"Worthless" kumite?

[Rick Wilson]

Hey don’t worry Gene I never thought you were dissing me, you were only expressing your opinion.

Van

2green -- great quote!

George: Did Seth comment on whether Uehara Sensei said these Kumite came from Kanbun Uechi Sensei or added later as it happened with others down the line?

Great comments, Max.

[gmattson]

I found an interesting thread on Cyberdojo this morning. Apparently we aren't the only ones trying to express, in words, why and how we study karate. One of the posters (Richard) feels that the martial arts are simply a method of self defense and everyone must do them for that reason only. He gets upset when anyone thinks, speaks or does something that deviates from his philosophy. Terry responded with a great post, which I'm sure he won't mind me publishing:

Subject: RE: Martial Arts and Spirituality

Hi

Someone, I can't remember who exactly, claimed that Sun Tzu linked martial arts and spirituality in his art of war. Unfortunately, they didn't give any supporting quotations.

The person who mentioned this link requested that Richard "read the book", then would discuss the issue with him.

My point about the link between martial arts and spirituality is not that none have been claimed but that the claim is akin to the western claim that boxing and indeed sport in general improve character.

I have also repeatedly offered up for consideration a URL link to a serious academic article which demonstrates that the association between Buddhism and external (so called Shaolin) arts and Taoism and internal arts is a tradition that only really crystallized at the end of the 19th century.

To date, no one it seems has bothered to respond to either of these arguments.

I also believe, and I will look it up this time, that one of the Karateka interviewed by Mark Bishop in the book 'Okinawan Karate' said that when he originally learned the art no one talked about Zen but the breathing patterns and exercises were the same.

Finally, I believe that some of the talk of spiritual development also originated in the association between martial arts and the Chinese triads (mutual organisations) which were often quasi religious in nature. Again I have yet to hear anyone come back to me on this.

If you truly wish to convince me of the spiritual nature of the arts, you will have to do better than this.

Anyone?

Richard

Now the reply from Terry:

From: "Terry L. Bryan" Subject: Re: RE: Martial Arts and Spirituality

Richard, Why you constantly try and pursued others to see the world through your eyes is beyond me but why not give it a rest for a while. Karate is a double-edged sword.

A sharp knife in the hands of a madman is a very terrible thing, while in the hands of a skilled surgeon saves lives. Each of us will get out of the martial arts what he or she wishes to.

Those of us that see the arts as a method of personal growth and an excellent way of teaching youth positive qualities for their future success believe that it has tremendous value. If you want to believe that karate is just about fighting and has no spiritual value, then that is great for you. I will not try and convince you otherwise, because if that is what you believe, that is what you will get. Those that live by the sword, die by the sword and all that.

For over 30 years I have watched as training in the martial arts as impacted the lives of my students. Going from shy and insecure to having great confidence, able to set goals and in control of their lives. All your babbling about reality in training will not persuade me one bit from my personal belief that the martial arts has a positive spiritual side.

This can only be achieved however if one has discipline and respect, for his art and teachers. I once had a teacher ask me that if I closed down my school would my students be better off or worst off if they had to go and train somewhere else.

If your answer is better off then you should close down your school, but if they would be worst off then you should strive to run a successful school.

Since you have admitted to having no respect for the art, then I suggest you quit martial arts training altogether. Go spend your time doing something you believe in. Spending time trying to convince others to be negative like you is a war you will not win and is very annoying for the rest of us on the list.

I remember a quote that goes, “ You are born with two eyes, two ears and one mouth; and you should use them proportionately.” I suggest the keyboard is an extension of your mouth.

Respectfully, Terry Bryan

Another letter on the subject:

Subject: spirituality and mastery

Hello everyone,

Maybe no one wants to discuss spirituality with you, Richard.

What do you mean by "spirituality", anyway?

