Research reference : syllabus of Uechi Kambun's school
Moderator: Available
Maybe, but maybe not. We know Kanbun taught the big three, but we have more techniques in our modern agreed-upon set than can be found (in obvious form) therein. So that naturally leads us into the 4th kata discussion. Blame me for being the enabler this time, but what I had in mind was HOW did Kanbun teach these "other" techniques, if indeed he did teach them? In the present day we have the bridge kata and hojo undo to point to, but we know the bridge kata don't trace back to Kanbun and I assume the hojo undo is a Kanei-era thing as well. So, anyway, this is why I asked the question, because I thought that was relevant to the thread. This is interwoven with the 4th kata thing but not actually dependent on it, since we know that Kanbun elected not to teach the 4th kata anyway. So if he taught techniques from it, just HOW did he incorporate them into his curriculum?Stryke wrote: says a lot ....
Mike
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Stryke
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maxwell ainley
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- Location: england
Kanbuns syllabus ,every thing was directed or heading towards jiu-kobo ,as per the info related by Toyama sensei ,and under these different points of view I am inclined to go with his view ,seeing as he spent the most time with Kanbun ,as a young man ,of the seniors left alive ,apart from the master in the old folk home in japan .
The syllabus material to a three kata study is economical to say the least ,in my own view of over thirty years study of the three ,it as a different feel and needs a different approach to deal with [the three] as one matures in modern uechi it can make more sense to subtract back to the three .
Yet to deal with the three from the word go on the part of the practioner ,requires a earlier maturity ,a quicker feel for the three ,a coming to terms with the three.
The syllabus material to a three kata study is economical to say the least ,in my own view of over thirty years study of the three ,it as a different feel and needs a different approach to deal with [the three] as one matures in modern uechi it can make more sense to subtract back to the three .
Yet to deal with the three from the word go on the part of the practioner ,requires a earlier maturity ,a quicker feel for the three ,a coming to terms with the three.
max ainley
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Rick
Always great having you on board.
The definitions thing gets to be a slippery slope. If some on Okinawa had their way, they might go back to The Big Three. They would throw away the five bridge kata, yakusoku kumite, and sport sparring. Back to basics.
That's not Uechi, you know...
You are experimenting up there in the Great White North.
Kenyukai has tossed Kyu and Dan, and have a Shinjo brand yakusoku kumite.
Shohei Ryu has tossed Kyu and Dan, and have their own yakusoku kumite called... Yakusoku kumite.
Some in the Shohei circles have added a basic Okinawan kata to their curriculum.
I used to require Gekisai dai ni plus bunkai in my UVa beginner's class.
I have required, dropped, and then reinstituted my own kicking choreography for my students.
Some (such as your truly) require ukemi to be done at every test. Others have suggested that this isn't Uechi, or that the insurance people might revoke my policy or something.
I can remember in the 1980s how I often had to defend my recommendation that people do weight training. To "prove I was wrong", some would ask the Okinawan Masters at camp (Thompson Island) about weight lifting. Most would say it was bad, and don't do it.
They once told Nolan Ryan not to weight train. He ignored "the experts."
After a while, it all gets to look pretty silly.
Kanbun learned some stuff. Uechi Kanei's kyohon and Toyama Sensei spoke of the existence of a Suparinpei kata.
If someone choreographed a great form, called it Fred, and told me it was a Uechi requirement in my association, I'd probably do it. And I'd try to do it better than those who required it - before the way people expected "it" to be done was etched in the collective minds.
In my view, any good Fuzhou choreography that investigates the principles of movement Kanbun brought back is part of Kanbun's style. It is my opinion - and it could easily be defended - that the martial experience Kanbun went through was but a snapshot in time. If we freeze that snapshot and say this is "it", then I truly believe WE have totally missed the point.
Ask a jazz musician what I'm talking about.
All my not-so-humble opinon of course, to be ripped to your heart's delight.
My best to you and yours, Rick.
- Bill
Always great having you on board.
The definitions thing gets to be a slippery slope. If some on Okinawa had their way, they might go back to The Big Three. They would throw away the five bridge kata, yakusoku kumite, and sport sparring. Back to basics.
