(it) would have looked like the officers were [tasing] Meyer into submission," the report said.
Debate grows over use of Tasers by police
Moderator: Available
Or tends to result in more serious medical conditions. Nothing wrong with opting for the less violent alternative. Unless of course this kid (and others) are more likely to resist if they think they will only be tased and not injured.TSDguy wrote:The other thing you could read about what he said was beating him looks worse to the crowd than tasing him.
Glenn
"Police and security officials are being trained that it's OK to beat, torture and taser anyone should they not answer their questions or comply with their every order."
I've been less available than usual over the last month. This is going to be a really quick run down of Use of Force policy and concepts to explain why using a Taser IS legally justified in this situation.
On the one hand, you have the level of resistance of the threat. These are defined as:
Compliant (no resistance)
Verbal (mouthing off but doing what he has been told to do)
Static (Not doing what he is supposed to do, but not fighting)
Active (using power to not comply- running away, pulling away, hanging on to door jambs)
Ominous (fighting- trying to hurt the officer or a third party)
Lethal (trying to kill an officer or a third party)
The officers force contiuum goes as follows:
Presence- the officer has a reasonable expectation that if he shows up, people will quit doing bad things.
Verbal- Ranges from persuasion and talking to screaming and intimidation. If the officer hurts your feelings it may prevent him from hurting your body.
Touch- This is only the pat on the shoulder , hand on the arm to walk someone or pushing a bit so that the drunk goes in the right direction.
Pain Compliance- this is the level that can hurt quite a lot but has a very low risk of injury- joint locks, most take downs, pressure points AND Taser. The thing is that despite the pain, Tasers cause 2 pin pricks one quarter of an inch deep and nothing else.
Serious physical control (euphimism alert. Solid risk of injury, but unlikely to kill)
Deadly Force- force designed and expected to cause death or serious physical injury.
Compliant and verbal resistance authorizes up to touch. In essence, no matter how rude they are being, they are doing what you want.
Static resistance, however (coupled with verbal is common but irrelevant) they are NOT doing what you want. Even if they say they are complying. Even if they feel they have a right to do or not do any damn thing they want. Static resistance authorizes up to pain compliance. What this means is that IF an officer gives you a lawful order and you don't comply the officer is absolutely, by statute, policy and common sense trained AND EXPECTED to use force to make it happen. They will use the safest level of force that will get the job done. Safe being defined as least risk of injury, that tool currently is the Taser. It hurts, it hurts unbelievably... but there are no side effects, no injuries, less chance of falling and hurting yourself than a joint take down.
Active resistance usually authorizes only pain compliance except in special circumstances (the difference between pulling away to run and pulling away to fight or access a weapon can be very subtle) where it authorizes Seriou Physical Control.
An ominous threat authorizes at least SPC.
A lethal threat authorizes deadly force.
So legally and in compliance with policy, the quote is correct, partially, that officers are taught that Tasers are okay to enforce lawful commands. The rest is hyperbole and bullshit.
Someone mentioned the after-taser daze. Doesn't exist. As soon as the taser stops cycling, you are completely fine. that feeling can be so unexpected that it spikes your OODA loop, but you are fine, and can fight again.
Most people don't want to. That is why it is a pain compliance tool. You will get the pain again if you choose not to comply. Choosing not to comply a second time can be a sign of altered mental state, unbelievable self-righteousness or incredible stupidity.
Hmmm.... that sounded harsh, but looking at all these cases:
"I'm going to go mess with someone I don't like."
"The person in charge told me to leave but I don't want to."
"The poopy head called the cops. Fascist!"
"The cops are asking me to leave but I don't want to."
"They're telling me to leave, but I can do anything I want. My desire to make other people squirm is way more important than their right to run their meeting."
"The cops touched me! I'm gonna scream and sue!"
"Ow ow ow ow ow"
"Fascists"
None of these situations were created by the cops. At any time the person could have followed the law and no force would have been used... but the sense of entitlement, that I can do anything I want, no matter who it steps on and anyone who disagrees or tries to stop me is mean and evil...
It just makes me tired.
Rory
I've been less available than usual over the last month. This is going to be a really quick run down of Use of Force policy and concepts to explain why using a Taser IS legally justified in this situation.
On the one hand, you have the level of resistance of the threat. These are defined as:
Compliant (no resistance)
Verbal (mouthing off but doing what he has been told to do)
Static (Not doing what he is supposed to do, but not fighting)
Active (using power to not comply- running away, pulling away, hanging on to door jambs)
Ominous (fighting- trying to hurt the officer or a third party)
Lethal (trying to kill an officer or a third party)
The officers force contiuum goes as follows:
Presence- the officer has a reasonable expectation that if he shows up, people will quit doing bad things.
Verbal- Ranges from persuasion and talking to screaming and intimidation. If the officer hurts your feelings it may prevent him from hurting your body.
Touch- This is only the pat on the shoulder , hand on the arm to walk someone or pushing a bit so that the drunk goes in the right direction.