As for mastery, who determines whether the student can "go it alone" because he needs no more instruction? The student? Or the instructor? In my experience, the most knowledgeable of instructors are always open to learn from any source they can. No one is above instruction. Masters are those highest up the mountain. There is no "one rule fits all" by which to judge the people of the past, any more than there is of the present.

Those who have truly trodden the hard road have the arrogance knocked out of them. Arrogance is a hindrance to learning. I see the most helpful and instructive people on this list as demonstrating the least arrogance. When one truly understands, one does not need to mock or criticise other people or their ideas or practices in order to make one's own appear better or more worthy. One tolerates and accepts. If one's way is good it will speak for itself. Destructive criticism is a sign of immaturity and insecurity, as well as ignorance.

How long does it take to become a master? An unanswerable question, as it should be. It is not time alone that counts. There are no instant transfers of knowledge or complete understanding. Some people are born to plod, others to fly. Some begin late and travel faster. There is no competition, only the struggle within. Those who worry about how long it takes, take longer because they are only interested in the destination and not the journey. To others, the destination shows the way, but the way is an end in itself. One doesn't wake up one morning and see a door ahead with "mastery" on the other side. One day the path beneath one's feet seems different but one can't remember when it changed.

(No personal claims inferred. Only personal perceptions offered.)

Yours in karate

Alicia

[Guest]

deleted

[Bill Glasheen]

I'd like to ask some hard questions here. Thank you kindly, Laird, for the indulgence.

You see the punches that would never land

Is this the fault of prearranged kumite per se?

Anyone care to do some with me? I love doing prearranged kumite with people; they look so shocked when I actually hit the target (and not their block) with a technique.

Do you have the experience and the ability to be able to stand still, drop your hands by your side, and know an attacker will miss? (BTW, a good boxer does this...) Or should I be paying attention to the "no touch" practitioners and assume it's just my superior chi?

No wonder some shodan candidates disappear after passing their test.

Is it really "no wonder"? Where's the evidence that kyu and dan kumite cause successful shodan candidates to quit karate? Where's the "control group" with high ranking dans that don't quit? I'll spot you a little selection bias here as we all know nobody's done the RCTs.

why is it we never see a demonstration of Kumite on steroids in a dan test

Where can I find any karate practice "on steroids"? What's your definition? Is "high energy" equivalent to effectiveness?

If I'm an effective fighter, do I continue "high energy" attacks if I'm not landing them? If so, what's the strategy?

I don't consider these drills of value,two much co operation is required too perform them.Last time I checked fights are not the most co-operative events.

Is cooperation a valuable asset in a dojo? When is there not enough? When is there too much?

Can you show me examples where a dojo with "the right amount" of cooperation has harvested a reasonable number of effective practitioners that don't quit after a few years?

- Bill

P.S Don't cop out and take your ball home. Let's stay constructive here.

[Van Canna]

George: Did Seth comment on whether Uehara Sensei said these Kumite came from Kanbun Uechi Sensei or added later as it happened with others down the line?

My information is that none of these kumites came from Kanbun, they are something developed in more modern times.

Shoshin Nagamine (who happens to be a master of a variant of
Shorin-ryu ) says in _”The_Essence_of_Okinawan_Karate_Do”_about the practice of kumite:
“the more
you move away from the opponent's attacks, the more you will
be busy defending yourself from him.
Kumite in which with one hand, one-man
blocks the opponents attack and attacks him with the other.

Here ends kumite in spite of the fact that further movement
of the opponent is possible.

Carefully analyzing this type
of kumite, we can easily recognize that it
it is only, after all
an "artificial or “dead” kumite"

We should also, as part of our mental
attitude in practicing kumite, bear strongly in mind that
our opponent may vary his attack, and endeavor to be always
prepared to defend against such variations.

Motobu, my sensei, used to preach against "dead kumite.”
Craig:

There is some relatively recent material on Motobu Choki and Motobu Chosei that is quite interesting. It appears that many of the past generations of Masters collaborated, intentionally or otherwise, on technique. Material from Motobu Sensei is certainly not alien to a practitioner of Uechi Ryu. He certainly seems to advocate a much more practical block and counter timing as is described here.

