Rick,
Thank you for a well thought out response and also just generally the serious and valid questioning.
Okay, yes, I and some of my old friends are from "school of hard knocks." Our experiences and, perhaps, genetic makeup are not representative of the "average" karateka. Neverthess, we won't know until the average karateka happens to find him/herself in a place when the fecal matter hits. At this point, training does kick in for better or worse.
Really bad training will of course hinder rather than help. I will state I am against the "touchy feely" type of sparring I see in some of the open tournaments. I think that type of sparring and the practice of it over the long haul will in deed hinder in a self-defense situation. So I don't advocate that type of sparring on a continuous basis.
I guess I am not sure our dojo's are encouraging that type of sparring all the time. The dojo's that do sparring that I've seen tend to just let students spar and mix it up a bit depending on level of ability. Then there are dojo's that don't spar at all. I don't know the percentage but I know it's higher than I would like if their goal (or one of) is to help prepare the student for possible self-defense needs. I think the schools that don't spar and those that spar strictly on a "touchy-feeling tag" basis are probably equally the same in perhaps hindering the students' ability to defend.
I would hope George sensei is not looking to promote the "generic sparring" as the type to practice in the dojo. But he is in quandry in recognizing that many students/dojos don't seem to spar at all, or do jiyu type of drills. There is a need to encourage freestyle practice as a part of our overall self-defense oriented curriculum. Maybe "generic sparring" on the dan test will get candidates to begin to take sparring/freestyle as part of the package. Yet, hopefully, it doesn't encourage just solely "generic sparring" in the dojo. I would hope soft sparring will develop confidence and skills that lead to more challenging and harder sparring. Of course, the students themselves (along with the instructor) must decide how intensive and to the edge that they want to train with the specific individuals involved.
Going back to the old Mattson Academy, I think we did harder sparring and had more injuries on the dojo floor than in the competition ring. I think this type of sparring certainly is a test and trial of the students' attributes as well as to promote development of some. When going to tournaments, I think most of us had to ratchet down a bit in order to not get disqualified. There is no doubt in my mind that the old Mattson academy produced more students capable of self-defense than many of the dojos today. The sparring was a big factor in that.
When it comes to dan testing (truthfully I dont' give much thought or care to this process), I think candidates should demonstrate some ability to respond in a freestyle manner. Younger candidates definitely should spar. Older candidates should spar if they feel physically in good shape and don't have lingering or debilitative conditions/injuries. Even older students who elect not to spar should be made to demonstrate their ability to apply techniques in a jiyu format that shows that they can act spontaneously and effectively against an unrehearsed attack. Jiyu type drills will allow that without the banging of a give and take that goes with hard sparring.
I sat with van and george sensei's in bar several weeks ago and bemoaned the state we seemed to be headed in with dojo's because of litigation and such. George sensei, obviously care and must find some accommodation for IUKF. I dont' envy him as he must try something.
As for me, I personally wouldn't want to run a large dojo in this day and age. Give me my informal backyard/garage group, I'll be happy til my dying days.
david
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
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gmattson
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My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Teaching karate is not easy. Whether as a hobby or a business, we must be aware of the liability potential each student brings with him/her to class.
I wish I had the answer to Rick's questions. All I have are training methods that seem to work with a minimum of potential for injury.
We might start a new thread on how this training progesses and how the student feel they are benefitting from it. For now, I'll just sit back and watch what the rest of you feel about the subject.
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GEM
I wish I had the answer to Rick's questions. All I have are training methods that seem to work with a minimum of potential for injury.
We might start a new thread on how this training progesses and how the student feel they are benefitting from it. For now, I'll just sit back and watch what the rest of you feel about the subject.
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GEM
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
As GEM sensei points out, teaching karate nowadays is a tough business. Nobody wants to get hurt and nobody wants to get sued.
Today's people [students] are more demanding and they get uglier than they did in the past if something bad should happen.
I think, as it has been pointed out, we should find a safe balance between safe sparring, as close as we can to Uechi techniques, and more realistic scenario training a la bulletmen, which involves the subconscious much more heavily than anything we might come up with due to the “woof” component that freezes many on the street, along with the shedding of “fluff” we seem to be stuck on in the typical class.
When I watch some of the moves in a typical kata, the way in which they are executed, I want to say a prayer for the man/woman on the floor.
Maloney used to say:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Then we ask our candidates to “show us” their arm and leg conditioning drills in their Dan test.
So what good is it? I want to see their “conditioning” when they are being hit solidly in the legs by power shin shots, also I want to see them being able to deliver power leg shots because it shows me their technique and conditioning in dishing it out as well.
The best fighter on the floor in the last Dan test, was Justin Testa,but then he is a product of the Mattson Academy of the seventies. His technique was very superior to modern day.
One compromise might be to allow candidates to wear shin/knee/thigh guards and allow full power kicks to impact. I don’t know. Eliminating the major Uechi weapons from our arsenal during sparring is not to my liking, even though it is safe.
But, mostly, we need to streamline our Dan tests to a more acceptable blend of tradition and reality so that the student does not feel cheated, as many do and drop out after shodan.
Cut out the unnecessary__ no Hojo undo__ no arm /leg rubbing and pounding__ no prearranged kumite_
But require __ powerful kata [ show the hard as well as the soft] __ realistic bunkai_ free style point format but with leg kicks [so we judge conditioning and ability to deal with pain] _and finish with bulletmen attacks of the verbal and physical persuasion, to demonstrate Uechi techniques under stress.
Work the mind of the candidates, by having bulletmen stand by in full gear [face covered by the helmet] looking on as candidates spar, so as to create anxiety and the production of pre -encounter adrenaline that can sap strength.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
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Van Canna
Today's people [students] are more demanding and they get uglier than they did in the past if something bad should happen.