That's not Uechi, you know...
You are experimenting up there in the Great White North.
Kenyukai has tossed Kyu and Dan, and have a Shinjo brand yakusoku kumite.
Shohei Ryu has tossed Kyu and Dan, and have their own yakusoku kumite called... Yakusoku kumite.
Some in the Shohei circles have added a basic Okinawan kata to their curriculum.
I used to require Gekisai dai ni plus bunkai in my UVa beginner's class.
I have required, dropped, and then reinstituted my own kicking choreography for my students.
Some (such as your truly) require ukemi to be done at every test. Others have suggested that this isn't Uechi, or that the insurance people might revoke my policy or something.
I can remember in the 1980s how I often had to defend my recommendation that people do weight training. To "prove I was wrong", some would ask the Okinawan Masters at camp (Thompson Island) about weight lifting. Most would say it was bad, and don't do it.
They once told Nolan Ryan not to weight train. He ignored "the experts."
After a while, it all gets to look pretty silly.
Kanbun learned some stuff. Uechi Kanei's kyohon and Toyama Sensei spoke of the existence of a Suparinpei kata.
If someone choreographed a great form, called it Fred, and told me it was a Uechi requirement in my association, I'd probably do it. And I'd try to do it better than those who required it - before the way people expected "it" to be done was etched in the collective minds.
In my view, any good Fuzhou choreography that investigates the principles of movement Kanbun brought back is part of Kanbun's style. It is my opinion - and it could easily be defended - that the martial experience Kanbun went through was but a snapshot in time. If we freeze that snapshot and say this is "it", then I truly believe WE have totally missed the point.
Ask a jazz musician what I'm talking about.
All my not-so-humble opinon of course, to be ripped to your heart's delight.
My best to you and yours, Rick.
- Bill
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Stryke
Thats fine and dandy Bill
However is it ethical to imply said kata is the fourth ?
even if later you imply often , that well its just maybe and probably .
the only way to substantiate such a claim is to share the facts .
share the footage of the kata , share the footage of the original group in china doing said kata , share the interveiws with said people , Interveiw Toyama Sensei , disect lineages , and do a carefull cross comparison of there systems katas , and of other regional katas etc .
It` s a huge undertaking And I hope eventually some of said material wll come to light .
But at the moment I dont see any of these steps happening , more a nudge and a wink and a whispered look at my secret kata , and before you know it it`s spread across North America (and perhaps the world) as something it may not be .
lets not focus on the form , lets focus on the evidence .
If you have it please share it .
However is it ethical to imply said kata is the fourth ?
even if later you imply often , that well its just maybe and probably .
the only way to substantiate such a claim is to share the facts .
share the footage of the kata , share the footage of the original group in china doing said kata , share the interveiws with said people , Interveiw Toyama Sensei , disect lineages , and do a carefull cross comparison of there systems katas , and of other regional katas etc .
It` s a huge undertaking And I hope eventually some of said material wll come to light .
But at the moment I dont see any of these steps happening , more a nudge and a wink and a whispered look at my secret kata , and before you know it it`s spread across North America (and perhaps the world) as something it may not be .
lets not focus on the form , lets focus on the evidence .
If you have it please share it .
Just so it's clear, appears that you can BUY a look at it hereStryke wrote: my secret kata
http://karateworld.safeshopper.com/14/36.htm?236
Mike
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Bill Glasheen
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- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Oh for crying out loud, Marcus. If you can't afford to buy the DVD from George, let me know. I'll order it myself and have him ship it to you.
Sheesh...
Business is business. I don't make a dime on it, but I let George sell several videos with me on it because that pays the rent here. And it is my way of contributing to the cause. It does after all require some bucks to keep this Internet site up.
Even academics who do peer-reviewed research don't get things for free. They may get it at a reduced price. I know. Been there, done that. But never for free. That's why it's so important to know how to publish and write grants. It's what keeps the academics hungry, and keeps them producing.
There are no reasonable barriers for you to get a gander at the form. If George wants to make an mpeg of it and put it online, that's fine. It'll happen soon enough anyway. You probably wouldn't be able to learn the whole thing from a video anyway. I tried... George sent me a tape of Simon and asked me to learn it. But there are a lot of subtle details that require one-on-one. I needed several camp sessions with Simon to get the details down.