Bottom line in my book: Kumites are an essential early tool, to which __ with more effective training methods should be added in advanced stages before we trump our ability in self defense to new students.
Again

how many people taught tournament style
kumite as self=defense have been killed in assaults and died thinking they
knew effective self-defense?

Now, I know..this guy is all wet..

So how many unsuspecting people train with heart and soul and body in
these stupid nailed-to-the-floor Kumite and "self-defense" methods,
certain that their High Ranking Instructor would not lead them astray?
And die or get unnecessarily injured as a result?

This guy all wet, or what? No way, right?

Laird, not to worry about what George posted, just respond to the person’s insults with your own.

George does not mean to offend.

A simple test:
I’d like to see a demonstration of Kumite technicians vs. David Moy’s flow drills technicians. This should be a Dan test requirement.

[gmattson]

Amazing how you can post things like you did earlier and find fault with what I quoted.

An old horse would require a considerable beating to make it palatable. .......I feel the same way about all of these pre arranged kumites, I just can't swallow them, they just won't go down. When I try to do them I feel like I'm stuck in someone's delusional fantacy.

How do you think people who train with kumite might feel when they read this?

I don't want to act out someone elses dream in two part harmony, I want to train effectively.

Who is stopping you from training effectively? I didn't make the Uechi-ryu dantest requirements. The Okinawan teachers did.

I don't consider these drills of value,two much co operation is required too perform them.Last time I checked fights are not the most co-operative events. I keep hearing from folks that these drills are great, that we are doing them wrong if we can not find the value.

I belive Van has stated on many occasions, that the two person drill we do at the Hut are not the "dead" kumite he is referring to. He and I have been trying to upgrade the manner in which these drills are performed. We may differ on the value we place on doing them and I certainly don't mind him or you stating that you don't like them. But when you call people who do perform them "delusional" and some of the other very nasty things said, then you are guilty of what you accused me of.

Well I've yet to witness anyone doing them any different. I see them done faster but I see little else, I just see two people doing a delusional dance. making it look good.If the drill must evolve and be steped up to be effective why is it we never see a demonstration of Kumite on steroids in a dan test.

If you read these statements and I substitued a training method that you favored. . . how would you feel? Do you think it is fair of you to refer to all students who practice kyu/dan kumite as "doing a delusional dance"?

Kumite on video rocks! You can edit out the poor sequences and reshot them so they look better.

Another "zing"!

There is some real professional stuff on the market , real slick , performed by well respected and high ranking people.It looks spectacular!

I wonder how Fedele and other students who allowed themselves to be videotaped feel about this statement?

And when you view it in slow motion you learn some of the lessons of kumite drills. You see the punches that would never land, you see the attacker punching to where the block will take them. (no need to block your partner knows where he's going to go and they help you out) Keep in mind these are advanced dan ranks , who I would suspect know how to do it right. All I can see is fast powerful make believe, high speed co operation.

Why couldn't you just say "I don't like prearranged drills and therefore don't do them"? Why is it so important that you try to make those of us who do them feel incompetent, stupid and delusional because we don't agree with you?

What I see is embarassing when I realise this martial fantasy must be duplicated at a candidates shodan test.

Now we are engaging in a "martial fantasy".

Surely we could find better test material.

This is the first "constructive" statement you've said. Instead of belittling us poor delusional individuals, you could have expanded on this statement and suggested something better. Perhaps we could put boxing gloves on the candidates and let them go three rounds of full contact kickboxing. That should keep all the students coming back after earning shodan in Uechi-ryu.

Sounds like half the Uechi community don't even buy into the fantasy any longer.

Not sure I understand this statement. It my understanding that Uechi-ryu is growing quite rapidly and all the dojo that I'm familiar with still perform the traditional Uechi-ryu dantests. (I wasn't at your test, so not sure if your teacher/association "bought into the fantasy" or not.

