Kumite As A Self Defense Training Progression

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MikeK
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Post by MikeK »

Elements of this are supposed to be real. You're supposed to be paying attention to your partner, and responding to THEM rather than fighting the sequence.
Now that's where I have a mental block Bill. I can respond to a spontaneous attack somewhat OK but I lock up trying to respond within the sequence. I know I'm screwing up trying to respond to the person and trying to fight the darn sequence at the same time. So how much variance can there be and still have it be the kumite? :?
Wauke generally means you're on the outside of the punch, and if its close quarters that's hard to do, near impossible if there's any hook to the attack.
Ian, try using the last part of the wauke to L-5 against a larger hooking motion. It's basically the same as a chudan shuto uke and can deaden the arm fast. That and a palm heel with the other hand work nice together.
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Mills75
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Just curious

Post by Mills75 »

not sure how this applies to a set prearranged kumite or if it does at all. But we do have the carptail blocks and for a hook punch i wouldn't even bother on the inside and real close trying to do a full wauke. Instead I think as a novice in that close i'd be carptailing and just parrying or palming especially if your on the inside of a coming hook punch. we've talked alot about the full wauke block and it's useful uses so what about these other blocks we have that are useful also it's not like we only have the full wauke.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Ian wrote: Wauke generally means you're on the outside of the punch, and if its close quarters that's hard to do, near impossible if there's any hook to the attack.
I find it fascinating that you say this, Ian. Why? I find Rich (another of my students) feeling pretty much the same way.

Meanwhile... Over time I'm getting more and more comfortable using circle movements on the inside, and meeting someone on the inside.

George hit on my thinking above. At the end of the day, the only thing we can say about the wauke is that it's a "circle thingie." What you and Rich see is one fixed interpretation of what you can do with that circle, and I will readily admit that it is a "problem" with hoq Kyu and Dan Kumite are often practiced. But it isn't Kyu and Dan Kumite per se. IMO, it's the vanilla, Okinawan interpretation of Kanbun's 3-kata style as represented in the way you see various supplemental exercises done.

What's missing? Grappling and chi sao. Sit back some time and watch two good grapplers move. Squint your eyes. What you'll see is a series of pushes/pulls and circles. And that's what Sanchin is. The big difference is the grappler takes the Sanchin posture out of the box and uses it in very different orientations. Howerver (s)he still is concerned about control of center (of both self and oppoent).

We shouldn't translate wa*uke as circle block. A better translation is circular interception.

On the inside, the circle can be many different things. There's a beautiful, 8 x 10 inch, B&W photograph in Kanei Uechi's kyohon of someone entering a tori attacking with a stick. If you squint your eyes, you see the circle and rising elbow either of Seisan (generally done in front leaning stance) or Sanseiryu (generally done in horse stance). But the uke isn't doing a circle. Instead, what you see is arm feeling its way inside and past the donut-shaped danger zone around the tori. By the time the photo is snapped and the elbow is contacting the stick attacker, the "circling" arm is still up. You never really complete a full circle like one sees in Sanchin kata. You're only using a piece of it, or perhaps the concept of what the circle means. (intercepting or receiving) Using an attacking mindset, the circle is nothing more than feeling your way into the sweet zone of destructing inside the attacker's defenses.

Other interpretations of what this could mean work as well, such as Mike's comment about the chudan shuto uke inside the crotch of the elbow of a looping attack. You are after all leading with the shuto in a wauke, right? Works for me! 8)

And then you get to watching someone like Rory whose comfort zone is his old-world, brutal jiujitsu (Sosu$hitsu Ryu). Some things Rory does (such as Dracula's Cape) use the concept of the circle when entering. But a circle to him also means getting an arm around that neck when he gets inside, or some other intercepting movement that allows him to stick on and control the BG. And that works for him.

- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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CANDANeh
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Or...

Post by CANDANeh »

"We shouldn't translate wa*uke as circle block . A better translation is circular interception . '

I prefer " Energy seeker" as per J. Maloney
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

8)

That does capture a good bit of what people are missing in their thinking.

It's more than that in my view. I also see the circle sometimes attacking structure (posture). But Jimmy's idea is a fantastic concept to drive home.

- Bill
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Post by CANDANeh »

What you'll see is a series of pushes/pulls and circles. And that's what Sanchin is. The big difference is the grappler takes the Sanchin posture out of the box and uses it in very different orientations. Howerver (s)he still is concerned about control of center (of both self and oppoent).
True. I`m discovering slowly but surely that the wauke does aid and generate contol of center in myself.
Powerful and deceiving tool that "circle thingie"

PS. I prefer and always have attacking to inside. "Blocking" the punch no longer the issue once you get to the core. "Blocking" or thinking "blocking" with wauke limits the thinking
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MikeK
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These may be dumb but what the heck.

Post by MikeK »

Here's another use for the wauke right from the first move of the first kyu kumite, moving the person. The way I see it the first punch is to your center and you are using the wauke to move his arm and energy so you are now outside his attack. So you are moving him from your inside to your outside with lots of things to do as he goes past. Could just my way of looking at things but I see lot-o-lessons in the kyu when they get broken down. For me maybe more than when they are done in their entirety.