I've had lengthy discussions about it, Marcus.
George is the marketing guy. He did the intro to the tape.
Is it "the fourth kata?" I honestly don't know. I only know that it's the only available candidate today - if such a form ever existed.
I also know that whatever that form is - if it ever existed - that it would have changed quite a bit between the time Kanbun was there and the time Simon found what he found.
That's the nature of Fuzhou martial arts, IMO. It's like seeing rock and roll in the 1950s in the US. Then you leave. Then you come back to find this rock and roll all over again. Will you find it? Yea. Will it be exactly like what you saw in the 1950s? Well...
There will never be another Elvis, if that's what you're looking for.
- Bill
Sheesh...
Business is business. I don't make a dime on it, but I let George sell several videos with me on it because that pays the rent here. And it is my way of contributing to the cause. It does after all require some bucks to keep this Internet site up.
Even academics who do peer-reviewed research don't get things for free. They may get it at a reduced price. I know. Been there, done that. But never for free. That's why it's so important to know how to publish and write grants. It's what keeps the academics hungry, and keeps them producing.
There are no reasonable barriers for you to get a gander at the form. If George wants to make an mpeg of it and put it online, that's fine. It'll happen soon enough anyway. You probably wouldn't be able to learn the whole thing from a video anyway. I tried... George sent me a tape of Simon and asked me to learn it. But there are a lot of subtle details that require one-on-one. I needed several camp sessions with Simon to get the details down.
Stryke wrote:
However is it ethical to imply said kata is the fourth ?
even if later you imply often , that well its just maybe and probably
I've had lengthy discussions about it, Marcus.
George is the marketing guy. He did the intro to the tape.
Is it "the fourth kata?" I honestly don't know. I only know that it's the only available candidate today - if such a form ever existed.
I also know that whatever that form is - if it ever existed - that it would have changed quite a bit between the time Kanbun was there and the time Simon found what he found.
That's the nature of Fuzhou martial arts, IMO. It's like seeing rock and roll in the 1950s in the US. Then you leave. Then you come back to find this rock and roll all over again. Will you find it? Yea. Will it be exactly like what you saw in the 1950s? Well...
There will never be another Elvis, if that's what you're looking for.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
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Stryke
Guess you missed that Bill , it`s the evidence I`m interested in , surely you can provide some history and facts behind the discovery ?lets not focus on the form , lets focus on the evidence .
If the dvd contains all this I`ll gladly buy it , until then it`s just you doing some from you dont really know from china . I hope it does , Ive never been told that before .share the footage of the original group in china doing said kata , share the interveiws with said people , Interveiw Toyama Sensei , disect lineages , and do a carefull cross comparison of there systems katas , and of other regional katas etc .
heck in the end rally , I dont want to see you do it (I`m sure it`d be interesting) , I want to see the original stylists do it , it would take me about five minutes to make any kata to look like anything .....
and I have no interest in learning it at this time , it`s strictly academic .
why would I purchase second hand hearsay , If Mr Lailey was selling his research then fine , he`d no doubt coroborate his findings with all his research and findings (I would hope) .
I hope you guys are giving Mr Lailey a fair cut of your profits . And he didnt charge you too much , but Thats between you and is strictly Buisness .
So dont make this about me being Cheap , all I hope for is answers , Sorry Bill , you doing the kata in four directions on a tape isnt going to answer any of my questions , As entertaining and informative as i`m sure it would be .
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Gene DeMambro
- Posts: 1684
- Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
http://karateworld.safeshopper.com/10/14.htm?722even if later you imply often , that well its just maybe and probably .
the only way to substantiate such a claim is to share the facts .
share the footage of the kata , share the footage of the original group in china doing said kata , share the interveiws with said people , Interveiw Toyama Sensei , disect lineages , and do a carefull cross comparison of there systems katas , and of other regional katas etc .
It` s a huge undertaking And I hope eventually some of said material wll come to light .
