power of someone wearing boots and by the time the kick reached blocking range and you don’t want to try to block it. Either must jam and do something such as the video, which is the theme of these posts, portrays, or use the fast-twitch muscles to get out of the way.
Most kicks done in the dojo are either low power or low speed or both, therefore easy to block injury-free. Even fast, hard kicks in the dojo are [usually] easy to stop because there is [provided there is, that is…] no intent and the kicker is going to pull his technique anyway.
That all makes it sweet and hunky-dory.
Scott
I’m using W2K.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Someone delivering a fast hard kick full of intent is often nearly impossible to stop with a block. Couple that with the peripheral power of someone wearing boots and by the time the kick reached blocking range and you don’t want to try to block it. Either must jam and do something such as the video, which is the theme of these posts, portrays, or use the fast-twitch muscles to get out of the way.
Most kicks done in the dojo are either low power or low speed or both, therefore easy to block injury-free. Even fast, hard kicks in the dojo are [usually] easy to stop because there is [provided there is, that is…] no intent and the kicker is going to pull his technique anyway.
That all makes it sweet and hunky-dory.
Scott
I’m using W2K.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Innovative Dan Kumite Take Down
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Allen M.:
Shaolin! Make 'em think you are going to go high then go low. Make 'em think you are going to go low, then crush their frappin’ skulls in.
Someone delivering a fast hard kick full of intent is often nearly impossible to stop with a block.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Huh?
I said nothing about blocking, I don't use blocks - never used the word. I suggested a Center kick as a counter to the Round Kick - a common counter attack to a kick, it allows us to control the center - a Round Kick leaves the attacker wide open, must travel further and forces you to lead with your jewels unless done low. Also a round kick will usually do less damage to the enemy. The Center kick counter can close off the other kick's line (by cutting under the thigh) and and has about 20% more range on average - it can be used against almost any kick including the front kick. Longest weapon to nearest target.
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Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited March 21, 2002).]
Shaolin! Make 'em think you are going to go high then go low. Make 'em think you are going to go low, then crush their frappin’ skulls in.
Someone delivering a fast hard kick full of intent is often nearly impossible to stop with a block.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Huh?
I said nothing about blocking, I don't use blocks - never used the word. I suggested a Center kick as a counter to the Round Kick - a common counter attack to a kick, it allows us to control the center - a Round Kick leaves the attacker wide open, must travel further and forces you to lead with your jewels unless done low. Also a round kick will usually do less damage to the enemy. The Center kick counter can close off the other kick's line (by cutting under the thigh) and and has about 20% more range on average - it can be used against almost any kick including the front kick. Longest weapon to nearest target.
------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited March 21, 2002).]
Innovative Dan Kumite Take Down
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ian:
I agree that's a valid counter to a roundkick, although depending on when you land your kick, you still have to protect your head and one can't ALWAYS see the roundkick coming with enough time to deflate it with a counterkick.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Landing a Round House on a skilled opponent is very tough. Countering the Round Kick depends on range - if we can't close - we kick straight at the enemy. In this way the Center is filled and cleared. A round kick especially a high one has very short range and can be intercepted even late. The problem for the Round Kick is that:
1. The Round kick must travel in a circular motion which takes longer.Poor economy of motion
2. The Round Kick has less range than the Center Kick.Structural disadvantage
3. The Round Kick issues lateral impact energy.Poor body alignment and balance.
4. The Round Kick exposes vital targets
5. The Round Kick does not control the Center.
6……..
In contrast, a Centerline Front Kick done with the heel (knee turned out slightly) has all of the elements missing in the Round Kick - Structure - Economy of Motion and Centerline issuing energy. Moreover any fighter that wants to be on the inside needs to have his hands close to the opponent, which the Front Kick provides.
Now this doesn’t mean a Round Kick will never score, but it has a lot going against it.
I have to believe that that there are people on this forum who know how easy it can be to smother most people's kicks. Unless they are exceptional most kicks are easy to jam or smother or step on. Most angry brutish thugs will instinctively rush and tackle a kick - oops.