I think, as it has been pointed out, we should find a safe balance between safe sparring, as close as we can to Uechi techniques, and more realistic scenario training a la bulletmen, which involves the subconscious much more heavily than anything we might come up with due to the “woof” component that freezes many on the street, along with the shedding of “fluff” we seem to be stuck on in the typical class.
When I watch some of the moves in a typical kata, the way in which they are executed, I want to say a prayer for the man/woman on the floor.
Maloney used to say:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Lots of good people I have talked with, object to the leg kicking restriction in our proposed sparring, again for safety reasons. Well, maybe..Van, that’s how we make angels.
Then we ask our candidates to “show us” their arm and leg conditioning drills in their Dan test.
So what good is it? I want to see their “conditioning” when they are being hit solidly in the legs by power shin shots, also I want to see them being able to deliver power leg shots because it shows me their technique and conditioning in dishing it out as well.
The best fighter on the floor in the last Dan test, was Justin Testa,but then he is a product of the Mattson Academy of the seventies. His technique was very superior to modern day.
One compromise might be to allow candidates to wear shin/knee/thigh guards and allow full power kicks to impact. I don’t know. Eliminating the major Uechi weapons from our arsenal during sparring is not to my liking, even though it is safe.
But, mostly, we need to streamline our Dan tests to a more acceptable blend of tradition and reality so that the student does not feel cheated, as many do and drop out after shodan.
Cut out the unnecessary__ no Hojo undo__ no arm /leg rubbing and pounding__ no prearranged kumite_
But require __ powerful kata [ show the hard as well as the soft] __ realistic bunkai_ free style point format but with leg kicks [so we judge conditioning and ability to deal with pain] _and finish with bulletmen attacks of the verbal and physical persuasion, to demonstrate Uechi techniques under stress.
Work the mind of the candidates, by having bulletmen stand by in full gear [face covered by the helmet] looking on as candidates spar, so as to create anxiety and the production of pre -encounter adrenaline that can sap strength.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
------------------
Van Canna
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gmattson
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My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Van. . . You and I have discussed this issue at great length and it looks like we might be able to share a beer or two while continuing the conversation.
I'll jump in with a few comments:
1. Leg kicks: Fine, if every candidate could take a full strength blow to the knee, thigh or shin, without injury. And of course, we have the issue of the kicker's strength. Not all kicks are created equal or can be predictably thrown, to land just below the point where the kickee doesn't sustain serious bone/muscle/nerve damage.
2. Bulletman senerios: I've watched Tony Blauer's tapes and Bulletmen senerio clips. I've participated in a class where the Blauer suit was used. My feeling is that we can't use the Blauer suit for this purpose, since the wearer will get hurt! The suit wasn't designed for the type of fighting you are suggesting. This leaves the Bulletman suit. Even with this heavy padding, the wearer takes a beating, when the fighter is tough and throwing full blown knees, elbows, kicks and fists! So, just because the suit has a safe-sounding name, you can't just assume the wearer is immune to injury.
Having said this, I do believe the bulletman addition to the dan test is a good idea. As a matter of fact, we talked about this over a year ago.
Now, having discussed two points, I would like to remind you of the long-term goals of IUKF regarding training and dan tests. The most important area to recall, is that we must focus on the individual student more than the wishes of the seniors. What I might believe is important to the student may not be either in the best interest of the student or fit anywhere in the student's wish list.
As an organization, we should focus on preserving the basic system and passing it along to our students, much in the same manner we received it from our teachers. The purpose of the shodan test, in my opinion, is to make sure that collectively, we seniors agree that the candidate has reached that milestone with the tools necessary to begin his/her real martial art journey.
Each of us can create our own spin on what these "tools" should look like and how the students should demonstrate their knowledge and abilities, but the bottom line remains that at shodan, the candidate is just beginning his/her journey, not completing it.
We should, I believe, be working on helping the student move from the basics and beginning of their training, on to specialized areas of the martial arts, that is of interest to the student... and not the seniors. . .
Some students may wish to specialize in tournaments. Who are we to say that this is 'unUechi' or something that is 'untraditional' or simply 'worthless'.
After all, no one told any of us what we should focus on in our advanced studies of Uechi-ryu. How can we now, in all good faith, start preaching to our students about how they should be training to be what we might feel is best for them.
Aside from the liability issues, I can't see taking a fairly new and untested student and throwing him/her into a ring with someone of unknown skill, strength and power and tell them to "go at it". We will be recreating that selection process of the 60's, where the normal, dedicated and potentially good student will be turned off totally and those who walked into the dojo being tough, street wise and confident will remain.
We've been there and although it sounds good on paper, we must consider what is best for our students. . . long term. I like the senerio training and perhaps even, more difficult tests for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 6th degrees. . . where that specialization has to be demonstrated and proven.
But lets move calmly and slowly before jumping into something that will prove disasterous long term.
[Not going to have a chance to proof read this... I'm late for a class.]
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GEM
I'll jump in with a few comments:
1. Leg kicks: Fine, if every candidate could take a full strength blow to the knee, thigh or shin, without injury. And of course, we have the issue of the kicker's strength. Not all kicks are created equal or can be predictably thrown, to land just below the point where the kickee doesn't sustain serious bone/muscle/nerve damage.
2. Bulletman senerios: I've watched Tony Blauer's tapes and Bulletmen senerio clips. I've participated in a class where the Blauer suit was used. My feeling is that we can't use the Blauer suit for this purpose, since the wearer will get hurt! The suit wasn't designed for the type of fighting you are suggesting. This leaves the Bulletman suit. Even with this heavy padding, the wearer takes a beating, when the fighter is tough and throwing full blown knees, elbows, kicks and fists! So, just because the suit has a safe-sounding name, you can't just assume the wearer is immune to injury.