But at the moment I dont see any of these steps happening , more a nudge and a wink and a whispered look at my secret kata , and before you know it it`s spread across North America (and perhaps the world) as something it may not be .
lets not focus on the form , lets focus on the evidence .
If you have it please share it .
From the link:
Has much of what you need, Marcus.Lailey's Superempi
Product Details Stock #: VidMag 06
This is the film that began the search for the elusive Uechi-ryu fourth kata! Many demonstrations of kata, including Superempi. Lengthy interview with Simon focusing on his discovery of this kata and the master who claims to have links with Shushiwa and Kanbun Uechi. 2 hours.
Gene
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Stryke
Much closer , thanks Gene , is there any footage of the original practitioners doing the form ?(does any exist ?) , has anyone seen it ? , does it give references and the location/lineages of said descendants ?This is the film that began the search for the elusive Uechi-ryu fourth kata! Many demonstrations of kata, including Superempi. Lengthy interview with Simon focusing on his discovery of this kata and the master who claims to have links with Shushiwa and Kanbun Uechi. 2 hours.
anyone who has it could they give me a quick reveiw of whats in it (no need to tell me )
I guess what I`m asking to put it blunty, is it just a disucssion of what he saw and how he does the kata ? , or is there other footage and information regarding veryfying the Links to Uechi ?
Much appreciated .
To Be honest the said form doesnt much interest me , My focus at the moment is much more on what folks can hopefully agree on , though i`m guessing this from will need some contemplation at some point . And by then more information may be available and forthcoming .
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M J Brelsford
- Posts: 105
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:07 pm
- Location: Providence, RI
- Contact:
From the likes of me…
I am sure your gonna hide/delete this but here goes anyway…
Bill it appears in the battle of Uechi info, your out of ammo.Were do you get all this BS info??? Who do you listen to??
First only a select few of you have the secret 4th kata, now you know what group is doing what.
Who sends you this info?? Or do you just make it up like kata??
Dude, ya gotta get your facts straight before you send out your line. Your gossip is the kind of stuff that makes folks not want to get along… check you facts…sad.
Mark
PS (Glad I didn’t hold my breath for that tape, I’d be died by now. But I guess that’s how good your word is.)
I am sure your gonna hide/delete this but here goes anyway…
Bill it appears in the battle of Uechi info, your out of ammo.Were do you get all this BS info??? Who do you listen to??
First only a select few of you have the secret 4th kata, now you know what group is doing what.
Who sends you this info?? Or do you just make it up like kata??
Dude, ya gotta get your facts straight before you send out your line. Your gossip is the kind of stuff that makes folks not want to get along… check you facts…sad.
Mark
PS (Glad I didn’t hold my breath for that tape, I’d be died by now. But I guess that’s how good your word is.)
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Mark
You're losing your gunny sarge edge, guy. Is that all you got?
You do make a few good points though.
So I take it you still haven't seen the form, right? PM me, and we'll get this covered. For Christ's sake... We've been going back and forth for decades now, and we haven't even met each other.
To All
The kata I do is not "secret." That word always bothered me in martial arts. Versions done by either Simon or yours truly have been available on this Website for a long time. Anyone who comes to camp can spend as much time as they need with me to learn it. At this point I've worked with quite a few. I've never turned anybody down due to style or rank.
I will however caution that it isn't a beginner form. It takes about 3 minutes to do if you are doing it at the right speed - the upper time limit by the way for many tournaments with time limits on kata performance. It also requires a certain degree of athleticism. While a lot of people walk through it, few "get" the flow and the elasticity (sequential summation of movment) needed to do the form well.
I pay full price every year to go to George's camp, and yet I spend virtually all my time teaching. I travel quite a bit to teach, and never charge a fee other than the ticket needed to get where you are.
What I know is the form. I've practiced a number of different martial arts by this point in my life, so am capable of doing a little bit of comparative choreography analysis. It's sort of equivalent to studying predictive models in my line of work. After a while, people start repeating themselves. You don't need to meet the writers of code to figure out what they are doing and why.
