Abusing Uechi-ryu

[Van Canna]

Rick,

Thoughtful post.

There seems to be a great misconception that people cannot disagree on these forums. Many seem to disagree all the time.

Disconcerting, because unless you agree with them, or you make them feel “threatened” in their traditional beliefs, they feel “dissed” and call you a “bum” in not so many words.

What I do see is that some of the people who feel they cannot disagree are actually upset because the other side simply does not capitulate and agree with THEM once they have stated their opinions. The other side often asked for some kind of rational for the opinions or simply challenges their opinions.

That is because the only thing they can say is: well, master X said you do it this way, master X always did it this way, or, I have always been able to “defend myself” with what I know.

I find them usually uninformed, lazy, in that they won’t spend time to do research, and gullible as hell. They simply are not up to the task of debating from a solid foundation. The “dissed” club members.

People can either step up or defend their positions or not.

They won’t because they can’t, other than find refuge in “my sensei always did it this way and his sensei did it this way to.” Then they proceed to tell you how they were able to keep a kitchen dish from falling to the floor because of their training.

“But, what the heck does "traditional" means?”

Good question. From what I have seen lately, if I claim to be a traditionalist I get to claim moral superiority.

You hit on a key point. They also get “strutting rights” in their contempt for others, yet if you ask them to step into the ring for a friendly match, they suddenly need to go the “John” …. Like “ No..That is not real fighting, when I fight, I fight for real.”

We have seen many examples of that “fighting for real” one of our seniors got two fractured jaws in an attack by a competitor he was judging. The comedy continues.

I see them as constantly evolving entities that continually seek improvement. This differs from many people’s opinions of what a traditionalist is but to me it is what is reflected in the histories of the creations of our art.

On deaf ears, Rick. They feel threatened in their beliefs in the Holy Grail and in their teachings, so they “lash out”

GEM refers to them as “closet senseis” in a panic because the internet has “invaded” their “prisoners’” err..students’ minds.

“A lot of folks have been making comments in what I would consider as "unfair" toward the so called "traditional Uechi" practitioners. Knocking their t'sshing, the katas, knocking everything close to being "traditional".

My first thought is then step up and debate.

We have been inviting debate for years on this; look at the manner in which David Moy debates from very solid foundations, much like Dave young encourages doing on his forum.

The problem I see, is “no credible foundation” so no debate.

My second thought is what do you mean by everything close to being traditional because as you can see above I have a different opinion on it. I do not consider drills to written in stone or sacred traditions.

This should really be a “no brainer” to intelligent people, not to imply anything against Henry, because this is a widespread problem, showing very clearly how pernicious the traditional brainwashing is..Like “how dare you question this stuff, why master X and master Y said this or that, so it must work”

So when some question, knock or disrespect the t’sshing, why not jump on and explain why you do it. Discuss and debate.

Should make sense, but if there is nothing there, then no debate. Much like “empty mushin” and you’d be surprised how many “parrot” Mushin, without a working knowledge of what it really means.

I was originally told it was so that the instructor could hear when you breathed. Well, sorry, pretty poor reason (in my mind anyway.)

Another reason given was that if you breathe out with the strike, you “steal” power from your technique.

Enough to give you laughing fits. That must the reason why Olympic athletes do explosive breathing in the “Shot-put” events, to lessen the power of their throw..right?

Here it comes “ but, but, throwing the shot, is not Uechi” Talk about delusive mindset. If you want to argue TSST, do it [don’t mean you Henry] in a credible manner, and there are a few good reasons for it, as we said, breathing is a flexible thing, there is a time to Tsst and a time not to. Going back to the breathing threads will provide an excellent education on this.

If a person’s response is “I just like to do it that way.” Well, okay. But that about ends any discussion. They are absolutely correct that it is their right to do so, and they should feel free to continue to do it. But it won’t go far to convince someone else they should. And there isn’t really anything to debate. (By the way many Okinawans do not do it either.)

True..Many Okinawans have done away with Tssting entirely, and Tomoyose sensei told us at camp that many of the seniors are breathing out with the strike.

Also, many Okinawan masters, such as Takara and Nakamatsu senseis, are teaching more body movement in the kata mechanics. Nakamatsu sensei had Master Uechi’s blessings on his method before he passed on.

Take a class from Walter Mattson, Takara’s student, and you will learn something very exceptional.