Having said this, I do believe the bulletman addition to the dan test is a good idea. As a matter of fact, we talked about this over a year ago.
Now, having discussed two points, I would like to remind you of the long-term goals of IUKF regarding training and dan tests. The most important area to recall, is that we must focus on the individual student more than the wishes of the seniors. What I might believe is important to the student may not be either in the best interest of the student or fit anywhere in the student's wish list.
As an organization, we should focus on preserving the basic system and passing it along to our students, much in the same manner we received it from our teachers. The purpose of the shodan test, in my opinion, is to make sure that collectively, we seniors agree that the candidate has reached that milestone with the tools necessary to begin his/her real martial art journey.
Each of us can create our own spin on what these "tools" should look like and how the students should demonstrate their knowledge and abilities, but the bottom line remains that at shodan, the candidate is just beginning his/her journey, not completing it.
We should, I believe, be working on helping the student move from the basics and beginning of their training, on to specialized areas of the martial arts, that is of interest to the student... and not the seniors. . .
Some students may wish to specialize in tournaments. Who are we to say that this is 'unUechi' or something that is 'untraditional' or simply 'worthless'.
After all, no one told any of us what we should focus on in our advanced studies of Uechi-ryu. How can we now, in all good faith, start preaching to our students about how they should be training to be what we might feel is best for them.
Aside from the liability issues, I can't see taking a fairly new and untested student and throwing him/her into a ring with someone of unknown skill, strength and power and tell them to "go at it". We will be recreating that selection process of the 60's, where the normal, dedicated and potentially good student will be turned off totally and those who walked into the dojo being tough, street wise and confident will remain.
We've been there and although it sounds good on paper, we must consider what is best for our students. . . long term. I like the senerio training and perhaps even, more difficult tests for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 6th degrees. . . where that specialization has to be demonstrated and proven.
But lets move calmly and slowly before jumping into something that will prove disasterous long term.
[Not going to have a chance to proof read this... I'm late for a class.]
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GEM
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Good conversation. We are merely highlighting what many are harboring in their hearts but are reluctant in going public, but I can assure you there is much brewing in the shadows.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
What do they do that we don't do or viceversa? Does IUKF measure up to the Okinawan standard?
Do they allow sparring? Under what rules and format? Do they allow leg kicks? Do they suffer many injuries because of it? How do we measure up to a “standard”?
How do the many other Uechi affiliations train and test? Do we measure up to a world Uechi standard?
This is one area of concern to many of us, as there will be charges that the Mattson group is watering the style down because they can’t take it. Same old S*** George, you know that.
Yet I see the implications being potentially serious. Would the wearing of leg protection be a good compromise?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Alan Lowell can be in charge of that, as he is becoming quite the expert in that regard. I am suggesting the Peyton Quinn/Bill Kipp thing here, because of their program of which Alan Lowell is part.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
The seniors also have the right to expect that the style doesn’t get watered down from the standard we were taught to follow and respect.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I think it is in the best interest of the student to learn how to deal with kicks to his legs under stress. Also to learn to apply those kicks on a moving, uncooperative opponent. Tracy Rose did say that it is not that easy, in spite of thoughts to the contrary.
So what happens if a IUKF trained Dan visits a sister organization, like A Kenyukai dojo, and has to decline sparring for fear of ending up on crutches because he cannot deal with leg shots? How will he feel inside?
I am not suggesting any great deviation from “traditional” except a scenario component, which, according to Alan Lowell, is very safe if done by professionals instead of a bunch of hacks wearing a suit.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
As an example, Toyama sensei requires jiyu kobo for Dan testing. Have we given that a thought?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
It makes them more complete budoka physically and mentally.
Tournaments are much like part of “tradition” in Okinawa. But we must be careful to point out to the student that he should also train the more traditional way, that enables him to compete in Okinawa if he so decides, like our Gary Khoury did, and a host of other American champions.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
like, well, they [GEM/us] are going to do what they are going to do no matter what we say. I hear this a lot.
We want to function as a democracy and allow input and a vote from everyone without fear of becoming children of a lesser God by speaking up.
Who is to decide what’s best for the student? I think the answer is both the student and the teacher, as well as the organizations they represent have equal obligations here.
Look at the minimum input here. It is like teachers and students are afraid of speaking up…why? What is intimidating them?
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Van Canna
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
A matter of concern to be sure. But we talk about maintaining our traditional standards. How do the Okinawans test? Let's discuss modern day testing on the Island.Leg kicks: Fine, if every candidate could take a full strength blow to the knee, thigh, or shin, without injury.
What do they do that we don't do or viceversa? Does IUKF measure up to the Okinawan standard?
Do they allow sparring? Under what rules and format? Do they allow leg kicks? Do they suffer many injuries because of it? How do we measure up to a “standard”?
How do the many other Uechi affiliations train and test? Do we measure up to a world Uechi standard?
This is one area of concern to many of us, as there will be charges that the Mattson group is watering the style down because they can’t take it. Same old S*** George, you know that.
Yet I see the implications being potentially serious. Would the wearing of leg protection be a good compromise?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
This is not what I have suggested. I am saying hire professional bulletmen for the Dan test and charge more per candidate to pay their fare.This leaves the Bulletman suit. Even with this heavy padding, the wearer takes a beating, when the fighter is tough and throwing full-blown knees, elbows, kicks and fists! So, just because the suit has a safe-sounding name, you can't just assume the wearer is immune to injury.
Alan Lowell can be in charge of that, as he is becoming quite the expert in that regard. I am suggesting the Peyton Quinn/Bill Kipp thing here, because of their program of which Alan Lowell is part.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Well I see it as a 50/50 proposition. The student also needs guidance as to what will turn him into a decent martial artist without regrets about his choice of martial arts/teacher. Can we agree on this?The most important area to recall, is that we must focus on the individual student more than the wishes of the seniors.
