Principles vs. Techniques

[Rick Wilson]

Halford:

“As we watch such, do we absorb the principles being sometimes expounded or do we focus on the techniques being demonstrated to illustrate the principles? Ask yourself this question and see what your honest answer will be.”

My honest answer NOW is that I look for the principles.

Honestly for much of my early training I focused on learning the movements / techniques. I read and read (yes many of those books you mentioned) and watched tape after tape. I gathered techniques.

Now I prefer to read about the underlying principles and watch for their expression on tape. But it is clearly the principles I am after.

When I see a technique now I try to understand the principles used and I would on making what I saw work.

Now, how do I know what I am doing is applying the principles and not just doing the technique? Well, after I have watched a tape and garnered what I believe are the principles I usually do not look at it again for some time. When I finally do I see that I am doing the technique differently. The principles that make it work are the same but the technique has altered.

Not the greatest empirical evidence to be sure but to me it shows the use of principles rather than the copying of technique.

In response to your other comment, yes I know the various types of people.

I have been thinking about TSDguy’s comment about how we learn. This may be why the gap between our posts is not closing.

I am, however, enjoying the comments and opinions very much. Glad you jumped in Bill.

“With time we become the principle we merge with it ,or become as one with it .” Yes.

[2Green]

Halford:
Have you considered this:... that teachers (good ones) think in terms of principles, but students think in terms of techniques? I think this is where you're going, by the sound of it.
Generally I believe this to be the case, because initially students can only see the techniques, not the principles behind the techniques.
Good teachers understand the principles and teach them within the techniques.
I can give you an example, but I don't know if it will make sense...I don't know your Uechi background.
Forgive me if I over-explain, OK?

The technique:
A simple fore-arm block to a punch, blocking from a hands-up/out position, across your body, to the centre.
OK, if your forearm is pointing too straight up, then you must wait until the punching fist is dangerously close, because your forearm is too close to your body.
If you stretch your forearm out too much, you limit your block to a very narrow band of sweep, crossing your body.

But if your elbow is a little over one fist-length from your ribcage, and your forearm is extended at 90 degrees to the bicep, (45 degrees to the floor, )and your fingertips are shoulder-height, and you bring the entire forearm across, then you have a more effective block; a better chance of intercepting the blow at a reasonable distance, not reaching for a specific intercept point, and protecting both your sternum, solar plexus and ribs.

Now, if you had to break all that down for a new student, it would be a lot of information.
But if you just show them the technique, which we call "Sanchin arm position", and they learn this, they have absorbed the principle almost unknowingly, while learning a "technique".

And by the way, I have to thank you for this thread, man. It's been great, dissecting this distinction, and I do think it's important.
Could you provide some specific responses to the replies you've gotten so far, before advancing more analogies?

NM

[Stryke]

so whens a punch a technique , and whens it a principal ?

same with an armbar ?

Try it if it works it`s a trick for your collection

if it doesnt expirement , learn , practice

techniques only limited by your mind , same with principals

.... Understand the rules so you can break em , dont get trapped by the rules .

all above is semi toungue in cheek , I`m enjoying the discussion

but dont forget the moon in all its heavenly glory .......



Respectfully

Stryke

[Halford]

If there is anything practical it has to be brick-laying! Thanks for a great example for this discussion! From mud-baked bricks to straw bricks,etc. we can build a great edifice and from simple techniques developed on the ancient battlefields(?) we can create great systems of martial arts! So the building blocks of karate are the basics, the bricks! Thanks for this again. Keep up the good work. Halford

[maxwell ainley]

Different angles of observation ,are really what are keeping this topic alive .
Typical of uechi practioners ,and other style practioners to attempt to extract more from some times simple appearing concepts/principles/techniques /stratergy .
I always look for the archetype principles of sanchin in all I do ,I have mentioned before when climbing a ladder up to scaffold levels a relay of seisan hand guard 's seisan move no1 and rising knee .
At the top of the scaffold level ,I exit the ladder with the the last step off ,before the final closed gate position in sanchin ,falling away from danger to safety ,the trailing hand lets go from the ladder ,at the last second of the projection forewards .

When returning to the ladder to decend ,I grasp the ladder with one hand seisan hand guard and do the sanchin turn to finish up safe on the ladder ,to desend is a reversal of going up ,and exit at the bottom is the step off in sanchin .

