why do I see more style bashing?

[JimHawkins]

Look at the way the punches and kicks are set up, what they are used to set up, and where/how they are applied.

Ah, yes, were they intended to set-up the magic death touch? Many are intended to set up more of the same just like in those crazy sports where two folks hit each other..

Sometimes they are not punches and usually they are not kicks as we might think of the word.

The kicks I learned in karate and the kicks I learned in kung-fu are---um--kicks..

Aikido was designed to be gentle to the person using it, not the enemy.

Feel free to provide some documentation on this.. Aikido is derived <mainly> from Aikijujitsu and according to commonly accepted fact, was done so by Ueshiba because of his deep religeous beleifs--he felt most arts were simply too "crewl" to the enemy.

Luckily, the kata are still around
{snip}
THAT NO ONE TRIES TO CHANGE THEM.

Many kata in many systems, including Uechi, have been changed.. Some changes were quite dramatic as seen in the Wakayama footage.

Changes and arguments over these changes in Japan in many styles have been written about and documented over the years.

Who really cares about the actual martial art?

Most of the posters here..

What the hell is a nukite for?

Used as a weapon to soft tissue but more importantly used by those who know how to weave energy and position..

How about the crane. Is anyone going to use a finger tip strike originating from a bent elbow position to kick someone's ass on the schoolyard?

Has nothing to do with the issue of viable martial art.

The strike can be used by those who know how and I've had a crane guy land a couple on me so I know.

Do you really think that wing chun was devised as a superior way to hit someone repeatedly in the face, or beat a wrestler in the octagon?

Oversimplification..

There was a UFC match won by some guy who chain punched another across the octagon.

Was the art designed for chain punching to the head? Not unless that's all you learned from it..

But it's cool, because as we know, there really is no such thing as a martial art. How silly. Let's all take a bicycle skiing.

Martial arts do exist and we have discussed many of the sometimes subtle and sometimes not so subtle differences. I think the idea that there is no such thing as style is a PC idea designed to eliminate the possibility of differences leading to division. Still, a cat is a cat and a dog is a dog, and, no matter how one might see them as the same or have similar traits they are, in fact, not the same animal, nor do they use the same methods in combat.

Yes Virginia there are martial arts; And for those willing to train long and hard and who have the benefit of good instruction, will benefit from them..

[fivedragons]

Magic death touch?

I'm done.

I just practice for my own reasons. No reason to justify it. It makes me feel groovy.

[MikeK]

Japanification—references a process that DID occur where several Japanese arts were changed for the spoken purpose of making arts more appropriate for training by and for school children <cough> and some American "invaders" .

Jim,
That was actually the Okinawification of karate as it was Ituso who first taught in a middle school on Okinawa. Funikoshi and others in Japan taught at universities.

The Japanese were more guilty of the sportification of karate, which is neither good nor bad.

There was a UFC match won by some guy who chain punched another across the octagon.

Hmmm, I thought it looked more like mai te, oizuki and gyakazuki than WC chain punching. I guess we all see what we want.

[AAAhmed46]

There was a UFC match won by some guy who chain punched another across the octagon.

Was the art designed for chain punching to the head? Not unless that's all you learned from it..

Which UFC?

[JimHawkins]

One of the early ones.. The guy got inside and let 'em go right into the guy's face until he ran backwards into the fence and fell down KOd.. Had to be one of the shortest matches ever..

It wasn't Wing Chun--it was some guy who used sequential, or a series of vertical fists that moved out on the line...

If that's not "chain punching" in the most basic sense, then I don't know what is...

[Bill Glasheen]

I've let this one go without comment for a while just to see where it would go.

Back when I was a lad, we had an old saying - "All discussions inevitably degenerate either to sex or drugs." But of course I was a good boy, so never had any comment on said subjects...

Anyhoo, these threads often degenerate to... something.

Worthy of comment...

Aikido was designed to be gentle to the person using it, not the enemy.

Feel free to provide some documentation on this.. Aikido is derived <mainly> from Aikijujitsu and according to commonly accepted fact, was done so by Ueshiba because of his deep religeous beleifs--he felt most arts were simply too "crewl" to the enemy.

Being a dan and (former) instructor in aikido (Tomiki method), I feel I have some worthy commentary here.

To start with, Ueshiba developed his gentle method of jiujitsu basically because he could. He was a remarkably athletic man who evolved into a remarkably well-trained martial artist. Ueshiba was so good that he toyed with his opponents. He once showed up at a judo tournament and sparred the winner with little effort. He would apologize every time he took the fellow down, but generally could do so without harming him. The vast majority of us wish we could be that good...

For further reading on this (and the four levels of fighting), I recommend reading Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere.