The seniors also have the right to expect that the style doesn’t get watered down from the standard we were taught to follow and respect.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Well, I don’t know. If “traditional” Uechi training methods don’t fit in with the student, then he can move on to another style.What I might believe is important to the student may not be either in the best interest of the student or fit anywhere in the student's wish list.
I think it is in the best interest of the student to learn how to deal with kicks to his legs under stress. Also to learn to apply those kicks on a moving, uncooperative opponent. Tracy Rose did say that it is not that easy, in spite of thoughts to the contrary.
So what happens if a IUKF trained Dan visits a sister organization, like A Kenyukai dojo, and has to decline sparring for fear of ending up on crutches because he cannot deal with leg shots? How will he feel inside?
I am not suggesting any great deviation from “traditional” except a scenario component, which, according to Alan Lowell, is very safe if done by professionals instead of a bunch of hacks wearing a suit.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Agree. So we could device testing requirements proportionate to the rank being tested.As an organization, we should focus on preserving the basic system and passing it along to our students, much in the same manner we received it from our teachers. The purpose of the shodan test, in my opinion, is to make sure that collectively, we seniors agree that the candidate has reached that milestone with the tools necessary to begin his/her real martial art journey.
As an example, Toyama sensei requires jiyu kobo for Dan testing. Have we given that a thought?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I agree, they can specialize in tournaments if they wish, I think tournaments are a must for every martial artist, even if they only enter one or two.Some students may wish to specialize in tournaments. Who are we to say that this is 'unUechi' or something that is 'untraditional' or simply 'worthless'.
It makes them more complete budoka physically and mentally.
Tournaments are much like part of “tradition” in Okinawa. But we must be careful to point out to the student that he should also train the more traditional way, that enables him to compete in Okinawa if he so decides, like our Gary Khoury did, and a host of other American champions.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Agreed. Thus the reason for these provocative discussions. It seems to me that when some hot issues come up, it always seems to lead to you and I appear as “having it out” because people are gun shy to get into the “conversation”, for fear of antagonizing the “establishment” __But lets move calmly and slowly before jumping into something that will prove disastrous long term.
like, well, they [GEM/us] are going to do what they are going to do no matter what we say. I hear this a lot.
We want to function as a democracy and allow input and a vote from everyone without fear of becoming children of a lesser God by speaking up.
Who is to decide what’s best for the student? I think the answer is both the student and the teacher, as well as the organizations they represent have equal obligations here.
Look at the minimum input here. It is like teachers and students are afraid of speaking up…why? What is intimidating them?
------------------
Van Canna
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
Look at the minimum input here. It is like teachers and students are afraid of speaking up…why? What is intimidating them?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not being a fan of sparring, I'm sure I could have an opinion here and I share similar concerns as have been expressed. But I have not even seen a Dan test, so I don't think it appropriate for me to comment on what someone else should and should not be including in one. Better to leave that to the people who have been there.
I suppose the bottom line though as I see it is that whoever is holding the test gets to make the rules. If I want to test, I play by their rules and then have a ranking (assuming I pass) based on those rules. If I don't want to play by those rules, then I don't test.
Just the way I see it.
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Glenn
[This message has been edited by Glenn (edited April 04, 2002).]
Look at the minimum input here. It is like teachers and students are afraid of speaking up…why? What is intimidating them?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not being a fan of sparring, I'm sure I could have an opinion here and I share similar concerns as have been expressed. But I have not even seen a Dan test, so I don't think it appropriate for me to comment on what someone else should and should not be including in one. Better to leave that to the people who have been there.
I suppose the bottom line though as I see it is that whoever is holding the test gets to make the rules. If I want to test, I play by their rules and then have a ranking (assuming I pass) based on those rules. If I don't want to play by those rules, then I don't test.
Just the way I see it.
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Glenn
[This message has been edited by Glenn (edited April 04, 2002).]
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Any plans to make these changes occur offline? A lot of things have been discussed before online and I was wondering if the strength of ideas has a chance against tradition and inertia. Although, we should keep in mind that these traditions replaced earlier ones. A suggestion I've made before:
Require a Seisan Bunkai... not "the" Seisan Bunkai. Then people get to show they're thinking and creating and not being put thru a mill of some kind. Everyone who knows they would be diced at will by someone with a sword, everyone who thinks using a wauke to drive into the head and redirect it while preparing a second strike is more rewarding than trying to grab and hold a punch, can show what they're working on. And every duo can show how there is more than one side to a technique.
This is how the first bunkai went, no? A good thing lost, I think.
Require a Seisan Bunkai... not "the" Seisan Bunkai. Then people get to show they're thinking and creating and not being put thru a mill of some kind. Everyone who knows they would be diced at will by someone with a sword, everyone who thinks using a wauke to drive into the head and redirect it while preparing a second strike is more rewarding than trying to grab and hold a punch, can show what they're working on. And every duo can show how there is more than one side to a technique.
This is how the first bunkai went, no? A good thing lost, I think.
-
Rick Wilson
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Tony: Why have the same test for everyone is an interesting question. I suppose the problem would come in with a large test. I would think that there would also be questions rising about standards. However, in the end we train Karate for ourselves, so it is an interesting question.
David: As always a great reply. My concern for my students (and the old liability factor) has always been the hard head contact. I need to find some really good helmets, because you have once again got me thinking. We do a number of intensity drills, ground work and jiyu exercises that press the student, but now I have to make sure we are not lacking in that impromptu banging. We condition a lot so the ability to hit and be hit is not an issue; however, in conditioning you know when you are going to be hit and that makes a difference. May be we'll do conditioning where the person being hit has their eyes closed hmmm.
