Masters

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:09 pm

Tony
Be positive

...if you had a knife, or a good handgun

things would have been different

..........Yeah Van.....I know ( force contimuum

)..thing is when you are old you try to look weak and inoffensive...like you are an old fool ..then when the kick off happens you can nail them coz they don't expect it.....what you should do is break the rules a little ( clash of head is a real good one

) .....hit him as hard as you can with the old noggin......then apologise say schitt like "accidents happen ...that kind of thing

..look at Tyson biting ears and all

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:38 pm

Jorv... nah... i'm not out to hurt anyone, just having some fun. I don't mind getting my clock cleaned... these fighters are really whipping me into shape!

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:10 am

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:54 am

jorvik wrote: imagine Ip Chun against a top Thai boxer.chicken Chow Mein The chinese have sone nice clever styles and stratagies but against the strength of youth I don't really think an old bloke would have much chance

Maybe, maybe not. Ip Chun is not a great example as his level is nowhere near where his father's was. Still you do have to cut the older Masters some slack... Not so of these very young self proclaimed 'masters' no slack need be given there..

While I have never seen Ip Man fight, nor any other of these near mythical figures I do know many have exhibited clear and advanced martial ability regularly – and this is part of the martial tradition of these arts – young muay thai butt kicker or not. When folks came to their schools if they talked crap or acted as though they doubted the ability of some of these great and very old Sifu they were often offered or given a 'demo' and I respect the willingness of these older Sifu to put it on the line... In fact this is how Wong Sheung Leung began training under Ip, he went to 'check him out' and got his butt whipped..

These older Sifu accepted these challenges because they could! They truly did have skills and were not afraid to 'be tested.' Try that these days on one of these cream puff 'masters' and I bet they block with their face...or run away crying for help...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:29 am

Heres a couple of "masters" going at it:

http://www.noholdsbarred.tv/cheung-boztepe.WMV

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:00 am

Hmmmm, very high level it is.

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:19 am

What was the point of posting that one again? (yawn)

To devalue WCK?

To devalue supposed 'masters'?

How does it address this topic?

What was your point?

These threads cover the range of issues of this non event...

This is a very "hot button" issue for some folks around here....

People should be aware and considerate.

I see this incident in a similar light to this kind scenario:

Young hotshot Boxer with entourage corners old time ex-boxing champ while doing a seminar.

Young hotshot Boxer with entourage tells old time ex-champ he wants to fight him and prove he is a better boxer.

Old time ex-champ says WTF I'm in the middle of a seminar.....

Young hotshot Boxer with entourage then tackles old time ex-champ.

Old-time ex-champ surprised, unready and wearing slippery shoes goes down to the ground.

Young hotshot Boxer with entourage throws ineffective punches from the ground.

Old time ex-champ arises a few minutes later uninjured and continues seminar.

Which conclusions might we make here?

1. Don't wear slippery shoes when doing seminars?

2. Bring own entourage in future?

3. When trash talking BS starts sick your entourage on them?

4. Boxers don't wrestle very well?

5. Young hotshot Boxer preferred his grappling skills over his standup game?

6. Challenges ain’t what they used to be?

7. Boxing is no good - a myth?

8. Neither fighter can box?

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/s ... hp?t=36607

And this interesting tidbit:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/s ... hp?t=38077

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:42 am

Hey Jim , it`s a classic , did the whole footage ever turn up or just the edit jobs Ive seen ?

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:54 am

Stryke wrote:Hey Jim , it`s a classic , did the whole footage ever turn up or just the edit jobs Ive seen ?

As far as I know the LT clan only released somewhat edited versions of the event..

There were a lot of folks there who periodically recount the event and IMO there wasn't much more to it than what was seen..

I would have liked to have seen a proper standup match (using WCK) between them but that wasn't to be.. It was much safer for Emin (who had some ground fighting experience) to get Cheung on the ground hit him a couple of times, let him up and then say, 'see, he is no (WCK) master.'

As I have said before I am not a big fan of either of them but this does not discount the possibility of either being skilled in whatever it is they lay claim to.

This event was very simply the 'most embarrassing moment' in recent WCK history though there have been others.

Leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:00 am

Absolutely Jim .

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:47 am

JimHawkins wrote: To devalue WCK?

To devalue supposed 'masters'?

No, I didn't realize they where wing chun. We've already seen the WC guys sparring so that was not my intent. My intent was to show that this tier of "Mastery" is Martial Arts is crapola. The WC guy who was sparring could beat the crap out of either of these two guys.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:55 am

I wish I had some footage of some Uechi masters slugging in out but unfortunatley they are all one with the universe, and only hit people during Sanchin checks.

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:15 am

The Bronze Dago wrote: The WC guy who was sparring could beat the crap out of either of these two guys.

Funny take, that would be a new can of worms on a WCK forum..

Actually, lineage-wise the guy who was sparring is from an off shoot of Emin's old LT clan, meaning Emin is likely one of his older seniors.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:20 am

To me mastery is as fictitious a concept as a style ....

It`s an engineered reality , a perceieved reality , it has nothing to do with reality or the truth , or the state of things ....

Anyone can and will get there ass kicked .... Truth

as soon as you define it you limit your ability .

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:33 am

Stryke wrote:To me mastery is as fictitious a concept as a style

Well I don't know if I agree with the style thing, I understand your position on this...still mulling it over..would love to discuss.

But master is really a title for CMA, it really means owner or possessor of the system.. So to me if the master is the true owner, or holder of the style (like a trade) and can do the style then the title is valid.

As an example, many feel that Ip Man was the last master of his line.. This because he had not appointed an inheritor of the system and for some very odd reason he did NOT pass the entire system on to ANY of his students. All these folks, who later became Masters in this case all held the maximum amount of knowledge after Ip died, but NOT all that Ip Man had. Ip chose NOT to pass the ENTIRE system, at least not to anyone who is known to have lived long enough to also pass the system.

I think this is a good example of how arts degenerate and finally fizzle out, that and an unwillingness to embrace the martial component of the systems and put it to work.