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[Guest]

One thing I don't get in Sanchin is why the wa-uke, etc., is not done with the step

I think it depends on the school and the individual, I try to harness the moving mass with the wauke.

[gmattson]

IMO the purpose in bringing one foot in toward the other is to move the CG off the line of force, crescent midpoint, and then into the center, crescent complete - IOW moving off the line of force and then into the line/their CG. This is mainly why we do it anyhow.

Interesting application. But do you move in this manner every time you step? In my opinion, this is like saying in Uechi, "we step in this manner to move behind the front foot of the opponent"!

But should we move our feet in an exaggerated circle as we step because we might at some time find an opportunity to convert the step into a tripping action? (Don't think I've eveer seen anyone ever make that move work)
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thing I don't get in Sanchin is why the wa-uke, etc., is not done with the step

From what I've witnessed in visiting many dojo, only the new students break down the movements into segments.. i.e. step-block-hit. In most Uechi dojo, it is acceptable and often desirable, to perform the circle ("intercept-divert-control) movement with the step. Many dojo do the circle as they move, actually hitting as the feet land.

[Guest]

here is how I'm doing it at the moment, need more work on compresion on the strike but I'm comfortable with the harmonies of the hands and feet.

http://banffuechiryu.tripod.com/wauke_move.wmv

[JimHawkins]

Interesting application. But do you move in this manner every time you step? In my opinion, this is like saying in Uechi, "we step in this manner to move behind the front foot of the opponent"!

Okay, well in the Sanchin stepping I see a hybrid of linier movement and semi circular movement. The degree to which one uses one or the other would of course depend on how one needs to adapt to the opponent.

As Laird discusses he normally goes linier if they curve and he curves if they are linier; this is what I believe in as well. So you may use more of an arc when needed and less when not needed.

But should we move our feet in an exaggerated circle as we step because we might at some time find an opportunity to convert the step into a tripping action? (Don't think I've ever seen anyone ever make that move work)

Like I suggested you arc as needed. But moving the lead leg into the CG is standard fare for inside styles and is used to control, trap and otherwise immobilize the foot or legs of the opponent, setting up stance/base destruction, immobilization and leg/foot contact and feel.

IMO with inside styles; every time we go inside we need to be responsible for controlling the opponent's legs/base with ours and the lead leg entry position used normally sets the stage for the next phase of their structure destruction. The base or stance should and can be used as a weapon while at the same time the hands are used as weapons, one is more subtle and rarely observed.

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In the old footage of Kanbun's son doing Sanchin I saw the hands and feet moving separately. If the hands and feet should move together then why did he not perform the kata in this way?

[Guest]

George you telling us you have never seen anything like this?

http://banffuechiryu.tripod.com/step.wmv

Hell I saw it as a kid in the school yard where ya been I've seen guys laid onto a table full of beer bottles latter in life with the same reap.

[gmattson]

I misunderstoon your question Jim. Fewer dojo combine arm and foot movements in the first segment of Sanchin. I was refering to the last three angle movements with circle blocks.

Sanchin is a very basic kata, designed to build very strong stepping and arm movements. Combining the forward step with a "chambering" movement or chambering/thrust is more advanced and I guess practitioners believe both will suffer if that is all you do.

That is not to say some dojo don't practice with both combined and in some cases abreviated moves. But generally, Sanchin is performed as independent moves. In my opinion, there is nothing sacred about the kata and therefore I teach many versions of all kata, while retaining the original sequence and basically all the techniques.

Lots more fun that way. . .
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Laird: Yes I'm familiar with that takedown. My point, I guess, was whether it is necessary to perform every step with this one application in mind, in order to make it work when needed. I like the open ended approach, where a movement can be worked in any number of ways. . . but, keeping in mind the primary reason for doing it. . . Balance while moving one foot from a rear position to a front position, and therefore should do that job in the very best way possible.

[JimHawkins]

My point, I guess, was whether it is necessary to perform every step with this one application in mind

My point was that the stepping should/can fill space in the opponent's base. The reference point you attain will not be constant and therefore neither is the application that might follow. What is constant is the idea of eating and filling space in the base of the opponent with our attacking base and position. Most everything contains or should contain an offensive component - thinking of filling this base space of the opponent when stepping can go a long way to learning how to control, destroy and uproot their structure on the inside.