Van Sensei: Many more good comments. I also agree that any Uechi sparring must contain leg kicks because the style's kicking is low level. As a school owner I can understand George Sensei's concern over liability.
George Sensei: Also very good comments that foster open communication.
You stated: "Some students may wish to specialize in tournaments. Who are we to say that this is 'unUechi' or something that is 'untraditional' or simply 'worthless'."
Well, until it was announced that it had been used for Dan Testing certainly not I (unless asked, you know how shy I am about sharing my opinion
). Anyone can focus their training anyway they wish and can tell me to take a flying leap. I am sure many would have their opinions about what I do and is it their idea of "Uechi" as well. I have a friend up here who is becoming more and more focused on tournament sparring. In fact I have always gone to help judge in his tournament. I have no issues with his choice of focus whatsoever because my participation is voluntary. However, if the tournament sparring is required on a Dan test and my students must perform this to attain rank, then yes, I need to speak my piece.
Glenn: I think everyone's opinion is worth hearing. If the majority of those coming up to a Dan test either wanted or did not want tournament sparring to be on it then that should be a factor in the IUKF decision making process.
Ian: We call it Jiyu Bunkai in my school and I think that is, or similar to, what Van Sensei means by Jiyu Kobo (I believe there was a thread on his forum about it).
Rick
David: As always a great reply. My concern for my students (and the old liability factor) has always been the hard head contact. I need to find some really good helmets, because you have once again got me thinking. We do a number of intensity drills, ground work and jiyu exercises that press the student, but now I have to make sure we are not lacking in that impromptu banging. We condition a lot so the ability to hit and be hit is not an issue; however, in conditioning you know when you are going to be hit and that makes a difference. May be we'll do conditioning where the person being hit has their eyes closed hmmm.
Van Sensei: Many more good comments. I also agree that any Uechi sparring must contain leg kicks because the style's kicking is low level. As a school owner I can understand George Sensei's concern over liability.
George Sensei: Also very good comments that foster open communication.
You stated: "Some students may wish to specialize in tournaments. Who are we to say that this is 'unUechi' or something that is 'untraditional' or simply 'worthless'."
Well, until it was announced that it had been used for Dan Testing certainly not I (unless asked, you know how shy I am about sharing my opinion
). Anyone can focus their training anyway they wish and can tell me to take a flying leap. I am sure many would have their opinions about what I do and is it their idea of "Uechi" as well. I have a friend up here who is becoming more and more focused on tournament sparring. In fact I have always gone to help judge in his tournament. I have no issues with his choice of focus whatsoever because my participation is voluntary. However, if the tournament sparring is required on a Dan test and my students must perform this to attain rank, then yes, I need to speak my piece. Glenn: I think everyone's opinion is worth hearing. If the majority of those coming up to a Dan test either wanted or did not want tournament sparring to be on it then that should be a factor in the IUKF decision making process.
Ian: We call it Jiyu Bunkai in my school and I think that is, or similar to, what Van Sensei means by Jiyu Kobo (I believe there was a thread on his forum about it).
Rick
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My concern for my students (and the old liability factor) has always been the hard head contact. I need to find some really good helmets, because you have once again got me thinking. We do a number of intensity drills, ground work and jiyu exercises that press the student, but now I have to make sure we are not lacking in that impromptu banging. We condition a lot so the ability to hit and be hit is not an issue; however, in conditioning you know when you are going to be hit and that makes a difference. May be we'll do conditioning where the person being hit has their eyes closed hmmm.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Herein lies a shortfall. Some uechi folks are seriously conditioned and can take alot of punishment. In sparring, they do moderate to hard contact to the body but NO head contact. Consequently, they don't protect their head as much. I don't do much conditioning except through sparring and drills. Yet, I rarely feel body contact or let it stop me in sparring. Adrenalized on the street, one feels even less. In my informal training group, we do make light to moderate contact to the head. In fact, most folks in the street go right for the head. It's important to learn to face the opponent and not look away even with incoming punches. If you look, you have a chance to deflect or to bob and weave to avoid a direct hit. BUT YOU MUST LOOK TO DO THAT. So, my training includes head contact. In two weeks, out of 6-8 people, we have had 3 black eyes and numerous bruises and scratches, myself included as one of those sporting a mouse. It is not for everyone and certainly liability filled for an organized dojo... Hence my preference for small informal training groups where there are mutual goals and understanding. Some of the newer members are quickly learning not to flinch and look away in face of a strong head on attack.
No, this ain't "generic sparring" but some of the training group plan to be in the Uechi tournament. They're getting prepared.
david
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Herein lies a shortfall. Some uechi folks are seriously conditioned and can take alot of punishment. In sparring, they do moderate to hard contact to the body but NO head contact. Consequently, they don't protect their head as much. I don't do much conditioning except through sparring and drills. Yet, I rarely feel body contact or let it stop me in sparring. Adrenalized on the street, one feels even less. In my informal training group, we do make light to moderate contact to the head. In fact, most folks in the street go right for the head. It's important to learn to face the opponent and not look away even with incoming punches. If you look, you have a chance to deflect or to bob and weave to avoid a direct hit. BUT YOU MUST LOOK TO DO THAT. So, my training includes head contact. In two weeks, out of 6-8 people, we have had 3 black eyes and numerous bruises and scratches, myself included as one of those sporting a mouse. It is not for everyone and certainly liability filled for an organized dojo... Hence my preference for small informal training groups where there are mutual goals and understanding. Some of the newer members are quickly learning not to flinch and look away in face of a strong head on attack.
No, this ain't "generic sparring" but some of the training group plan to be in the Uechi tournament. They're getting prepared.
david
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Guest
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
When I first started Uechi our dojo was in the process of abandoning sport tournaments.