Your comments on how kata was taught, Rick, falls in line with the way Kanbun taught, according to Toyama sensei, who studied with him from age 10 to 18.

He would teach kata, piece meal, and he would not show his students’ kata in its entirety, to keep them focused on the moves.

So, yes some question today whether just doing forms is enough because many people just doing forms haven’t had the foundation of application behind the practice.

Amen.

[hthom]

Rick, excellent post. We really don't have much disagreement there.

From what I have seen lately, if I claim to be a traditionalist I get to claim moral superiority. (Henry, I am NOT referring to your post here but others.)

May be I don't visit the forums enough but I haven't noticed the "moral superiority" that you mentioned. Honestly, what I see is the other way around.

I do not consider drills to written in stone or sacred traditions.

Neither do I. I do my katas the way I feel comfortable in doing without worrying about meaningless stuff such as my elbows and feet and hands might be off by 1.25 degree. I teach my bongai's as close to the way that is done in most dojo's but slightly modifying some movements I feel would be more realistic. I add ground fighting to my drills too. But I am still a "traditionalist" and I don't feel any "moral superiority".

As for the t'sshing, my teacher David Mott does this with a qigong purpose to work explosive reverse breathing (read compression) as well as some deeper Qigong purposes.

Beautiful! I t'ssh for basically the same reason but if I mention that then it is just another can of worms I would have to be ready to deal with. I have read what have been said about Chi Kung or Qigong in some of the posts. No thanks to those guys who did all those phony street Chi Kung tricks that give such a wonderful art a bad name.

By the way many Okinawans do not do it (t'ssh) either.

No disrespect to them but that doesn't mean anything to me.

I deliberately started two threads on this forum (and others on other forums) in the last few months --------These threads garnered very little response and petered out very quickly. WHY? --------Then where were all the detractors and why did they not respond to my post or start their own?

Not to make excuses again, it take a person with a lot of time and certain ability in debating in order to do it. I don't have the time or ability. I don't think that I am alone on this.

If you have a different opinion on the body mechanics of the strikes then express them and why.

Well, OK. For example, I believe that the first three punches in Kanshiwa should be thrown with full power coming from the legs to the hip and shoulders like Mike Tyson would throw his killer punches. I believe that the knuckle strike in several of our katas can also be done (but not necessary) with power from the legs to hip to shoulders (but I aim it to the throat instead of the ribs because we have guys here with 3" of naturnal protection anywhere near their chest---, does it make me any less of a traditionalist?). However, I don't think that the spear hand strikes should be done with that level of power, for me anyway, because it will break every joint in my hands if I made bodily contact. Also, I don't think that the hand movements in our Sanchin kata should be done that way either because I consider the Sanchin more of a Qigong exercise than developing knockout strikes with full "body mechanic". Oh boy, Qigong? I can see it coming now---

I think there is a question of how you do your kata and whether just doing Kata is enough to prepare you for the streets.

No disagreement there either. Let me get in front of the line in saying that katas alone won't help anyone in fighting. Period. That is a clear cut statement from this "traditionalist".

I happen to do most of my Kata very slowly trying hard to listen to each and every movement to feel and understand it better. There are many ways to generate power and some will do their forms differently because of this. I think discussions on these methods only improve our Kata.

That's my point exactly. We do it the way we want to do it and the way we feel comfortable in doing it. Discussing how we do it is one thing, but knocking how someone else do it is what I am talking about.

When you read about the old style training, be it Chinese or Japanese, the forms were taught differently than today. They would teach a move and then have you explore the applications of that move over and over. Then the next move etc. Only after having learned all the moves and having explored the use of these moves did they get put together into a Kata.

This is a different story from what I heard and experienced but doesn't matter. The couple of years when I studied KungFu it was horse stance and katas and horse stance and katas. Oh my god!!!!!

So, Henry, as you can see there would be many opportunities for discussion on the points you raised. And with your experience and time in the study I think you would have much to add to the discussions. (I also have read you posts before so I already know that to be true.)