I do not know the people Simon studied from. For that additional information, it would be best to go straight to Simon. I don't speak Mandarin, and more importantly I don't speak the Fuzhou dialect. Yes, there is a dialect spoken in the region where Kanbun trained. It is also spoken by the owners and workers in a local restaurant I go to. Not knowing the language can be a problem. I can work my way through Japanese names and terminology pretty easily because I had some formal training in the language. But I do have a tough time with the Chinese.
Simon has lived there for extended periods as a house guest. George has some contacts in China who know of Simon, and have commented on him having been there.
There is a lot of good historical work that needs to be done to check the lineage of this piece of choreography. The fact that people can feel qualified to shoot it down from their amateur historian podiums speaks to that. I can't do that work because I don't have the expertise. But Simon would be a great start.
I missed the last trip to China (last fall) because I was in the middle of a job transition and have 2 kids in school. It's difficult taking a month off to go over there and meet people. There may be other trips. George and the IUKF gang have been doing a lot of good work recently establishing ties over there, and getting package travel deals. And when/if I do go, I know enough to bring one of my Fuzhou friends over there with me. It's tough enough getting the facts straight here if you speak Mandarin perfectly. To do it right, we need an extraordinary language talent like Marty Dow or a native who speaks English well and knows someone in the group.
My 2 cents.
- Bill
You're losing your gunny sarge edge, guy. Is that all you got?
You do make a few good points though.
So I take it you still haven't seen the form, right? PM me, and we'll get this covered. For Christ's sake... We've been going back and forth for decades now, and we haven't even met each other.
To All
The kata I do is not "secret." That word always bothered me in martial arts. Versions done by either Simon or yours truly have been available on this Website for a long time. Anyone who comes to camp can spend as much time as they need with me to learn it. At this point I've worked with quite a few. I've never turned anybody down due to style or rank.
I will however caution that it isn't a beginner form. It takes about 3 minutes to do if you are doing it at the right speed - the upper time limit by the way for many tournaments with time limits on kata performance. It also requires a certain degree of athleticism. While a lot of people walk through it, few "get" the flow and the elasticity (sequential summation of movment) needed to do the form well.
I pay full price every year to go to George's camp, and yet I spend virtually all my time teaching. I travel quite a bit to teach, and never charge a fee other than the ticket needed to get where you are.
What I know is the form. I've practiced a number of different martial arts by this point in my life, so am capable of doing a little bit of comparative choreography analysis. It's sort of equivalent to studying predictive models in my line of work. After a while, people start repeating themselves. You don't need to meet the writers of code to figure out what they are doing and why.
I do not know the people Simon studied from. For that additional information, it would be best to go straight to Simon. I don't speak Mandarin, and more importantly I don't speak the Fuzhou dialect. Yes, there is a dialect spoken in the region where Kanbun trained. It is also spoken by the owners and workers in a local restaurant I go to. Not knowing the language can be a problem. I can work my way through Japanese names and terminology pretty easily because I had some formal training in the language. But I do have a tough time with the Chinese.
Simon has lived there for extended periods as a house guest. George has some contacts in China who know of Simon, and have commented on him having been there.
There is a lot of good historical work that needs to be done to check the lineage of this piece of choreography. The fact that people can feel qualified to shoot it down from their amateur historian podiums speaks to that. I can't do that work because I don't have the expertise. But Simon would be a great start.
I missed the last trip to China (last fall) because I was in the middle of a job transition and have 2 kids in school. It's difficult taking a month off to go over there and meet people. There may be other trips. George and the IUKF gang have been doing a lot of good work recently establishing ties over there, and getting package travel deals. And when/if I do go, I know enough to bring one of my Fuzhou friends over there with me. It's tough enough getting the facts straight here if you speak Mandarin perfectly. To do it right, we need an extraordinary language talent like Marty Dow or a native who speaks English well and knows someone in the group.
My 2 cents.
- Bill
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Stryke
wasnt shooting down anything Bill , just trying to establish if any of this had been done .....There is a lot of good historical work that needs to be done to check the lineage of this piece of choreography.
If your seriously suggesting folks cant ask questions beacuase there not proffessional historians ... well
So I take it this stuff isnt on Simons dvd ?
, your doing a good job of confusing me .....Guess the best thing is to forget about it alltogether , at least until something comes to light .