Some schools train the material to get through the test and then disguard the practice after.What a waste of training time.

Seems to me some excellent teachers trained with me, performed prearranged drills and went on to become quite famous in the Uechi world. Can you really say that they "wasted their time"?

No wonder some shodan candidates disappear after passing their test.

I have hundreds of students who continue to work out with me after 30+ years. And thousands who trained various times and for whatever reason, quit. Do you really want to stick with your comment that prearranged kumite is responsible for anyone stopping their training?


They have caught the bullet in their teeth, they have performed the magic fight. When they reflect on their accomplishment they wonder what they have achieved, have they learned anything or have they just performed the illusion with their partner?????????

This is also a harsh thing to say on a Uechi board. For better or worse, prearranged drills are a part of the current Uechi curriculum.

(no offense to those who have tested, I respect your accomplishments,I just think we can do better in our test material)

IUKF has been working towards a new testing standard for over five years. There are still a majority of teachers who believe the pre-arranged drills are a viable and useful tool for safely moving a student from kata to free fighting. Most dojo use a multitude of other drills and senerio training to help make their training as realistic as possible while still retaining its traditional values.

I always welcome and encourage positive suggestions for improving our programs. I don't enjoy reading posts such as yours, that simply try to demoralize and ridicule.

The letters I posted said what I felt much better than I would have able to say it after reading this thread. The letters simply sumarized my feelings that people should be able to state whatever they wish about what they feel are good training methods. But, they shouldn't try to ridicule everyone who thinks or feels differently from them.

People train for many reasons. I don't live my life as though a killer was waiting for me around every corner. I enjoy working out and studying karate. I don't enjoy lifting weights or doing Taibo. I enjoy the aerobic nature of the kumites. I know from experience that my reflexes, timing, speed and power have benefitted from practicing them. Because this is a Uechi website, I share my positive views on the subject with words and videos so people can try new approaches to something many students don't fully appreciate or utilize. You are encouraged to do the same about what you believe will make Uechi-ryu better.

If you've read any of my many articles, posts or editorials on the subject, or if you've talked to anyone whose attended SummerCamp, you will discover that I introduced to the Uechi community most of what we are now calling "realistic" training. Uechi-ryu has evolved considerably since my first camp in 1983. . . mostly because we keep an open mind and continue to learn.

I don't think we have ever met Laird, nor do I know your dojo experience, teachers, number of students you have etc. There is nothing personal in my last post or this one. Up until now I have enjoyed reading your posts. for some reason, people have a difficult time discussing prearranged drills. . . and they act like a fire and brimstone born-again preacher trying to "cast-out" the devil! Hell man. . . its just movements.

I hope that after you read this you might try to appreciate how it sounded to the students and teachers who, for whatever reason, enjoy kyu and dan kumite.

In friendship... George



Laird

[gmattson]

George: Did Seth comment on whether Uehara Sensei said these Kumite came from Kanbun Uechi Sensei or added later as it happened with others down the line?

My information is that none of these kumites came from Kanbun, they are something developed in more modern times.

Quite possible. However, had Kanbun lived to the present time, would you bet that he would be teaching the same way as he was in Wakiyama?

Shoshin Nagamine (who happens to be a master of a variant of Shorin-ryu ) says in ”The_Essence_of_Okinawan_Karate_Do”_about the practice of kumite:

“the more you move away from the opponent's attacks, the more you will be busy defending yourself from him.
Kumite in which with one hand, one-man blocks the opponents attack and attacks him with the other.

Here ends kumite in spite of the fact that further movement of the opponent is possible.

Carefully analyzing this type of kumite, we can easily recognize that it it is only, after all an "artificial or “dead” kumite"

We should also, as part of our mental attitude in practicing kumite, bear strongly in mind that our opponent may vary his attack, and endeavor to be always prepared to defend against such variations.