So what's the point? To understand this, the folks hung up on which "styles" are better and who kicks whose ass in the octagon need to read up on the force continuum.

If your only focus in life is doing well in a MMA match, well then perhaps you'll get pretty good at that venue. Fine...

Meanwhile, what's a police officer to do when dealing with an unruly drunk? If you think they can break bad with a shuffle step, a face smash, and then take them out with a blood choke, think again. A MMA's toolkit - absent additional training - is useless in this venue. Anyone remember the films they took of the "drunk" African American man that was taken into custody in New Orleans after the hurricane? CNN and every other LEO-hating news organization ran the clip over and over again, hoping to make either a Pulitzer or prove some political point that escapes me.

There is a level of controlling another that every martial artist needs to learn. Learning how to smash someone's face with a palm strike is easy. Learning to get an uncooperative drunk to do what you want them to do without hurting them is not only necessary under the law (for LEOs), but also is more difficult than just smashing his face, whacking him with a baton, or shooting him. But that's the job of a LEO. They need to be that good. They need to apply the right level and kind of force in the right situation.

Do you know how difficult it is for a U.S. Marine to handle civilians with CNN watching their every move? Even they need to learn levels of force that involve not harming the subject. Their salvation recently has been that the press as much as the Marines in Iraq are often targets of violence. Now all the whining wusses do their "reporting" from the green zone. Those brave enough to go out with soldiers on recon have a different level of respect.

I've made more use of my aikido than most any martial artist posting in these threads has made of their respective native art. My boys know I can extract something from them effortlessly and without harming them. Now they don't even try; all I have to do is look at them. My Great Danes learned very quickly that they couldn't use their weight or considerable strength against me. One of them weighed over 30 pounds more than I did, and could pull on all fours. Meanwhile it was entertaining watching when they figured out they could get the better of someone else. Fortunately they are a gentle breed by nature.

Oh and by the way, this is an art within your own art. The FMAs understand that concept as well.

As I often preach to my students, it's all about doing what you mean, and meaning what you do. Those who can execute with the most precision have the greatest flexibility in applying their arts. The one-dimentional thinkers and the mental masturbating cyberwarriors will win in their dreams, which is mostly what they are good at.

Don't mean to preach too much there but... Now and then it needs to be said.

More on another post.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Many kata in many systems, including Uechi, have been changed.. Some changes were quite dramatic as seen in the Wakayama footage.

The funny thing about "history" is that when something is repeated often enough - whether right or wrong - soon it becomes "truth."

A little history here...

Uechi Kanbun's very first student outside China was Tomoyose Ryuyu. His son is the much-beloved Tomoyose Ryuko. Ryuko Sensei is George's first and main instructor, and has been designated a national treasure in his country.

Tomoyose Ryuko had several instructors, but he did work out with his father. I have heard stories of some of the "lessons" that father would give son. Let's just say that I believe Tomoyose Ryuko knows a little something about what "old Uechi" looked like.

Tomoyose Ryuko was present when the "Wakayama dojo film" was made. He was there with George. Want to know what he thought about what was going on at that dojo? To be gentle... He basically said their karate wasn't very good. They were a first school of Kanbun, and he didn't teach there very long. He left, and they sort of held something together for a while. By the time George and Ryuko made it back there, what they were doing was basically demonstrating what happens when a bunch of average people try to maintain "something" with little help from a knowledgeble martial artist or organization.

But give them credit for the effort anyhow.

Don't make too much of Wakayama. I know my teacher (George Mattson) would rather we not make too much of his early ways before his karate had a chance to mature. And God knows I hate looking at a "time capsule" version of my own Uechi methods... My greatest curse would be a student from 1978 who could replicate what I was teaching back then. The next worse curse would be someone who worked with me for a year, and then claimed to "know" authentic Uechi Ryu.

- Bill

[Seizan]

They were a first school of Kanbun, and he didn't teach there very long. He left, and they sort of held something together for a while.

Just a "historical bit" to add here... The film was not made in the first dojo, nor was it a dojo that Kanbun Sensei ever taught or set foot in.

Kanbun's dojo (at the time he left Wakayama) was on Showa Dori, in the Tebira section of Wakayama. It was a tiny place with a dirt floor.

When Kanbun Sensei left Wakayama, he gave the dojo over to Ryuyu Sensei who moved a few years later to another location (I am told it was just "further up the street, and a bit larger"). In 1957 Ryuyu moved it again to Kokusai Dori where that film was made (in the mid-60's). Though it is told he taught there until his death in 1971, he had in fact retired from teaching shortly after moving the dojo in 1957 - he turned it over to his son Ryuwa who shows up in the film as the teacher. I believe Ryuyu Sensei's name was used on legal papers and in the dojo as "dojo owner" until his death, but in fact he had little to do with teaching or correcting at all. So, no further input.