[Mills75]

don't post much read most often and will stay that way but I wanted to join in if I may with how I see it cause this is an interesting one..As far as stepping the whole way over to the opposite foot while doing sanchin stepping I do not cause I feel there is balance issues also and I only come over to my centerline and proceed with the step.I come to the center or halfway but not the whole way over to the opposite foot when doing the cresent or sanchin steps.on the point about seperate movements when the wauke was brought up I feel it depends on what you're doing.In sanchin the last three waukes are done while turning to face an opponent and I feel this is the reason IMHO that the movements are not together.Cause for me I have to turn my head and body to face my opponent and see what he is delivering instead of blocking at air while turning at something I haven't even picked up on the radar screen yet.
now in kanshiwa i am facing my opponent and can see what he is delivering at me already so therefore my waukes and steps are in sync and together.I can step into him while delivering it cause I have him clearly in my line.I think this part of the discussion for me is about whether or not you have the opponent in a position to synchronize the movements.Hope you understand what I mean when I say that.I won't blindly turn blocking into air while stepping and turning but in a kata like kanshiwa where he is in front of me I will step and deliver at once into him...

in fact kanshiwa is a great example of what i'm trying to say in the beginning of the kata I won't turn while blocking at air not Until I pick him up will i do the technique.but in the three waukes with boshikens later in the kata when I am facing already the movements are combined cause i have him right there in front of me in full view. I think it depends...

best wishes guys,
Jeff

[JimHawkins]

on the point about seperate movements when the wauke was brought up I feel it depends on what you're doing.In sanchin the last three waukes are done while turning to face an opponent and I feel this is the reason IMHO that the movements are not together.Cause for me I have to turn my head and body to face my opponent and see what he is delivering

Just my take on your take.

No time to look and see and process what's happening - you'll be so far behind the attack at that point that any real hope of countering will have passed. Instead, and much in the manner I see in Laird's execution of the turn, the eyes follow the hands because you needs to immediately clear the space as you turn to face the threat. This is because the attack will already be there IMO most of the time and this, keep in mind, gives you a chance to, yes clear but also to make contact in order to feel what energy and structure is there. This may not be explored in some dojo but you can bet that Kanbun knew how important feeling the attack is. Turning also aides in the generation of the dissolving force - think of a revolving door - so you want to be able to make use of that dynamic.

In short, turning while clearing and attacking is essential if one is to neutralize the sudden attack from the extreme flanks.

[Mills75]

much respected as always.I just feel there is a slight difference in timing between turning and having him in front of us already.we are always taught that are head is the first thing to turn as the body follows and picks up the attacker so we can counter and execute our technique.keep in mind i'm not saying to take a half hour to turn and set up while the guy kills ya.I'm just saying we turn and pick up the attacker with the eyes first and even though it maybe a millisecond difference i feel there is a very slight difference between facing the opponent and having to execute that turn that may not allow you to have your movements as combined as they would be if he was already conveniently facing you...

Jeff

[JimHawkins]

Jeff,

I would suggest trying it both ways. Have someone attack you from the side. This will be hard to defend in any case, but looking first in order to choose a defense IMO is not tactically sound because you are already in the kill zone - no choice, no evaluation - just clear and attack my freind.

IMO there is almost nothing to see in this range, other than the general center of the opponent. The amount of time the brain CNS needs to see, process and react is not going to even begin to happen in that millisecond you speak of. This is why the clear preceedes the visual even though the eyes may indeed move with the hands they will not have passed the info on and get it processed before you clear. This is the purpose of the clear and use of the structure to take over, in part, for your eyes.

[benzocaine]

When they must ask someone else to come on board to try and bail them out and explain why it must be done in the manner of the dead master then I figure they are just blowing smoke up my kilt . They are hidding behind a dead man because they don't have a clue why: but who's going to question a dead guy.

I think if you invoke the master then you better be able to explain. Other wise I think folks are just out to diss me and they have no ability to discuss the points they have made.

Who's asking anyone to "bail them out"

Re- read my Post Laird. Did I say touch the other foot with the stepping foot? Nope. Said bring it in next to it. Master Uechi does that.. goes to the center line. Why? I dunno, I'm not that smart It's good enough for the rest of the Uechi world.. it's good enough for me. Simple concept for a simple guy.(me)

[Dana Sheets]

Kevin - kudos to you for opening yourself up to comments from the world! You've obviously put in many hours on the floor.

Your sanchin is, IMHO, developing very well. You are clearly your teacher's student and that is a true compliment. Somewhere on this forum is a thread about "Shuhari" where "shu" is the first stage of mastering the fundamentals within a system. It is very clear that you are working hard to learn what your teacher has to offer.

Since you'd like some feedback I'll tell you the only thing that really caught my eye. On your doubles it seems like you pull your hands straight back. It is my preference to hit and grab with the hands before the retraction and then have the retraction be a near identical motion to the strike. By that I mean that your elbows sink down and back through sanchin.

Hard to tell really on video but slow down your doubles for a moment and see if you're starting your retraction with your hands or with your hara. It is my preference to start it with my center - using my entire body in the withdrawl.

I'm glad you enjoy training and enjoy training Uechi.

Rick - awhile back on this thread you mentioned that you'd like to see me make more of the minor arm movement in my circle blocks. This is a comment I've received on a regular basis. I've actually stilled that hand a bit of late in order to concentrate on what you call the major arm movement. I find I can't work on both hands at once.