Motobu, my sensei, used to preach against "dead kumite.”
Craig:

There is some relatively recent material on Motobu Choki and Motobu Chosei that is quite interesting. It appears that many of the past generations of Masters collaborated, intentionally or otherwise, on technique. Material from Motobu Sensei is certainly not alien to a practitioner of Uechi Ryu. He certainly seems to advocate a much more practical block and counter timing as is described here.

Interesting quote, but not very relevant regarding Uechi-ryu. I spent time at Nagamine's dojo when he was still actively teaching. Would you believe that half the class consisted of drills similar to my old kumite 3 & 4? (high, middle, low punches. . . Uke- moving to rear-: high, middle, low blocks.) Very basic and designed to teach students fundamental reactions to punches, using very linear blocks. . . totally unlike our "intercepting" block/attacks. At the time he was very upset at his son, who used to take some of the more advanced students and go into the fields to do free-fighting. Nagamine was 100% against freefighting. Could we be misinterpreting what he meant by "dead kumite"? He may have been talking about jiu-kumite and not pre-arranged drills.

Bottom line in my book: Kumites are an essential early tool, to which __ with more effective training methods should be added in advanced stages before we trump our ability in self defense to new students.

I'm assuming you are referring to prearranged drill here. . I agree that if a student desires to become more effective at fighting, he/she should not stop development with pre-arranged drills. Self defense senerios certainly have a place, although students become somewhat immune to the stress of bulletman attacks after a couple of sessions. They "know" they aren't going to be hurt and therefore become more effective. Can we draw the conclusion that after a couple of sessions they will react so successfully in a real fight?

A simple test:
I’d like to see a demonstration of Kumite technicians vs. David Moy’s flow drills technicians. This should be a Dan test requirement.

Interesting, but I believe David worked with us at the "Hut" quite a few times, using his flow drills as part of kyu kumite!" He helped us develop many of the newer approaches we are taking with these drills. If I remember correctly, he got hit as often as the rest of us! Great fun and a great lesson.

[Guest]

delete.

[Guest]

The letters I posted said what I felt much better than I would have able to say it after reading this thread.
The letters simply sumarized my feelings that people should be able to state whatever they wish about what they feel are good training methods. But, they shouldn't try to ridicule everyone who thinks or feels differently from them.

How do you think people who train with kumite might feel when they read this?

how would you feel? Do you think it is fair of you to refer to all students who practice kyu/dan kumite as "doing a delusional dance"?

Why is it so important that you try to make those of us who do them feel incompetent, stupid and delusional because we don't agree with you?

Do you really want to stick with your comment that prearranged kumite is responsible for anyone stopping their training?

I always welcome and encourage positive suggestions for improving our programs. I don't enjoy reading posts such as yours, that simply try to demoralize and ridicule.

GEM no we have never met. I thank you for taking the time to respond.It was your last post that rung my bell, Sensei Mattson. I now understand why you posted those letters. Believe it or not I was not aware of others feelings or even considered them. It was not my goal or nature to be little anyone, who am I to judge others.. I have chosen my words poorly. I have a habit of leading my chin in debate. I owe you and all on these forums a sincere apology. I hang my head in shame and hope those who I have insulted understand I honestly meant them no harm. I clearly see now how my words were hurtful and my posts counter productiveI don't know why everyone has put up with me for so long. I should have been banned long ago. . I feel like such an ass.


Laird

[Van Canna]

Quite possible. However, had Kanbun lived to the present time, would you bet that he would be teaching the same way as he was in Wakayama?

Possibly not, but given he was a practitioner of jiyu Kobo, he would have embraced many of the modern concepts, which may or may not have included prearranged kumites.

Again, my position is that prearranged kumites are essential early tools, just as long as a teacher doesn’t try to sell students that they are all he needs for self-defense without more specific, specialized training.

Could we be misinterpreting what he meant by "dead kumite"? He may have been talking about jiyu-kumite and not pre-arranged drills.

Possibly. Although on the Italian forum, where I got the quote from, the reference was to prearranged kumite.