Thanks for the comment, Rick. We need to get together some time. How about the next Summer Camp at the Cape? The only reason I am here playing with my PC today is because of the holiday otherwise I wouldn't have the time for it. There are really no arguements or disagreements that I know of. May be it is just the term "traditionalist" itself being misconstrued or misused, by me anyway. I don't do my katas like a robot. I don't pay much attention to the exact location and the measured angle and distance of my hands and feet and elbows like "they" would insist on (and love to correct everybody else on). I don't blindly do the bungai's and Dan Kumite the way "they" want but close enough so that my students can workout with folks from other Uechi dojos. I mix Muay Thai and ground fighting and plain old street fighting with my self defense lessons. But, I am still a "traditionist".

May be there should be a more appropriate term instead of "traditionalist" for those folks who are so ridiculously rigid and robotic in their mind and ways, and are doing their Katas like "chicken dance" thinking that it would do them a lot of good when they are attacked in the streets. Calling those folks "traditionalist" only discredit the real "traditionalist" and hence my comment of being "unfair". I know a lot of great Uechi "traditionalists" in the various Uechi organizations and they are not that way at all.

Let's come up with another term for those folks, shall we?

Henry
www.selfdefense-lessons.com

[Halford]

Masters X,Y,& Z learned their katas and everything else under MASTERS A.B.& C! Appeals to all kinds of authority have been done in all the arts and in other fields as well but without some authority which lends a certain foundation to what one is practicing, then one might say that historical lineage and perspective is lost. The crucial test of all this is how long did one learn under these venerable masters and what did one actuall learn under these venerable mastersl We generally find that in the end, there were no secrets really given to those who we think really special,etc. even behind closed doors! Whether closed doors or closed windows,the reservations of some not to impart "the secrets of karate or kungfu or whatever" cannot actually be verified objectively. In today's world of martial arts, the masters,however, are now replaced by videos, cd-rom,books, manuals, and a vast number of gadgets, devices, and so on. The previous authority held by the masters is now eroded and everyone can become, as we have seen in some glaring examples, a master, an instant master, a "fear no man" expert,a founder of a system, a grandmaster,etc.,etc.All these things are reinforced by certificates, awards, medals, trophies, belts, etc. So perhaps when all is said and done and the dust has settled, it might well actually to behoove some of us to actually say, well, I don't really know much about any of this, but here is what Master X showed me, taught me, and this is the way I remember him doing it! The same goes for masters Y & Z. I mention this because in the long run, years from now, are you going to point to your vcr /dvd player and say this what my tapes and DVDs taught me,showed me, and did? A live teacher is better, in my estimation, than any gadget or machine or media but that is my opinion. Halford

[Van Canna]

Interesting discussion.

Finally the question comes down to what defines a “traditionalist” or a “modernist”

There are “stomach turning” abuses of this at both ends of the spectrum. The answer lies in a “balance” between the two, given the path of evolution.

Here is one extreme example, yet we have a few of these, as I have encountered :

Traditionalist

awkward, blank, boring, conforming, dependent, depressed, directionless, dispirited, doubtful, downcast, dull, fatalistic, fearful, hesitant, indecisive, indifferent, lazy, leery, monotonous, nonchalant, passive, pessimistic, plain, reluctant, reticent, self-deprecating, self-righteous, shy, silently stubborn, slow, sluggish, timid, uncreative, unenthusiastic, uninvolved, unmotivated, unsure, worrier.

Oh well, a bit heavy…but food for thought.

We, in Uechi Ryu, are all traditionalists or we would not be practicing the Uechi structure, as we all still do to this day.

I consider myself a traditionalist, but open to the modern view of improving what I think I have, through modern studies and evolution of defensive concepts.

It is only natural that, along the way, different shades of variations would emerge from a number of well-respected seniors. Even Kanei Uechi, modified his father’s style, and Kanei’s formidable seniors, have come up with their own excellent variations upon a theme.

All innovations come from some tradition, which has to be developing at some rate. During the slow developmental periods, perhaps the innovations within the art of origin went off on a tangent so that, to contemporary ways of thinking, there was no real improvement. Then some single innovation or group of innovations opened the door to a new, more rapid period of development in which more innovations flowed.

Bruce Lee is responsible, I think, for accelerating innovation in the martial arts and should be applauded for it, however, one should not assume that the martial arts were not developing and changing anyway, albeit at a slower rate.

[Tony Annese sensei]

Takara sensei is said to be the closest to resemble Kanei sensei, in technique and temperament, yet he teaches an extremely powerful variation of Uechi kata with rotational body effect.

I would recommend the skeptics to take a few lessons from Walter Mattson sensei, Takara’s student, to understand this concept.