Too many times we scored strikes to the midsection that never scored. Too many times our opponents leaped in the air to deliver weak unprotected backfists. We allowed these strikes to land as we delivered repeated shots to the rib cage. Then we were judged
"Point, Minus Point".
In our dojo we fought with mouth guards and cups, in these tournaments we wore hand and foot gear. We were repeatedly disqualified for excessive contact. Hard for us to understand. I'm sure many of you have heard Sensei Maloney's story of guy they had to have two people hold up so he could receive his trophy after he had defeated Ralph.
We began to ponder the what is real, what happens in the street. Could I stop him, could I take his shot and continue? Our dojo went in two directions too answer these questions.
The really great fighters tested them selves in the PKA.
Those of us less skilled sparred with each other.Sensei then held Nova Scotia's first Annual Uechi-Ryu Championship. Sensei Dunnigan brought the Kentville dojo; Sensei Marshal brought the Mahone Bay dojo. It was great. Uechi kata and sparring. No points awarded for weak shots. Full contact except no contact to the head with hands.
In my mind we made a step in the right direction that year. We fought Uechi style, we fought hard.
I have watched the recent move to embrace sport karate with some concern. Is it diluting the art, a lowering of standards?
I'm glad I don't have to make the kind of decisions GEM and the seniors must deal with. The fate of our style hangs in the balance. Going slow is wise!
I see sport karate as a valuable tool. I see it as a combat kata. Play until someone scores and then stop. Good chance to analyze and make correction. Great way to learn.
Much like I view many of the kumite exercises, it teaches us something and then we should go deeper.
I feel the stopping in point karate does not teach one how to finish. Pulling punches can be a bad habit as well when the real deal goes down. If that were all you have ever done, I would expect it would be exactly what one would do.
I think we need some contact and some continuous situations. How else will one discover how to battle through injury. You can't expect a referee to stop a fight on the street when one gets hit. I think these are lessons better learned in the dojo.
If liability is a big issue insist on signed waivers and heap on the gear. And if your going to gear up make the head a target. It will be on the street.
If we have problem with few folks sparring, point sparring is a great place to start. I'm of the opinion that by the time one tests for Shodan they should be capable of something more than point sparring
Laird
Too many times we scored strikes to the midsection that never scored. Too many times our opponents leaped in the air to deliver weak unprotected backfists. We allowed these strikes to land as we delivered repeated shots to the rib cage. Then we were judged
"Point, Minus Point".
In our dojo we fought with mouth guards and cups, in these tournaments we wore hand and foot gear. We were repeatedly disqualified for excessive contact. Hard for us to understand. I'm sure many of you have heard Sensei Maloney's story of guy they had to have two people hold up so he could receive his trophy after he had defeated Ralph.
We began to ponder the what is real, what happens in the street. Could I stop him, could I take his shot and continue? Our dojo went in two directions too answer these questions.
The really great fighters tested them selves in the PKA.
Those of us less skilled sparred with each other.Sensei then held Nova Scotia's first Annual Uechi-Ryu Championship. Sensei Dunnigan brought the Kentville dojo; Sensei Marshal brought the Mahone Bay dojo. It was great. Uechi kata and sparring. No points awarded for weak shots. Full contact except no contact to the head with hands.
In my mind we made a step in the right direction that year. We fought Uechi style, we fought hard.
I have watched the recent move to embrace sport karate with some concern. Is it diluting the art, a lowering of standards?
I'm glad I don't have to make the kind of decisions GEM and the seniors must deal with. The fate of our style hangs in the balance. Going slow is wise!
I see sport karate as a valuable tool. I see it as a combat kata. Play until someone scores and then stop. Good chance to analyze and make correction. Great way to learn.
Much like I view many of the kumite exercises, it teaches us something and then we should go deeper.
I feel the stopping in point karate does not teach one how to finish. Pulling punches can be a bad habit as well when the real deal goes down. If that were all you have ever done, I would expect it would be exactly what one would do.
I think we need some contact and some continuous situations. How else will one discover how to battle through injury. You can't expect a referee to stop a fight on the street when one gets hit. I think these are lessons better learned in the dojo.
If liability is a big issue insist on signed waivers and heap on the gear. And if your going to gear up make the head a target. It will be on the street.
If we have problem with few folks sparring, point sparring is a great place to start. I'm of the opinion that by the time one tests for Shodan they should be capable of something more than point sparring
Laird
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gmattson
- Site Admin
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My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Age old question and problems: Sparring must be viewed as a game. We have rules and regardless how hard you hit someone's legs or body, it is not real!!!!
Put on armor??? How is that real? Don't hit the face.... not too hard... That is not real!
Face it, there is no real way to test ourselves with the intention of determining how we will fare in a street situation. NO WAY!!!!!
So lets get real and determine what we are trying to accomplish. Sparring, regardless how you define it, simply is another tool, or step, in our martial art training. The closer you push the envelope to a real fight, the more dangerous it becomes, but the more experience the practitioner gains from the exchange. At some point the injuries will negate the gains.
When we talk about free fighting, there are so many variable involved, it is impossible to arrive at a common ground where everyone is functioning with the same rules and under the same expectations.
As teachers, we must balance all these unknowns while coming up with a formula that provides a measure of stress and tests the basic functions of our system. We are not attempting to create the most realistic situation possible, since there is no such animal.
I 100% agree with some type of senerio challenge using professionals outfitted with a Bulletman type protection system, allowing the full out release of 100% self defense techniques taught in our system. The expectations of the candidates should escalate as the grade of the belt rises.
However, even this senerio training is not real and the stress level decreases with familiarity. One quickly learns that the Bulletman doesn't really hurt you and the bad words don't hurt at all.
But it is the best method I've heard so far.
Lets continue to brainstorm, but lets not dilute ourselves into thinking that any of this smacks of "realism".