Self-defense scenarios certainly have a place, although students become somewhat immune to the stress of bulletmen attacks after a couple of sessions.

The key component of adrenal stress training, as according to the studies of Peyton Quinn, is to provide the fighter with the opportunity to learn to control these adrenal responses. This is widely misunderstood in spite of my having spent years; it seems, of presenting Peyton’s work.

Peyton

If an individual has never faced stand up aggression or violence before [ most students] before
He/she will often freeze up and choke when confronted with it. The aggressor is counting on this freeze up reaction, and when he sees it he often attacks right then.

The practical self-defense benefits of getting used to the adrenal reaction are enormous. I believe it is more important in a real fight than polished technical skills. [See page 100 of Peyton’s book “real fighting”]

The idea of developing muscular memory by learning to execute striking techniques full force under adrenal stress is the key to training people to defend themselves with this method.

Peyton goes on to write that this training method has the effect of maximizing retention of learned skills as per research done at the center for neurobiology of learning at the University of California at Irvine.

The study suggests that the brain has two memory systems, one for ordinary non-emotionally charged information, and one for emotionally charged experiences for great survival value.

Peyton “ Everybody involved in these adrenal stress conditioning programs has noted that individuals who take the basic course and come back a year later, without having practiced in the interval, are invariably better when they return a year later than they were the final days of their original training classes. The power, accuracy and timing of their strikes are better, their handling of the woofing stage is also improved, as they are more relaxed and more decisive.[/quote]

Interesting, but I believe David worked with us at the "Hut" quite a few times, using his flow drills as part of kyu kumite!" He helped us develop many of the newer approaches we are taking with these drills. If I remember correctly, he got hit as often as the rest of us! Great fun and a great lesson.

He also taught classes at my Brockton TC__ The objective of the drill is to get hit in the face and be able to function in spite of it. David explained that In fact, not getting hit is not what the drill is all about.

He explained that training for survival techniques requires developing instinctive reactions under adverse conditions [including getting hit] that have the widest possible range of practical applications, and his flow drills do just that, much more so than the preplanned action of prearranged kumites in my view.

Also the drill teaches the adrenal response control because adrenaline flows more when face contact without protection is involved.

The drill is excellent also because it forces an examination of your own inherent tendencies under fire, your mind set about engaging in close quarters, as Darren has written on another thread, and your final performance under more realistic risk factors.

This is something we don’t see at Dan tests, and we have discussed this before, but I am not sure how to introduce any of this in safety.

Absent any of this, I still believe that the closest thing to achieve this adrenal response control, is free sparring without protective equipment the way it was done in the 60’s, something we cannot do today anymore.

[Greg]

In regard to Kyu and Dan Kumite, which are sometimes collectively referred to as yakusoku ('arrangement' or 'promise') kumite (though Shohei's recent addition of a different exercise with the same name has further confused the nomenclature...), my opinion is that their value or lack thereof lies in how they are utilized in the dojo - they are simply tools used to teach a set of skills... Take David Moy's reaction drills, formalize them and do them in a stilted, wooden fashion - are they still worthwhile? The yakusoku kumite can be an excellent building block for distancing, timing, and reaction, but only if they are taught in a way that facilitates this. That means that one should not still be practicing these as a nidan the same way as one was doing them as a sankyu. All too many dojo treat these drills as if they were part of a time capsule and then it's this way of practicing them that gets presented as "this is Dan Kumite..."

Most of the truly combative arts I have studied or seen have had one thing in common - two person, prearranged sets. Filipino blade and stick based arts sometimes refer to this as 'rolling' or the 'rolling pattern.' The idea here is to learn a set of prearranged movements and then depart from and return to that pattern over and over in training. Escrimadors generally do not depart entirely from the pattern for more than one or two movements, since this can degenerate into a 'free for all' and result in injuries (or worse when working with live blades) or necessitate starting the drill over again since stick or knife fighting often does not go on long before someone is 'finished'... In addition to the skills involved, the main advantage to this drill is that individuals who train at different schools can train together utilizing this common exercise. Taking the argument that yakusoku kumite is worthless regardless of the training emphasis with which it is conducted to a logical conclusion; these drills too are worthless...