This being the case WC views kicking as very transitory and we usually just shoot and jam with a knee/arm on the way in. Note: Foot placement when stepping in is vital! Once you close on a kick you are no longer in Kicking Range and now it’s hand range – time to get busy.
WC only uses the Center Front kick counter if range is a problem. In this case we must react by filling the Centerline with maximum efficiency and use the Centerline Front Kick counter, which as I said will send them flying. If you doubt how easy it can be to nail someone with this try using the Front Kick as I said – toe and knee out at 45 degrees shoot heel straight at the Center of his body - but be careful of his jewels.
As for the Round Kick The JKD version of this kick and is very nice
and anyone still interested 
in using a Round Kick should check it out. The JKD people call it a Hook Kick, not to be confused with a Karate Hook Kick - and they almost always use this kick low. I personally like their kick and use it in place of a Round Kick in fun type sparring situations or for drilling against it - but for the street it has little value IMHO.
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Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited March 22, 2002).]
I agree that's a valid counter to a roundkick, although depending on when you land your kick, you still have to protect your head and one can't ALWAYS see the roundkick coming with enough time to deflate it with a counterkick.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Landing a Round House on a skilled opponent is very tough. Countering the Round Kick depends on range - if we can't close - we kick straight at the enemy. In this way the Center is filled and cleared. A round kick especially a high one has very short range and can be intercepted even late. The problem for the Round Kick is that:
1. The Round kick must travel in a circular motion which takes longer.Poor economy of motion
2. The Round Kick has less range than the Center Kick.Structural disadvantage
3. The Round Kick issues lateral impact energy.Poor body alignment and balance.
4. The Round Kick exposes vital targets
5. The Round Kick does not control the Center.
6……..
In contrast, a Centerline Front Kick done with the heel (knee turned out slightly) has all of the elements missing in the Round Kick - Structure - Economy of Motion and Centerline issuing energy. Moreover any fighter that wants to be on the inside needs to have his hands close to the opponent, which the Front Kick provides.
Now this doesn’t mean a Round Kick will never score, but it has a lot going against it.
I have to believe that that there are people on this forum who know how easy it can be to smother most people's kicks. Unless they are exceptional most kicks are easy to jam or smother or step on. Most angry brutish thugs will instinctively rush and tackle a kick - oops.
This being the case WC views kicking as very transitory and we usually just shoot and jam with a knee/arm on the way in. Note: Foot placement when stepping in is vital! Once you close on a kick you are no longer in Kicking Range and now it’s hand range – time to get busy.
WC only uses the Center Front kick counter if range is a problem. In this case we must react by filling the Centerline with maximum efficiency and use the Centerline Front Kick counter, which as I said will send them flying. If you doubt how easy it can be to nail someone with this try using the Front Kick as I said – toe and knee out at 45 degrees shoot heel straight at the Center of his body - but be careful of his jewels.
As for the Round Kick The JKD version of this kick and is very nice
and anyone still interested in using a Round Kick should check it out. The JKD people call it a Hook Kick, not to be confused with a Karate Hook Kick - and they almost always use this kick low. I personally like their kick and use it in place of a Round Kick in fun type sparring situations or for drilling against it - but for the street it has little value IMHO.------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited March 22, 2002).]
Innovative Dan Kumite Take Down
The roundhouse kick is the technique that seems to score the most knockouts in full contact tournaments.
Witness the spectacular knockouts of our NHB fighter Joe Pomfret, and Maria's knockout in the all uechi tournament last year.
Joe knocked out a world rated kickboxer who went down and out for a very long time.
But I agree that it is not a kick for everyone, as it is all in the timing which makes the opponent's counter seem to stand still.
Not many have the great timing it requires.
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Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited March 22, 2002).]
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Scott Danziger
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Innovative Dan Kumite Take Down
In case anybody missed Joe's KO kick...