And most importantly, lets not put our students in "harms way" in order to move sideways in our journey towards realism.
------------------
GEM
Put on armor??? How is that real? Don't hit the face.... not too hard... That is not real!
Face it, there is no real way to test ourselves with the intention of determining how we will fare in a street situation. NO WAY!!!!!
So lets get real and determine what we are trying to accomplish. Sparring, regardless how you define it, simply is another tool, or step, in our martial art training. The closer you push the envelope to a real fight, the more dangerous it becomes, but the more experience the practitioner gains from the exchange. At some point the injuries will negate the gains.
When we talk about free fighting, there are so many variable involved, it is impossible to arrive at a common ground where everyone is functioning with the same rules and under the same expectations.
As teachers, we must balance all these unknowns while coming up with a formula that provides a measure of stress and tests the basic functions of our system. We are not attempting to create the most realistic situation possible, since there is no such animal.
I 100% agree with some type of senerio challenge using professionals outfitted with a Bulletman type protection system, allowing the full out release of 100% self defense techniques taught in our system. The expectations of the candidates should escalate as the grade of the belt rises.
However, even this senerio training is not real and the stress level decreases with familiarity. One quickly learns that the Bulletman doesn't really hurt you and the bad words don't hurt at all.
But it is the best method I've heard so far.
Lets continue to brainstorm, but lets not dilute ourselves into thinking that any of this smacks of "realism".
And most importantly, lets not put our students in "harms way" in order to move sideways in our journey towards realism.
------------------
GEM
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
We demonstrate to the best of our ability what we have been taught by our instructor(s). Family and friends along with our karate peers have seen small but significant transformations over the past 3 or so years since we began our study of karate. Our teacher (sensie) has indicated it is time to be accepted as a "Dan" rank.(He knows I am ready, he wouldn`t he place me in front of his peers, mine and so many others to fail or hopefully 'wing it"?)
Shouldn`t the test be more of an evaluation for the instructor?
Why did the student fail?
And whose student..explain why he/she was here before we pass our judgement on your student.
I have been on both sides of the "Testing Board" and once or twice should have asked the "why was he here?" to the instructor. More often it has been a silent "Damn! he is a better Shodan than I was"
As long as the test is meaningful to the candidates, and allows them to show they have confidence in themselves with a desire to continue to learn and understand. Then the "Board is successful"
My opinion expressed best I could with one busy finger.
Shouldn`t the test be more of an evaluation for the instructor?
Why did the student fail?
And whose student..explain why he/she was here before we pass our judgement on your student.
I have been on both sides of the "Testing Board" and once or twice should have asked the "why was he here?" to the instructor. More often it has been a silent "Damn! he is a better Shodan than I was"
As long as the test is meaningful to the candidates, and allows them to show they have confidence in themselves with a desire to continue to learn and understand. Then the "Board is successful"
My opinion expressed best I could with one busy finger.
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
What's going on here? Have the Dan tests over recent years really been so poor as to consider change? Could it be too many teachers are recomending too many canadates that are less than prepared. Are you looking for the Shodan of tomorrow to be the equivilient of todays Sandan? "I've got mine-it's going to be harder for you to get your's". Are students the problem or...teachers?
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
I have a few points I'd like to throw in here.
I find the discussion about the use - or lack thereof - of various training tools like point sparring or dan kumite rather interesting. This reminds me a bit of the phenomenon you see when attempting to train undergraduate engineers. They sometimes get all worked up about various homework assignments that they view as "useless." And then one day they become an engineer or engage in graduate education and do research. And then they have a NEED for some of those fundamentals... Sooner or later, the work has to be done. Often the unprepared engineer goes back to the very "useless" textbooks and problems (s)he shunned - with a new sense of purpose.
On another subject... "Realistic" sparring cannot be done often. If it's real, then you are getting the s*** beaten out of you. If it's real, then you won't be fighting again any time soon. How often do professional boxers engage in matches? And they at least hit each other with padded gloves. Meanwhile, the student who has "been there" often (not always) understand the value of various training methods. (S)he may not call something by any name that are high on the "wus" factor, but they do various drilling of favorite techniques, shadow boxing, "play" fighting and semi prearranged work, well-organized body conditioning methods, etc.
I have mixed feelings about turning up the volume on the sparring, so to write. I had a sparring partner from a dojo I'll leave unmentioned get a little heavy on me on my yondan test. Fine... I sucked a little wind, did a hissing ibuki breath to get my diaphram back in control, and continued. If you spar long enough, you sort of learn to adjust to the tone of the occasion. Later in the match, the individual charged at me, and the next thing I knew he was falling back with hands to his face. I had completely instinctively given him a shot to his nose that later in the afternoon gave him two beautiful shiners. I felt horrible about it at the time, and thought I had failed for sure. Bobby Bethony was tending to him, looking to see if there was any damage to be concerned about. Only a playful comment by Jimmy Malone made me realize I wasn't hosed. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
At the test, I felt horrible about what I had done. But years later, I learned to appreciate that "he" was in there if I really needed him. I learned I am slow to anger, but I also learned not to go places or put myself in situations where those primal actions were a possibility.
Isn't this what we want in the end? Do we really want to be fooling around with something like that on a regular basis? I don't know... I've always been of the opinion that nothing we do - short of a fight - is the real thing. Each thing I do works on a piece of "the whole." I test the pieces and parts in various ways. And yes, sometimes I get out of my comfort zone and fool around with getting the s*** scared out of me just so I can taste it and keep it from being overwhelming. But... The way I feel and act when I really feel threatened or I'm about to die in an accident is a place that I want to save for the real situation when I can let "him" out. I'm not so sure I want to be "playing" with my friends on a regular basis in such an arena.
Sorry...this probably came out like rambling. But I just wanted to share some of those thoughts.