My point here is that we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. By all means, let's come up with new and better ways to train the skills that we deem important, but if the same thing can be accomplished using a drill we already have, so much the better.

greg

[Stryke]

Not an Uechika and not sure if my 2 cents will be welcome but I`ll throw em in anyway if there deemed inappropriare moderaters feel free to delete .

Laird I dont think this is just an Uechi problem , A lot of TMA follow blindly there traditions , there are so many reasons (good or bad) not to change , but there are also many martial scientists these days , people that understand why so much better than before , theres so much information ....

The standard answer form most heirachys is feel free to add .. but this is whats important and must be shown to test .... I personally think the only thing that should be judged is kata ability and understanding and ability to utilise and applie the styles techniques , this should be able to be demonstarted in any individual way .

The problem is the judging then becomes an art , it`s not regimented enough , to much room for interpretation , hard to sell/market standardise .

I think training is a science , and fighting and kata the art , if something is not usefull for you discard it .

It`s not daily increase it`s daily decrease , do whats usefull and helps you .


The standard look deeper statements are exzactly what irritates the innovater , the if you understood youd know better so shut up and train era hopefully will pass , My Shotokan drills I prefer to do look more like Muai Thai , and yes I still call em shotokan drills , and do they work ???


once again this is directed at traditional training systems in general , I`m deffinately not trying to upset anyone , although even I can see how it could be taken that way , I guess some people who arent traditional still want to share a greater community of Martial artists , I personally think this more how the old masters would have trained , what works for them , but then my guess is as good as anyones , since no one actually can agree on anything in MA , and this to me is the best reason to follow your own intuition

[gmattson]

We all make mistakes. Its over. . . lets move on. . .

Best,
George

[Bill Glasheen]

Van

Very nice post. Thank you.

- Bill

[Rick Wilson]

These forums are an excellent vehicle to post opinions and discuss those opinions.

I have found that most martial artists are very passionate about the opinions they hold. My teacher would tell me (and has) that a good Zen practice is to give up opinions. I certainly have not reached that state.

I am trying to take small steps; such as it is okay for others to have a different opinion. Hard to believe but there are people out there who disagree with me.

Where I haven’t quite made the leap yet is in letting that opinion get expressed without challenge or letting that opinion make claims without challenging those claims.

Often postings on the forums are challenges of a kind. Not in the sense that some may think but in the sense that they slap you between the eyes and make you think. You might think, okay your saying that this is true, well … BS, back it up.

OR

On the other hand the replies to the challenges I have posted often have caused me to rethink some of my positions. Or at least modify them. Or simply put them aside for further thought and consideration. All because people have risen to the challenge and backed up why they felt or believed as they did.

To me that is the greatest benefit of these forums.

But we are passionate in our beliefs and that can cause us to be very forceful in our presentations. At times this offends people. At times it makes people reluctant to post. At times it makes people really think about what they believed. At times it makes people change their thinking (both sides). At times it makes you enter the debate and express why you feel the way you do. At times it solidifies why you believe what you do. The only sad result is the times posts cause people to work behind the scenes by emails instead of up front and in the debate.

Here comes Laird who makes a passionate and very blunt post. Some have risen to challenge his post with their beliefs. Obviously the manner in which he posted offended George.

I liked George’s second post. It laid out very clearly where he took offence and why. Faced with this Laird agreed and apologized. George accepted his apology and everyone moves on.

This was a very good exchange and a good lesson for all of us in communication as well as the handling of conflicts on these forums.

In any event I think it is a good reminder for me to hold back on the emotional (because I am as guilty as anyone) and stick to the facts.

A good example of this is Bill’s reply to one of Laird’s comments about punches that would not have hit anyway. He questions if this is the fault of prearranged work or the execution of the prearranged work?