Another that I'm thinking about in the movement rather than blocking category is from the 5 moves in Kanshu right before and including the turn. The opponent is doubled over from the kick, the left wauke clears and controls his left arm so I can do the hammer strike, the right wauke then takes control of the left arm and opens him up for the left palm heel strike to the chin, the left wauke forearm hits the neck and the hand grabs the hair and pulls him back down for the the nukite under the rib. Grab the ribs and or skin and while still controlling the head and turn and remove our now hopefully disoriented opponent from our way. I don't know if it's the correct application but it's what I visualize and I see three uses of the wauke and not one is a block but clears, checks and controls.
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Greg
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Post by Greg »

Some quick thoughts in re the wa uke on my last couple of days of vacation (and please forgive me if I leave out things like “IMO” – safe to say this stuff’s all "MO" unless I attribute it to someone else). :)

The circle of the traditional wa uke is a flat plane in front of the defender – think about the “wall drill” that we’ve all undoubtedly done at some point. This flatness is important for structural purposes since it keeps one’s elbow more or less in sanchin. However, the direction of the plane can be changed to adapt to the needs of the moment. Examples of this include what I refer to as “hiki wa uke” or “oshi wa uke” – pulling and pushing wa uke respectively.

Again with apologies for the necessity of trying to use words to describe movement, an example of the hiki version could be my wa uke to the outside of the attacker’s arm finishing with my hand near my hip as in sanchin. This tends to pull the attacker off balance and can transition nicely to an arm bar. In this case, I’ve tilted the circle slightly from a flat plane parallel to my chest to one that starts closer to the attacker and ends closer to me, for simplicity’s sake let’s say a 45° angle. With the oshi version, I now move to the inside of the attacker’s punch – let’s say he’s throwing a haymaker – and turn the circle perpendicular to myself catching the attacker’s upper arm/bicep like MikeK discussed. This is a perfect example of how the sanchin structure trained by the flatness of the plane is important – if the angle between my forearm and upper arm is too small, my arm will tend to collapse and I’ll still get hit. If the angle is too wide, I may miss the attacker’s arm entirely.

Of course when one adds body movement into the equation things change again. Now my traditional (flat plane parallel to my chest) wa uke becomes a spiral when viewed from the side as I move forward or backward, and becomes even more complex if I add lateral movement. All of this will create an effect on the attacker's arm, balance and/or movement, and is yet another way to generate the hiki or oshi effects described above.

Greg
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Post by MikeK »

Nice. 8) Glad you brought up body movement Greg.
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Post by IJ »

Language problems, I think... when I say I don't see myself using a "wauke" on the inside I'm saying I don't see one the way they're generally used in kumite. This means a punch is seen, interpreted, and then you deflect it and reach for control somehow. And most of them, you're on the outside or move to the outside.

I don't see THAT process happening during an infight. There is not enough time for me to see a punch and do something formal and pretty on it if it only needs to move a foot or so to hit me.

Can I use a circle thingi on the way in? Can I use it while infighting, on the inside, in other ways? Surely, I love em. I just mean no one is going to watch a Uechi infighter work and think, "wow, s/he just did a nice block on that punch." Instead, we should be stifling punches, preempting them, and generally going crazy with our Uechi tools--sharp things, mean strikes, knees, elbows, nasty target, disrupting center and balance, etc.

I think we're probably all saying the same things.
--Ian
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Post by JimHawkins »

Bill Glasheen wrote: Meanwhile... Over time I'm getting more and more comfortable using circle movements on the inside, and meeting someone on the inside.
Wa-uke not for inside? :?

I think we agree on this one Bill.

Hmmm interesting. How about saying the wa-uke may be (and IMO should be) used to enter. Once all the way on the inside the attack should be fully developed and on IMO, though this can also mean different things.

The wa-uke IMO is the compressed, encoded representation of a myriad of methods for getting your 'foot in the door'. Very much like when you knock on someone's door and they open it and try to close it, well you need to make sure that door is open long enough to go through it; so you 'stick your foot in the door' and use this position to enter... IMHO the wa-uke is a main Uechi blueprint on getting your foot in their door.

The circle of both hands can be 'decoded' to facilitate Zone Filling™. In the case of the standard hook, the wa-uke – (the broad reference set), can take the shape of what I call an Inside Lop. This means that as the other person 'hooks' the wa-uke circles inside the hooking arm and fills the space made by their hooking movement – this is a very natural fit from both a positional and energy reference, which also offers very high leverage. It also can convert into a wrap or grab (wing hand variant) and should be delivered at the same time as the other hand hits.

So, as the inside to outside wa-uke circle completes the other hand should be hitting, which also means that just as the wa-uke completes and jerks them inwardly this hand should instantly reverse and hit right after the other hand finishes hitting, so the wa-uke hand, clears, energizes, going with their movement, stealing balance and magnifies the first hit with the other hand, while setting the next hit up with the wa-uke hand <A natural Uechi conversion here from wing hand might be a bushiken> – we call this whole process Fan Sao.

With the wa-uke 'decoded' it can become a diverse tool set that offers multidimensional possibilities IMHO....
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Post by Rick Wilson »

Great post Jim. :D
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