Similarly, Nakamatsu sensei has brought Kata’s body mechanics to a higher level.
Take a look at Dana’s Kata, as she demonstrated at camp. And you will understand. But I digress.

Here is a wonderful article by Tony Annese sensei, which should bring a new understanding to the subject matter

The original founders of the arts we call "traditional" may very well have refrained from calling their creations "traditional" because their arts were in the process of developing at the time.

We do not talk about traditional football or baseball players because no one practices a form of these sports using older rules, uniforms, or other conventions as separate from contemporary football or baseball.

We call "traditional" those who keep alive arts not in current use. A bow and arrow expert might be considered a traditional warrior if he used his weapon in circumstances where others would use M-16's or AK-47's. He would be a traditionalist because in contemporary times, bows and arrows are not used, nor even practiced for use in war. In this sense, all Asian martial arts are traditionalistic.

Continued…

[Van Canna]

Tony Annesi

In self-defense, traditionalism means little. We do what is necessary in self-defense, not what is our art. We do not make sure our wrist reversal looks like the version taught in aikido or Hwarang-do or ju-jutsu or Shorinji Kempo, nor do we make sure we apply a wrist reversal instead of a punch (just because we studied a grappling art) if the punch would be more appropriate. In self-defense, we use whatever we know, whether or not it is recognizable as an art, let alone a traditional art. In self-defense, we are all contemporary eclecticists.

Continued...

[Van Canna]

Annesi

What passes either as traditionalism or modernism is the method of training. All methods of training are shaped by the goals an adherent wishes to achieve.

A tournamenteer who trains for open tournament may be referred to as a Modernist, while a Traditionalist, it is said, trains for closed tournaments, but both are using arts in a way which preserve at least a vestige of combat (and are thus Traditionalists), while neither is preserving the art as combat (thus both are Modernists.) Both are developing their arts, but in their own milieu and at their own pace.

Practitioners develop their art to improve and achieve within their own goal-structures. The labels which they adhere to themselves do not label their arts but their attitudes.


Traditionalists are in the unfortunate position of having labeled as a "traditional" art that which is no longer in use for actual combat.

Those traditionalists who wish to popularize the martial arts, by expanding the influence of their style or the attendance of tournaments, etc., seem to belie their own term for themselves because they wish to popularize the practice of those arts which are no longer used in combat but which can be practiced for many other reasons.

Thus, they wish to put into use for other goals that which is no longer used for the original goal. Traditionalists who wish to popularize also wish to become Modernists in that they desire a new use for old practices.

Of course, there are those traditionalists who do not wish to apply their arts to modern needs at all but to preserve them for the sake of historical accuracy. These are not really traditionalists in my view but classicists, or perhaps preservationists.

Continued..

[Van Canna]

Annesi

Traditionalism implies an inheritance. Ironically, even modernists have some sort of inheritance; no one has created his own style who has not drawn at least somewhat from existing styles. A modernist would just as soon ignore or at least find fault with his inheritance. A traditionalist recognizes and honors his inheritance and sometimes is limited by it. But the term "traditionalist" should not always imply that a practitioner cannot adapt or change.

The act of honoring one's inheritance means that one checks back on what one already has before venturing into the new.

Both Funakoshi (founder of Shotokan) and his teacher Itosu (leading instructor of Shorin after Matsumura) changed their arts, but they did not do this haphazardly, rather they employed a great deal of study and tried to improve their art within their tradition. In this respect, one might call even Bruce Lee a traditionalist.

[Van Canna]

Annesi

I contend that traditional martial arts produced tested blueprints from which we may expand, grow, and adjust. I am a traditionalist, for instance, because I find the traditional blueprint to have unexpected depth and detail. Movements that I have been repeating for two decades hold new things for me each year. This does not mean, however, that I shut off innovations from the outside.

[Van Canna]

Beautiful! I t'ssh for basically the same reason but if I mention that then it is just another can of worms I would have to be ready to deal with.

Not so, Henry. There are many ways of breathing, each serves a purpose as discussed at length in previous threads. As long as one can explain the reasons and mechanics behind the practice, no problem.

But the asinine statements no longer hold water with modern students such as

Tssting shows me, the sensei, that my students are breathing

Duh… People breathe in order to remain alive. So what kind of a statement is that?