Windows Media:
56K Version
100K Version
Broadband Version
Real Media:
56K Version
broadband Version
------------------
VISIT:
Uechi-Ryu.Com Multimedia
Uechi-Ryu.Com Hotlist (Martial Art Links)
Taking Charge - Cable TV & Video Martial Arts Show
[This message has been edited by Scott Danziger (edited March 22, 2002).]
Windows Media:
56K Version
100K Version
Broadband Version
Real Media:
56K Version
broadband Version
------------------
VISIT:
Uechi-Ryu.Com Multimedia
Uechi-Ryu.Com Hotlist (Martial Art Links)
Taking Charge - Cable TV & Video Martial Arts Show
[This message has been edited by Scott Danziger (edited March 22, 2002).]
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Bill Glasheen
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Innovative Dan Kumite Take Down
Nice photo, Van!
I've chatted with Joe about his knockouts. Actually I teased him a bit. When you watch one of his knockouts on film, his opponent just drops his hands as Joe fires the kick. Out of context, it looks exactly like the photo above - What the heck was that guy doing dropping his hands??? But again, we view this technique out of context, and play Monday morning quarterback in our comfortable computer chairs.
The truth is a bit more complicated than that. Yes, Van is right. The roundhouse scores the most knockouts in full contact, and it is a big favorite in point tournaments. In my sparring days, I probably scored more points with it - particularly to the head - than any other technique. That's saying a lot, given that the reverse punch is my favorite. Some of it is indeed timing as Van says. The right fake gets someone to drop the hands, and you fire the foot to the head exactly at the point where you expect the opponent to have bottomed on the hand dropping. As Van alluded, it's hard to teach and hard for some people with no rhythm to do. (That's why I often advise my students to play an instrument or dance a lot).
Gary Khoury covers this subject a bit on his sparring video. He talks about the concept of "checking." Basically you probe your partner with subtle movements, and note how they respond. You make a mental note. Then a few techniques later, you do the same movement and then time an attack to the exact area where you last saw an opening created - with perfect timing. Many good athletes in many sports do this. Wade Boggs - a major league batting champion - routinely let the first pitch go by so he could gage how the pitcher was throwing. He had no problem hitting the ball with only two strikes left after setting his mental gages.
In Joe's case, he told me that his forte was grappling techniques, and the roundhouse was just something he played with. Fine. I reminded him that if his opponent was expecting him to attack with something like a grappling shoot, then that roundhouse was the perfect counter to the partner's anticipation. The dropping of the hands in Joe's knockouts makes perfect sense when you think of it like that. So as I told Joe, the moral of the story was that his success had a lot to do with his having so many options. Options make you less predictable. Options give you a counter to a counter. Options increase the amount of "thinking" your partner has to do when you approach, and that is a very good thing for you. Options come in lots of flavors, like multiple angles of attack, upper vs. lower body, multiple levels of attack (from head to leg sweep), grappling vs. striking, etc.
Shaolin
I completely understand the counter you are proposing. The technique is implicit in a prearranged kumite in our system (kyu kumite, #4). We don't actually follow through with the technique (for safety reasons), but rather just raise the leg when the opponent does the roundhouse...and then proceed on to the next defense in the sequence. A lot of folks who do that exercise think the raising of the leg is all about (only about) "blocking" the lateral technique. When I see folks throwing that raised leg out to the side, it makes me see red. Often I will then explicitly demonstrate the implicit technique (counter lateral technique with linear shot to hip or "jewels"). I get a lot of wide-eyed, Ah-ha looks after that.
We are on the same page. Wing Chun and Uechi Ryu share much in the realm of countering offense with offense rather than a "block." Unfourtunately a lot of our prearranged kumites - choreographed on Okinawa - give people false notions of how to fight. I suppose it's just a nasty byproduct of the pedagogical process.