Pain Compliance- this is the level that can hurt quite a lot but has a very low risk of injury- joint locks, most take downs, pressure points AND Taser. The thing is that despite the pain, Tasers cause 2 pin pricks one quarter of an inch deep and nothing else.
Serious physical control (euphimism alert. Solid risk of injury, but unlikely to kill)
Deadly Force- force designed and expected to cause death or serious physical injury.
Compliant and verbal resistance authorizes up to touch. In essence, no matter how rude they are being, they are doing what you want.
Static resistance, however (coupled with verbal is common but irrelevant) they are NOT doing what you want. Even if they say they are complying. Even if they feel they have a right to do or not do any damn thing they want. Static resistance authorizes up to pain compliance. What this means is that IF an officer gives you a lawful order and you don't comply the officer is absolutely, by statute, policy and common sense trained AND EXPECTED to use force to make it happen. They will use the safest level of force that will get the job done. Safe being defined as least risk of injury, that tool currently is the Taser. It hurts, it hurts unbelievably... but there are no side effects, no injuries, less chance of falling and hurting yourself than a joint take down.
Active resistance usually authorizes only pain compliance except in special circumstances (the difference between pulling away to run and pulling away to fight or access a weapon can be very subtle) where it authorizes Seriou Physical Control.
An ominous threat authorizes at least SPC.
A lethal threat authorizes deadly force.
So legally and in compliance with policy, the quote is correct, partially, that officers are taught that Tasers are okay to enforce lawful commands. The rest is hyperbole and bullshit.
Someone mentioned the after-taser daze. Doesn't exist. As soon as the taser stops cycling, you are completely fine. that feeling can be so unexpected that it spikes your OODA loop, but you are fine, and can fight again.
Most people don't want to. That is why it is a pain compliance tool. You will get the pain again if you choose not to comply. Choosing not to comply a second time can be a sign of altered mental state, unbelievable self-righteousness or incredible stupidity.
Hmmm.... that sounded harsh, but looking at all these cases:
"I'm going to go mess with someone I don't like."
"The person in charge told me to leave but I don't want to."
"The poopy head called the cops. Fascist!"
"The cops are asking me to leave but I don't want to."
"They're telling me to leave, but I can do anything I want. My desire to make other people squirm is way more important than their right to run their meeting."
"The cops touched me! I'm gonna scream and sue!"
"Ow ow ow ow ow"
"Fascists"
None of these situations were created by the cops. At any time the person could have followed the law and no force would have been used... but the sense of entitlement, that I can do anything I want, no matter who it steps on and anyone who disagrees or tries to stop me is mean and evil...
It just makes me tired.
Rory
"Tasers cause 2 pin pricks one quarter of an inch deep and nothing else."
Except in this thread, some people died from them, and pain is not without consequences (see stabbing/ PTSD thread, not that I think this should deter taser use).
Why don't people realize where they've been tased and rip the things out, BTW?
Except in this thread, some people died from them, and pain is not without consequences (see stabbing/ PTSD thread, not that I think this should deter taser use).
Why don't people realize where they've been tased and rip the things out, BTW?
--Ian
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
That's not uncommon for law enforcement officers I believe. I've seen several news reporters volunteer as well. YouTube is full of clips of volunteer tasering, just do a search for "volunteer" and "taser". Here are some examples:Bill Glasheen wrote:I'm willing to bet a beer that Rory had himself tazed to find out first hand what it was like. Knowing Rory...
- Bill
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WjVtVys71m0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uqg1qZXkVcA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cRTGnIfZGZk
Note how quickly they recover after the charge is turned off. What I don't understand is how come the charge does not transmit to the people holding them. I'm assuming that it mainly causes localized pain and not a general shock to the entire body?
Just guessing here, but I'm gonna say far fewer people volunteer to feel what it is like to be kicked, punched, or clubbed by an officer.
Glenn
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
The device provides its own ground path, which is a path of much lower resistance. Plus the electrical signal in question is of a voltage, current, and - most importantly - frequency which isn't going to find a better ground path through you to the floor.Glenn wrote:
What I don't understand is how come the charge does not transmit to the people holding them.
That's precisely the point. In most cases, there is no permanent harm.Glenn wrote:
I'm gonna say far fewer people volunteer to feel what it is like to be kicked, punched, or clubbed by an officer.
I'm going to guess that it's even safer than pepper spray. When I volunteered to go through a pepper spray demo, I had a series of "pink eye" infections afterwards. I believe that the soft tissue in and around my eye was irritated and vulnerable to infection for an extended period of time. I didn't mind the seering but time-limited eye pain as much as the 3 or 4 trips to the doctor for antibiotic eye drops in the subsequent 6 months. People on the job get very uncomfortable when you show up with a nasty-looking eye.
As with all such tools, any a-hole can abuse them. Police departments need to work extra hard to make sure they hire good people and train them well. From Rory's post above, you can tell that the vast majority of those in the business care a great deal about their profession. And they rightfully get a little irritated when some spoiled brat plays the martyr role. I see less victim, and more drama queen.
- Bill