When cradling a baby in my arms its a position transition move move from sansei rui that can be traced back to seisan ,and back to archetype sanchin .When reaching out to shake hands with some one its the opening move of sanchin ,the grasp and then release ,when opening a bottle of pop for the kids its a mini motion from san sei rui ,When opening a newspaper its from sanchin the transition within arriving at the hand guard.
When seated at the steering wheel of a car ,van or wagon its seisan hand guard ,as it shifts its from sanchin ,I like a mini shiko dachi leg positions ,with the on off press down on foot pedels similar to the horse stance foot positions in sanchin .
When combing the hair I am aware of the crane hand position in seisan .

When putting a half hitch on masons line its similar to back to back shokens in sanseirui .
The list is endless ,observation of a principle soaking the juice out of it in all I do .practice practice practice always and everywere .

max.

[maxwell ainley]

1. A general principle .

2. A expanding principle

3. merging with the principle

Three evolving aspects of a principle ,we can very easily never understand a general principle ,once we understand it in general terms we can become stuck with it ,this really translates as mind /body is stuck ,become fixed.
Expanding the principles .
Practice practice practice , in situations every were at any time will get possibilies on the move .and keep them moving .A bit like a cowboy we need to round up the principles and take them every were ,in other words don't let grass grow under them .

merging with the herd of principles is the next step ,man herd of principles as one ,we see the principles feel them every were and all ways .

max.

[Stryke]

This is a great thread , great observations !!!


I guess the difference between technique and principles is understanding and possibly freedom .

[Halford]

Combing one's hair can, along with a host of other similar motions,even brushing the teeth maybe, be related or integrated into martial arts as martial arts movements or techniques,etc. The natural strength and vitality of certain professions such as, farmers, fishermen,loggers,etc. is often lacking in modern,contemporary professions where everyone sits on their duff and wiggles their fingers over computers,etc. Anyway, exercise and work can be harmonious if one follows certain 'principles' as some of the forum members have indicated. There is more to this subject, of course, but I just wanted to drop some hints that others have expanded or will expand better. Keep up the good work. Halford

[maxwell ainley]

Sanchin is archetype movement ,to attempt to train to see this is purpose .

Hand gun holstered on hip ,using a archetype segment from sanchin the opening I reach the gun in a smooth flowing motion , I glove like cover the gun handel,again with a segment archetype aspect from opening ,I continue the pulling principle from sanchin releasing the catch,bringing the gun free,moving it forewards spontaneously narrowing my body position into a side door principle from sanchin all in flowing well practiced moves .


max.

[Halford]

Did the techniques of music exist before the principles of music? Surely to find music originally one had to make music and the technique had to be refined. There are those who play by ear and those who read notes. This again is the conflict between theory and practice, the abstract and the concrete. Or is it? In Western Music for a long time, the mental abstract systems prevailed, that is,to know music one had to learn how to read notes. In the East, it was, one had to hear notes. Imitation and repetition are the two great aspects of Oriental Music. We see or rather hear Monotony in most Eastern Music,save for those influenced by the West. Well, I leave it to the musically inclined to work out this. Thanks for your time. Halford at http://arnis.homestead.com

[Halford]

The noble art of killing began with just a way to survive as mankind emerged from the caves in which they hid,if they ever did such all the time, and from various objects seized to smash the skulls of opponents and other creatures, certain observations were made and eventually some found the sharper the stones and rocks used, the more they penetrated and eventually the genius of mankind prevailed and spears and stone knives and arrows,etc. came about. Chipping the stones, flaking the stones, and so forth gradually took on refinements that led to certain principles. The search was on for;THE PERFECT WEAPON, THE PERFECT TECHNIQUE! It has never stopped.

[HALFORD E. JONES]

Science is based on empirical, pragmatic considerations, step-by-step, until one has sufficient information and data to establish principles. Principles are often equated with theories but theories really make use of principles derived from techniques(or collected data,usually from experiements,experience, observation,etc.) I suggest you study the foundations and methodology of science and then go onto art. Scientific thinking is not necessarily critical thinking or philosophical thinking.

[Rick Wilson]

No thanks, Halford. I’ll stick to what I do. It seems to work well and improve the effectiveness of my art fine.

I have tried numerous times to explain my distinction between the terms “techniques” and “principles” to no avail. Perhaps we are all too attached to our own interpretations of these terms.

I distinguish them because it the distinction is applicable to how I train and learn.