- Bill
I've chatted with Joe about his knockouts. Actually I teased him a bit. When you watch one of his knockouts on film, his opponent just drops his hands as Joe fires the kick. Out of context, it looks exactly like the photo above - What the heck was that guy doing dropping his hands??? But again, we view this technique out of context, and play Monday morning quarterback in our comfortable computer chairs.
The truth is a bit more complicated than that. Yes, Van is right. The roundhouse scores the most knockouts in full contact, and it is a big favorite in point tournaments. In my sparring days, I probably scored more points with it - particularly to the head - than any other technique. That's saying a lot, given that the reverse punch is my favorite. Some of it is indeed timing as Van says. The right fake gets someone to drop the hands, and you fire the foot to the head exactly at the point where you expect the opponent to have bottomed on the hand dropping. As Van alluded, it's hard to teach and hard for some people with no rhythm to do. (That's why I often advise my students to play an instrument or dance a lot).
Gary Khoury covers this subject a bit on his sparring video. He talks about the concept of "checking." Basically you probe your partner with subtle movements, and note how they respond. You make a mental note. Then a few techniques later, you do the same movement and then time an attack to the exact area where you last saw an opening created - with perfect timing. Many good athletes in many sports do this. Wade Boggs - a major league batting champion - routinely let the first pitch go by so he could gage how the pitcher was throwing. He had no problem hitting the ball with only two strikes left after setting his mental gages.
In Joe's case, he told me that his forte was grappling techniques, and the roundhouse was just something he played with. Fine. I reminded him that if his opponent was expecting him to attack with something like a grappling shoot, then that roundhouse was the perfect counter to the partner's anticipation. The dropping of the hands in Joe's knockouts makes perfect sense when you think of it like that. So as I told Joe, the moral of the story was that his success had a lot to do with his having so many options. Options make you less predictable. Options give you a counter to a counter. Options increase the amount of "thinking" your partner has to do when you approach, and that is a very good thing for you. Options come in lots of flavors, like multiple angles of attack, upper vs. lower body, multiple levels of attack (from head to leg sweep), grappling vs. striking, etc.
Shaolin
I completely understand the counter you are proposing. The technique is implicit in a prearranged kumite in our system (kyu kumite, #4). We don't actually follow through with the technique (for safety reasons), but rather just raise the leg when the opponent does the roundhouse...and then proceed on to the next defense in the sequence. A lot of folks who do that exercise think the raising of the leg is all about (only about) "blocking" the lateral technique. When I see folks throwing that raised leg out to the side, it makes me see red. Often I will then explicitly demonstrate the implicit technique (counter lateral technique with linear shot to hip or "jewels"). I get a lot of wide-eyed, Ah-ha looks after that.
We are on the same page. Wing Chun and Uechi Ryu share much in the realm of countering offense with offense rather than a "block." Unfourtunately a lot of our prearranged kumites - choreographed on Okinawa - give people false notions of how to fight. I suppose it's just a nasty byproduct of the pedagogical process.
- Bill
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Evan Pantazi
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Innovative Dan Kumite Take Down
The roundhouse pictured above is right on GB-20 ST-6 and LI-18...this is often the reason for KO's with this technique. I was in attendance at last years tournament in NE where we saw a Roundhouse from that lady take out the other guy. It landed right on ST-5! But I did not visit to rehash those arguments, but rather to show you this innovation to Dan Kumite:
With slight modifications as you will see:
click here!
Innovations (otherwise know as the dreaded "Change") is what keeps the Arts alive. Not to get pressed into a mold, but to take the mold and expand.
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Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
With slight modifications as you will see:
click here!
Innovations (otherwise know as the dreaded "Change") is what keeps the Arts alive. Not to get pressed into a mold, but to take the mold and expand.
------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
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gmattson
- Site Admin
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Innovative Dan Kumite Take Down
Nice combination Evan. . .
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GEM
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GEM
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Evan Pantazi
- Posts: 1897
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- Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
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Innovative Dan Kumite Take Down
Thank You Sensei, but those are Uechi-Ryu practioners. No one has input...this was innovative.
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Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
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Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