Ben - for what it's worth I have been taught to teach stepping one foot next to the other as a correction for students who have trouble with the crescent step. Touching one foot to the other give them a reference point. Once they're able to do the movement in what I consider an exaggerated form (one foot touching the other in the middle of the step) then I invite them to keep the feeling of the crestcent while doing a more natural stepping movement. When I ask students to do it more naturally I find that the crescent step comes only to their centerline of balance - similar to how we walk normally.

[Stryke]

The circular stepping is simply for closing the groin , and ...

1)if on the outside you take control of the leg

2) if on the inside your inside there legs and they cant attack your groin with there lead , and you can theirs .

It has nothing to do with Balance IMHO , i walk fine all day without circular stepping .

And come of folk dont be shy , give me some feedback on my kata if you have thoughts .

Re- read my Post Laird. Did I say touch the other foot with the stepping foot? Nope. Said bring it in next to it. Master Uechi does that.. goes to the center line. Why? I dunno, I'm not that smart It's good enough for the rest of the Uechi world.. it's good enough for me. Simple concept for a simple guy.(me)

how do you improve if you dont understand ? , come On Benzo how about some constructive dialougue .

If you choose to be a preservationist then thats great , just dont expect folks to all agree .

Different methods for different purposes , It`s all Uechi ok ? ....

[Rick Wilson]

Wow a lot goes on while I am at work and the dojo.

I think that I will first address my comment of: “Not that it matters” when referring to how Kanei Uechi performed the step.

I think Ben has been around long enough to be cut some slack. I know the comment was “snapped out there” rather abruptly but, hey, let’s still have some friendly fun.

So while these comments were generated by Ben’s comment they are written with no one in mind and to the reading audience at large.

To begin with all we have is some video tape of his Kata. Kata that was performed on film as a learning tool. Those who teach know that when you are performing something to be used for learning then you tend to make the moves more distinct so that the mechanics can clearly be seen. You tend to go slower so that the moves are not lost in the quickness.

Therefore, unless it was Kanei Uechi or Kanbun Uechi themselves speaking, I do not put much stock in something someone heard or something that has come through someone else’s filter.

We ALWAYS filter what we see through our experiences and knowledge at the time. It is impossible to do otherwise so this is not a criticism of anyone.

So only Kanei or Kanbun Uechi could speak to what they do.

I can say I saw this in the video but when Uechi Sensei did a Kata for himself would it be the same? No idea.

There are descriptions of Kanbun Uechi doing Kata so quick that people could not tell if there was an extra kick in Seisan. Yet much Uechi is done without this quickness.

So should I be saying: Hey Kanbun did his Kata quick and yours is slow.

No. I have no idea how Kanbun Uechi did his Kata, all we have is what someone else saw through their filters.

Learning often has us doing or Kata slowly so that we can listen to the movements and understand the principles. What if someone saw a “master” doing their Kata slowly listening. Would they then say hey there is no quick Kata in Uechi it is supposed to be done slowly like Taiji.

There is another aspect that we must consider. Neither Kanbun nor Kanei Uechi may be built physically the same as we are so to try and perform Kata exactly like them is to be caught in the “cloning” style of Karate which denies the individualism that should be there.

If I could see either of the Uechi Sensei performing Kata then I could interpret and decide what I wanted to incorporate. But that would be through my own filter and understanding.

Often people see a “soft” performance and fail to see the power in it, but when they see someone performing and tensing bulging muscles they go “Wow.” This is simply a lack of knowledge. We can only interpret what we either understand or have glimpsed.

So the fact that someone post “Well Master Uechi did it that way so it must be right,” means very very little to me because either you never saw the man or you are working through your own filter from having seen him what is now years ago.

I agree with Laird that it is appropriate to question why it is (perceived as) different and ask for an explanation of the “why” of how you do it.

And if you cannot explain “why” then I have strong doubts as to the observations of what is really being done in the principles of Uechi.


Now as to the stepping.

Jim stated: “IMO the purpose in bringing one foot in toward the other is to move the CG off the line of force, crescent midpoint, and then into the center, crescent complete - IOW moving off the line of force and then into the line/their CG.”

This is a major component of the stepping as I see and one that is very often missed or overlooked. I think the best I have seen at it is Jim Maloney. Jim “looks” like he goes straight in on everyone but if you watch there is this curve or crescent to the approach.

This has a number of advantages. It hits the opponent’s centre from an oblique angle. It also can “disappear” you from their line of sight briefly as you come in and that “may” disorient them slightly in defending.

When you add some torso dragon movements this is even better.

I still would not bring the foot too close but that is just how I see it.

I also see the crescent movement as a knee (low line) attack.

Lots of advantages to getting used to moving this way.