More important, should be a question to the sensei: “what makes you think, he might stop breathing while doing Uechi kata - Why are you so worried he will stop breathing - that you need a tsst noise to reassure yourself he is breathing?”

People breathe to keep alive…however different types of breathing serve different purposes as discussed.

No disrespect to them but that doesn't mean anything to me.

A better approach would be to find out why they have changed their breathing mechanism, this is how we learn.

However, I don't think that the spear hand strikes should be done with that level of power, for me anyway, because it will break every joint in my hands if I made bodily contact.

Let’s look at the “traditional kata” – the spear hand is thrown at the rib cage…why?

Are we to believe that it was designed to “penetrate” the rib cage, as it is claimed?

How far do you think you would get with a spear hand at the ribs of modern man, fully clothed with heavy leather coats?

A spear hand is best thrown at “soft targets” like the throat, which is not as easy as one may think to damage by a tepid “pointy thingie”

Also, I don't think that the hand movements in our Sanchin kata should be done that way either because I consider the Sanchin more of a Qigong exercise than developing knockout strikes with full "body mechanic".

There are many ways to practice sanchin. Again work with Walter Mattson, and he will show you the different ways Takara sensei teaches the execution of the daily “Three sanchins” A real eye opener, as to what different mechanics are involved, from “meditative” to “explosive”

I know a lot of great Uechi "traditionalists" in the various Uechi organizations and they are not that way at all.

True, we know who they are also. But there is good and there is bad.

[hthom]

Thank you, Van.

As always, your wisdom and knowledge have my full respect.

Henry
www.selfdefense-lessons.com

[Van Canna]

Annesi

One of the most fascinating aspects in the martial arts is analysis. Any good traditional instructor worth his wardrobe of heavyweight gi will be able to break a kata or a technique down to minutia. Yet the very next class will have the same instructor telling students not to worry about details, to "just do it with feeling!"

That instructor is not totally crazy (although all martial artists may be in contention to some degree), rather he/she is doing a laudable job in both analysis and synthesis. Analysis is absolutely necessary for detail and synthesis is absolutely necessary to apply that detail.

Each of us practices an art and usually a style of that art.

I am suggesting that those who are now considered "traditionalists" be recategorized into three broad divisions, each which its own niceties: CLASSICAL, TRADITIONALISTIC, CONTEMPORARY.

A Classical Traditionalist is a student of an art with a very long Asian lineage (over one century at least) whose purpose is to study the art as living history and to preserve the art as a living historical document.

Students of ancient Japanese bujutsu like Katori Shinto Ryu fall into this category. Any desire to develop self-defense skills, physical health, or spiritual awareness is secondary at best for these practitioners.


A Traditionalistic Traditionalist (such a person might more clearly be termed a Value-oriented Traditionalist or even a Self-development Traditionalist), preserves the values of the arts which have formed the root of his/her style and in doing so maintains much of the practices and techniques which have been handed down from source styles. But his/her emphasis is on self-enhancement in physical, mental, and/or spiritual areas.

Traditionalistic Traditionalists, like non-traditionalists, may be interested in the artistic side of the martial arts, in self-defense, or in moving meditation, but they use tried and true methods to help them on this path.


A Contemporary Traditionalist (or perhaps an Applied Traditionalist) uses whatever skills and practices his/her art hands down to build a base for modern day competition or street self-defense.

To this student, the goal of physical proficiency is paramount, while stylistic preservation and intellectual or spiritual development is incidental. Sport or self-defense versions of Goju or Shotokan may serve as examples of this division. These are the subdivisions of the category known as "traditional martial arts" in the contemporary world.

[Van Canna]

Thank you, Van.

As always, your wisdom and knowledge have my full respect.

Henry
www.selfdefense-lessons.com

Always a pleasure Henry, the feeling is mutual.

The longer it goes the more I realize I would need a couple of lifetimes over to understand this stuff.

The path to discovery continues.

[Joe Graziano]

First, Happy Birthday to my good friend Henry! Tsst away!

I also am a "tsst" proponent.

Mr. Nakamatsu is my teacher Walter's senpai under Master Takara, and, like Master Takara and Walter, is a great teacher. He likes to speak of the two-fold "keiko" concept, that of not only having a model, but also of thinking about that which is observed from the model.