- Bill
I find the discussion about the use - or lack thereof - of various training tools like point sparring or dan kumite rather interesting. This reminds me a bit of the phenomenon you see when attempting to train undergraduate engineers. They sometimes get all worked up about various homework assignments that they view as "useless." And then one day they become an engineer or engage in graduate education and do research. And then they have a NEED for some of those fundamentals... Sooner or later, the work has to be done. Often the unprepared engineer goes back to the very "useless" textbooks and problems (s)he shunned - with a new sense of purpose.
On another subject... "Realistic" sparring cannot be done often. If it's real, then you are getting the s*** beaten out of you. If it's real, then you won't be fighting again any time soon. How often do professional boxers engage in matches? And they at least hit each other with padded gloves. Meanwhile, the student who has "been there" often (not always) understand the value of various training methods. (S)he may not call something by any name that are high on the "wus" factor, but they do various drilling of favorite techniques, shadow boxing, "play" fighting and semi prearranged work, well-organized body conditioning methods, etc.
I have mixed feelings about turning up the volume on the sparring, so to write. I had a sparring partner from a dojo I'll leave unmentioned get a little heavy on me on my yondan test. Fine... I sucked a little wind, did a hissing ibuki breath to get my diaphram back in control, and continued. If you spar long enough, you sort of learn to adjust to the tone of the occasion. Later in the match, the individual charged at me, and the next thing I knew he was falling back with hands to his face. I had completely instinctively given him a shot to his nose that later in the afternoon gave him two beautiful shiners. I felt horrible about it at the time, and thought I had failed for sure. Bobby Bethony was tending to him, looking to see if there was any damage to be concerned about. Only a playful comment by Jimmy Malone made me realize I wasn't hosed. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
So...what did I learn? I learned that when I get threatened, something wells up inside and I strike out. I've been there several times since then, and have had a similar completely unconscious response.Better not give him any more attention, or he'll be expecting it when he gets home.
At the test, I felt horrible about what I had done. But years later, I learned to appreciate that "he" was in there if I really needed him. I learned I am slow to anger, but I also learned not to go places or put myself in situations where those primal actions were a possibility.
Isn't this what we want in the end? Do we really want to be fooling around with something like that on a regular basis? I don't know... I've always been of the opinion that nothing we do - short of a fight - is the real thing. Each thing I do works on a piece of "the whole." I test the pieces and parts in various ways. And yes, sometimes I get out of my comfort zone and fool around with getting the s*** scared out of me just so I can taste it and keep it from being overwhelming. But... The way I feel and act when I really feel threatened or I'm about to die in an accident is a place that I want to save for the real situation when I can let "him" out. I'm not so sure I want to be "playing" with my friends on a regular basis in such an arena.
Sorry...this probably came out like rambling. But I just wanted to share some of those thoughts.
- Bill
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
How many times have we heard this cry?
There are diverging opinions out there by better men than us, sorry to have to say.
There is a certain "programming" that takes place in scenario training and hard sparring , from time to time, at the subconscious level__ That helps in “fortifying “ us physically and mentally, even if it is not the real thing.
The brain does not know the difference between simulated and real adrenaline response according to the experts.
So we discount all the work of Tony Blauer, Peyton Quinn, of all the coaches of strong fighters, or the opinions of masters from different styles etc. Smacks of Uechi conceit to me.
Ever wonder why we lose so many people after they make shodan? The great majority remains disillusioned at their “achievement”__
Who are we to pass judgment on this? Screw the rhetoric.
There are exceptions as we know, but for the most part a complete budoka is one who has had some pretty good hard simulated combat experience, like hard sparring, hard tournaments, and hard scenarios.
So why does swat training or seal training or special forces training put candidates through hell?
We don’t want to destroy our students but we want to “forge” their bodies and spirit, and a great majority of martial arts masters have ideas much different than what I see written on these pages.
And this is another example of “forcing the hand” __ why don’t we put this to a vote?
I thought we were not supposed to make the damn rules. That is what we are doing.
Still we are not answering the question: Do our students [IUKF] measure up to a Uechi world standard?
What does Okinawa do that we don’t? Why?
What don’t we do that we should __ to get close to a world standard.
How would you guys define “Uechi world standard” ??
------------------
Van Canna
Bravo for you and GEM sensei.I've always been of the opinion that nothing we do - short of a fight - is the real thing.
How many times have we heard this cry?
There are diverging opinions out there by better men than us, sorry to have to say.
There is a certain "programming" that takes place in scenario training and hard sparring , from time to time, at the subconscious level__ That helps in “fortifying “ us physically and mentally, even if it is not the real thing.
The brain does not know the difference between simulated and real adrenaline response according to the experts.
So we discount all the work of Tony Blauer, Peyton Quinn, of all the coaches of strong fighters, or the opinions of masters from different styles etc. Smacks of Uechi conceit to me.
Ever wonder why we lose so many people after they make shodan? The great majority remains disillusioned at their “achievement”__
Who are we to pass judgment on this? Screw the rhetoric.
There are exceptions as we know, but for the most part a complete budoka is one who has had some pretty good hard simulated combat experience, like hard sparring, hard tournaments, and hard scenarios.
So why does swat training or seal training or special forces training put candidates through hell?
We don’t want to destroy our students but we want to “forge” their bodies and spirit, and a great majority of martial arts masters have ideas much different than what I see written on these pages.
And this is another example of “forcing the hand” __ why don’t we put this to a vote?
I thought we were not supposed to make the damn rules. That is what we are doing.
Still we are not answering the question: Do our students [IUKF] measure up to a Uechi world standard?
What does Okinawa do that we don’t? Why?
What don’t we do that we should __ to get close to a world standard.
How would you guys define “Uechi world standard” ??
------------------
Van Canna