This supports your assessment of how the style had changed by that time. Same system, yes - and a wholly different style of performance.

Regards,

Seizan

[Bill Glasheen]

Thanks for clarifying the details.

It almost seems your assesment is tongue-in-cheek. Let's see...

* Kanbun never set foot in there.

* The school in question largely was being run by Ryuwa from the outset.

So, whatever "it" was can't be said to be "old" Uechi. It was several generations past Kanbun. And in my experience, whenever you have a changing of the guard in teachers, you often lose most if not all the old students. It happens...

Changed? But of course! Every generation and every line can be expected to change. And in that era without modern communication, large organizations developing a consensus, and people several generations removed from a source, we would see change.

We most certainly shouldn't consider what is on the Wakayama film as being anything more than what it is - people practicing martial arts.

- Bill

[Seizan]

Thanks for clarifying the details. 8)

It almost seems your assesment is tongue-in-cheek. ;)

"From Wikipedia:

Tongue-in-cheek is a term that refers to a style of humour in which things are said only half seriously, or in a subtly mocking way. To say something in a tongue-in-cheek way is to speak with irony."

Nothing of the sort. Just thought I was helping out with a seemingly ignored fact.

Apologies for intruding.

Regards,

Seizan

[Stryke]

So, whatever "it" was can't be said to be "old" Uechi. It was several generations past Kanbun. And in my experience, whenever you have a changing of the guard in teachers, you often lose most if not all the old students. It happens...

several generations ..... you uechi folks must have short life lifespans and rapid breeding rates

the Uechi system you all do is not much more than 50 years old right ? .

it`s a self evident system once you cut away the ad ons . Not good karate etc etc , it`s all a bit pungent , the core stuff is self evident and diversity only strengthens the style .

[AAAhmed46]

One of the early ones.. The guy got inside and let 'em go right into the guy's face until he ran backwards into the fence and fell down KOd.. Had to be one of the shortest matches ever..

It wasn't Wing Chun--it was some guy who used sequential, or a series of vertical fists that moved out on the line...

If that's not "chain punching" in the most basic sense, then I don't know what is...

Vitor? Saw him do something like that.

is it him?

[Rick Wilson]

Scattered comments;

“A "famous" karate man from Japan came out and led with a flip floppy low round kick only to be taken down a moment later.. I thought it was sad. This was not my idea of true karate and regardless of the outcome I would have liked to have seen "true karate", perhaps one day..”

Sadly not the worst expression of Karate in the UFC. A Godan (give him credit for stepping in the ring) was a horrendous confirmation of the no contact training.

“There was a UFC match won by some guy who chain punched another across the octagon.”

It was Don Fry I believe in his first fight and the opponent weighed in at 660 lbs. Might have been UFC 10 or so.



Aikido actually used to have a great deal of atemi in it and if you see the pictures of Ueshiba at 45 years of age and under you see them all demonstrated in the illustration of techniques.

When you see the pictures of him performing as an elderly person the strikes are gone.

The autobiography of Ueshiba should be read because as a younger man being rough was not an issue.

But as Bill pointed out his skill became an extraordinary thing and he did it later because he could.

This makes it difficult when you are not at that level to perform these moves without the set up strikes.



My view:

Is style important?

Yes because it gives you a frame work to build from.

Does style make you successful?

No. Training does.

[JimHawkins]

Sadly not the worst expression of Karate in the UFC. A Godan (give him credit for stepping in the ring) was a horrendous confirmation of the no contact training.

Well I don't know anything about this man's training... But I had spoken with and worked out with several folks who trained in Japan in various systems of karate and along with my own experience training and reading in karate--I was expecting something different that night--I mean who would they send over here to fight, if not one of the best? Or so I thought..

The folks I had spoken with that trained in Japan related stories of very hard-core training, harder even than the sparring we did in my old dojo which was hard. The "focus" "intent" and "power"--the single mindedness to destroy the opponent-- this is what I had expected to see and did not. I don't care if the guy looses in the end, but I expected to see these key attributes that I still associate with "true karate."

[Stryke]

You continually confuse the student as the vehicle of the style

when in reality the style is the vehicle of the student .



it`s the individuals that win , and the rest of the (insert style) wannabies will ride on there coatails . Or burn them from the sidelines .

all competitors deserve respect , to label them as not doing true karate , what is that ? , will it make others weaker if they feel there worshipped styles not infallible , to loose makes it bad style x ?

maybe just a better opponent , a bad day , a rapid learning curve .