Walter, with as nearly perfect form as I've ever seen, is my model. He does and teaches the "Tsst" in sanchin as the arm withdraws and upon completion of the step.

Okay so I do it and teach it the same way. But am I just following my teacher blindly? As Walter says to his students (paraphrase), "I cannot teach you karate. But I can teach you how to practice." Hmm. Also a reference to self discovery.

In my "thinking about" the "tsst" as one example (of so, so much to think about), I see it as both "framing" (before putting your complete attention into the next part, and as conditioning (after all we should expect to get hit -real fighting is not antiseptic). Thus it makes complete sense to me to "tsst" and focus 100% at these times.

Does that mean I hold my breath at other times? Absolutely not. I believe in breathing naturally. For me that means allowing air to escape during the strike.

My students (and readers) also need to discover this on their own.

[Van Canna]

Hi Joe,

Good post.

Walter, with as nearly perfect form as I've ever seen, is my model. He does and teaches the "Tsst" in sanchin as the arm withdraws and upon completion of the step.

When working with Walter, he examined my explosive breathing method with the strike and said that the Okinawan masters would not object to it if I continued to keep the exhale short and at the very point of “Kime`” which is my way of this breathing method.

In my "thinking about" the "tsst" as one example (of so, so much to think about), I see it as both "framing" (before putting your complete attention into the next part, and as conditioning (after all we should expect to get hit -real fighting is not antiseptic). Thus it makes complete sense to me to "tsst" and focus 100% at these times.

Correct observation. I use the explosive Hiss at the kime point and then instantaneously again as the arm withdraws into sanchin or into a block or interception.

I also use continuous breathing in between movements to remain “pressurized” at all times.

There are many ways to breathe, each person uses what works best, and what has withstood the test of professional scrutiny under fire.

It is when a teacher “demands” that a student breathe only a certain way, such as forbidding to breathe or exhale with movement, but to only breathe in between movements, that I believe it is detrimental to his health.

Breathing is very individual, and some methods of breathing do not work for every one.

Over the years I have seen some terrible red faces on the floor because people under the stress of Dan testing could not get enough oxygen. Someday we will have some serious accident, especially if someone has a pre-existing, underlying condition he is not aware of, and suddenly manifests itself under breathing restrictions.

Once we as teachers, restrict someone’s breathing mechanism, such as telling them not to breathe with motion, whereas their lungs might just need to, we are placing the student, especially the older student with some underlying condition, at risk.

You are smart in releasing the pressure with the strike, Joe.

Remember this from previous threads?

Internal Breathing

Internal breathing is like a tea kettle that is building up steam. As the pressure in the kettle increases, there will be a slow release of pressure though a small hole in the spout.

There will always be near constant pressure within.

The lungs take on a similar function with internal breathing methods. There is a release of small bursts of air when delivering each strike.

At the same time there will be air pressure maintained within the lungs, much like the tea kettle.

The diaphragm and muscles in the body must tense properly to get the most benefit from internal breathing.

The best way to experience this is to exhale and form the mouth as to create a hiss.[here is the Tsst]

There should be muscle tension low in the diaphragm and abdomen. This obtains maximum compression of the oxygen in the lungs and controls the amount of air that leaves the body.

The diaphragm and muscles in the body must tense properly to get the most benefit from internal breathing.

There are other specialized internal breathing techniques that can produce phenomenal results.

World breaking champion Shawn Jewell is an advocate of breathing to develop internal energy. He emphasizes the importance of the diaphragm in the progression of motion that develops this awesome force.

Unlike most other breathing methods, this type of breathing requires precise timing within a sequence of events. As the nervous system fires muscles independently, these muscles contract in sequence to produce a wave of motion through the body.

The diaphragm must contract at the proper instant to continue this flow of motion. If there is a break in the sequence, a loss of energy will result.

These precision breathing methods are useful in many aspects of martial arts training, including grappling and joint manipulation techniques.


Proper breathing can improve balance and mobility as well.

Inhaling while in motion creates buoyancy for greater foot speed, while exhaling when settling your body weight into a strike aids in better force and fusion upon impact to a target.

Fusion is the moment when the joints of the body lock in position as to allow the entire weight of the body to be behind the strike.[your Kime` point]

[Bill Glasheen]

Thanks for speaking your minds, folks. Keep up the good work! Lots learned from these discussions.

And Happy Birthday, Henry!

- Bill