Shooting at Virginia Tech!

[Bill Glasheen]

A part of an interview of Matt Lauer from The Today Show.

This morning I spoke to one of Cho's creative writing professors, Lucinda Roy. She had been shown his writings in the fall of 2005 and she was so alarmed that she had him taken out of class and began to work with him individually. Then she was so disturbed by what she found that she brought it to the attention of school officials and law enforcement officials. Nobody could force him into counseling and the law enforcement officials said that there was nothing explicit enough or violent enough in his writings that they could do anything.

What strikes you first of all was how articulate and eloquent Roy was, and how frustrated she was by it. But also it strikes you that we’ve got to figure a way in this country to deal with situations like this. So often when tragedies happen, when someone goes off the deep end, you have people afterward saying there were warning signs. We’ve got to figure out a way in this country – without taking away someone’s rights – to be more aggressive and more proactive in terms of making sure that the system is aware of these situations and monitors them very closely.

- LAUER: 'THIS COMMUNITY WELCOMED US'

[Glenn]

News reports indicate he was refered to cousneling several times by his professors, but he refused. His parents brought him to a mental health facility in 2005, who worried he was suicidal. He was also accused of stalking women, who called police.

Gene

This is interesting, given that other news reports say he was on antidepressants (presumably prescribed after counseling) and that his only run-ins with the law were two recent speeding tickets.

[Bill Glasheen]

Cho posed 'imminent danger'

BY BILL MCKELWAY
TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER Apr 18, 2007


The Times-Dispatch has obtained court records that Cho Seung-Hui posed "an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness" in December 2005 but was released to receive outpatient treatment.

A Montgomery County magistrate issued a temporary detention order Dec. 13, 2005.Cho was "mentally ill and in need of hospitalization and present an imminent danger to self or others as a result of mental illness, or is so seriously mentally ill as to be substantially unable to care for self and is incapable of volunteering or unwilling to volunteer for treatment," the order states.

Cho, who was listed as 5-foot-8 and 150 pounds, was brought in by Virginia Tech authorities and was examined the next day by a licensed clinical psychologist.

The doctor, who works for a private practice in Blacksburg, reported that Cho's "affect is flat and is depressed," but "he denies suicidal ideations. He does not acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder. His insight and judgment are normal."

****

- RTD

[Glenn]

Heard on the radio this evening that the recommendations for counseling, suicidal concerns, and stalking allegations were not part of any record that showed up on the background checks, if they had been he shouldn't have been able to purchase the guns. The only things that showed up were two recent speeding tickets, which naturally do not block sales.

[AAAhmed46]

I hope the media doesn't demonize Schizo's too much.

The vast majority are not really all too violent.

But still, the tell tale signs were there, but no one caught on.

[Bill Glasheen]

I don't see schizophrenia here, Adam.

I'm not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but I do work with disease classification systems (for analyzing health care data). There are more psychological illnesses than just depression and schizoprhenia.

You may find reading some of Goleman's books to be helpful and informative. What I see with Cho is a few personality "blind spots." There are people walking amongst us who are totally lacking in empathy. It very well may be an anatomical issue in the brain. Somehow the links between the emotional and the cognitive parts of the brain just aren't wired the same way that you see in the normative population.

Show such a person a series of faces with different expressions, and they have problems identifying the emotions that the people are feeling. You and I have instantaneous, lower-brain responses to these facial expressions. These individuals just don't get it at a visceral level.

The tragic thing about Cho's narcissistic, suicidal actions is that he didn't get himself in the right place at the right time to have excellent physicians figuratvely pick his brain. He didn't want help, and nobody pulled the chord to force extended confinement and treatment. Doing so might have helped identify the cognitive blind spots that produced these bizarre and tragic series of events.

There are such people in maximum security prisons. Some of them can be helped today with extensive therapy where victims "sledgehammer" them with their responses to the evil actions. Synaptic patterns can be established, and empathy can be developed.

But for some - today - it's hopeless. These people can't function in normal society without them either harming others or ultimately self destructing. Life will never make sense to them.

- bill

[Gene DeMambro]

To the extent that you know, Bill, what are the laws/policies for involuntary commitment in Virginia, as each state is different?

I've already heard at least one psychologist, based on the NBC video, say he was a psychopath (to say the least) and suffered from paranoid delusions and schizophrenia. Maybe his medical records will be released someday.

Gene

[Glenn]

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/20070418_ ... APHIC.html
Information on the victims (each picture is a link to a page about the person, and many of these pages also include links the victim's personal website and/or other news articles from their hometowns about them).

Related to discussions on this forum: One of the students was a member of a V-Tech Tae Kwon Do club and another one had graduated from a military school prior to going to V-Tech, and one of the faculty members had served in the military prior to college. Several of the students were current/recent sports players as well. And that does not include the wounded. I think the ability to overpower the shooter was there, but for most the opportunity was not, or if it was they were unable to capitalize on it due to shock, fear, indecision, etc. From the stories it appears the shooter was determined and well-prepared, and didn't leave much opportunity to stop him. Not all situations are survivable.

[dejsis]

I find it interesting that the only person that did act was a 75 year old. A survivor of the Holocaust and communism. It's no conicidence.

[MikeK]

Several students acted even after seeing a teacher and fellow students gunned down.

[Glenn]

An RA in the residence hall was apparently killed coming to the aid of the girl killed there. And one student already wounded is thought to have purposefully distracted the shooter to keep him from shooting someone who was playing dead, but at the cost of his life. There are likely other similar stories. Many did something, there were heroic acts. But none were able to take out the shooter, and as of yet I have not heard that anyone even tried.

[MikeK]

Maybe there's something about a gun that freezes many people in place. Is it the sound, the distance, or that maybe it's possible for the shooter to miss?

Summary: On December 7, 1993 Colin Ferguson boarded a Long Island commuter train and began shooting the passengers with a Ruger P-89 9mm pistol. The incident known as the Long Island Railroad Massacre resulted in six people being killed and 19 injured.

Crime Events: According to trial testimony, Ferguson suffered from extreme paranoia involving many races but it was mostly centered around the feeling that white people were out to get him. At some point his paranoia pushed him into devising a plan of revenge. In order to avoid embarrassing New York City mayor David Dinkins, Ferguson selected a commuter train headed to Nassau County. Once the train entered Nassau, Ferguson began shooting, selecting specific white people to gun down and sparing others. The reasons for his selection of who to shoot and who not was never made clear.

As he stopped to reload his gun for the third time he was overpowered by three passengers and held down until the police arrived.

[Glenn]

Not exactly fast reactions or decision-making if they waited until the 3rd time he reloaded. And at V-Tech he had the back-up weapon to cover when he reloaded.

[MikeK]

My original thought was how hard it would be to to reload with two guns in your hands? I tried it and while not great it is possible. Did he have both guns in his hands?

[Bill Glasheen]

To the extent that you know, Bill, what are the laws/policies for involuntary commitment in Virginia, as each state is different?

My layman's knowledge is that a person must present a danger to themselves or to others.

There are protections. For example, you cannot be removed from a University for mental health reasons. Cho was protected - probably as he should have been.

Basically physical or mental illnesses are protected. What matters at the end of the day are your actions, and how those actions affect your ability to live within the bounds of the law, your ability to do your job, or your ability to live unassisted.

I've already heard at least one psychologist, based on the NBC video, say he was a psychopath (to say the least) and suffered from paranoid delusions and schizophrenia. Maybe his medical records will be released someday.

Hmm...

First of all, "psychopath" is an antiquated expression. Sociopath is the proper expression. And yes, he was a sociopath.

Paranoid delusions? Probably at times. But that's a symptom and not an underlying illness.

Schizophrenia? This is debatable. Yes, he had an "imaginary girlfriend" from another planet who called him Spanky. He had an alter ego (also an alien) called question mark. But he was well aware of what was real and what wasn't. To some extent, he played with people.

I'm willing to bet he was not suffering from schizophrenia. That's a fairly disabling illness. Even when medicated, the vast majority of people are never the same.

IMO, his underlying affliction was more subtle. It led to complications such as depression, and perhaps some occasional psychotic episodes.

The problem with all of this is the following:

1) The mental health community is still mulling over mental health disease classification.

2) We all don't understand the brain, intelligence, and social skills as well as we should.

3) Diagnosis and treatment is an inexact science at best. We're still in the stone age on this one.

IMO, it's a call to action for the mental health research community.

- Bill